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[Locked] Frederic 104 or Emile A239

OP Spookyleak

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Gonna have to say the Spartan hat John himself was better than himself and could have been Master Chief and the same spartan took out two Sangheili with his combat knife. Fred.
Emile, imo.
Emile has a high chance of winning the fight due to being a Cat 2 Spartan III. Especially given the fact that he is a CQC specialist.

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Seriously, The Cat 2's have:
  • would have met the requirements for the Spartan II program(Absolute Peak of Humanity)
  • Augmentations that are at the very least just as effective as the Spartan II's augmentations(Page 63 of Ghosts of Onyx)
  • Better training(Page 67 of Ghosts of Onyx), since they were trained by a Spartan II and the Spartan II's trainer
  • Learned from the Spartan II's current field tactics and operations while in training(Page 139 of GoO), to the date of when they begin to earn their own experience themselves after training
  • possess a certain motivation to succeed that the Spartan II's never had(Page 70 of Ghosts of Onyx)
  • posses their own decades of experience on top of what they learned from the Spartan II's
By comparison, Spartan II's have:
  • meet the requirements for the Spartan II program(Absolute peak of humanity)(Halo: Mythos page 60)
  • were given less advanced augmentations(Page 63 of Ghosts of Onyx)
  • were given less advanced training(Page 67 of Ghosts of Onyx)
  • earned decades of experience over time, while indirectly teaching the Spartan III's
I have plenty more evidence than just this. Mainly actual examples which reinforce why a Cat 2 Spartan III is technically the best overall in terms of prowess. Even sources showing how the experience gap is non-existent because of the unique aspects of the Spartan III's training.
My money's on Fred. Emile seems more bark than bite.
I say Fred.
Fred's a SPARTAN-II and trained with the Chief. Fred.
Hmm that's a tough one. I would have to say Fred though. He was considered somewhat of a master of CQC, making it look like a form of art.

That being said, we don't know Emile's feets, other than he was an cat-2 SIII. Certainly, nothing to scoff at.

At the very least, I would say it would be a close fight. And I bet it would look really good if they were fighting side-by-side.
Sealki wrote:
Fred's a SPARTAN-II and trained with the Chief. Fred.
Emile is just as genetically gifted as both of them and he was given significantly better training than both of them. Emile seriously has a high chance of taking this.

Hmm that's a tough one. I would have to say Fred though. He was considered somewhat of a master of CQC, making it look like a form of art.

That being said, we don't know Emile's feets, other than he was an cat-2 SIII. Certainly, nothing to scoff at.

At the very least, I would say it would be a close fight. And I bet it would look really good if they were fighting side-by-side.
Fred is the Spartan II's best CQC specially and it's safe to say that he is the most robust Spartan II. However, Fred doesn't really have any real CQC feats to go off of either in Mark V MJOLNIR or at least, nothing that hasn't been done in Halo canon already by other Spartans. If I can recall, Fred's best CQC feat is killing two Sangheili Minors.

However, regardless of the both of them lacking feats, there are things we can infer...

Mark-G313(Non-Cat 2) was considered a master by Spartan standards when it came to CQC. The Spartan II's set the spartan standard. Fred is a master compared to Spartan II's when it comes to CQC. Therefore, Mark and Fred would logically be relatively on par in this regard.

Now, if this is the case, a CAT 2 Spartan III - like Emile - would logically be better than Mark at CQC. Especially since Mark's "thing" wasn't CQC; it was sharp shooting. Which would logically make Emile a better CQC combatant than Fred. Personally, I'm going with Emile, but I know how the fan bases gets; regardless of logic.
KalEl 825B wrote:
Sealki wrote:
Hmm that's a tough one. I would have to say Fred though. He was considered somewhat of a master of CQC, making it look like a form of art.

That being said, we don't know Emile's feets, other than he was an cat-2 SIII. Certainly, nothing to scoff at.

At the very least, I would say it would be a close fight. And I bet it would look really good if they were fighting side-by-side.
Fred is the Spartan II's best CQC specially and it's safe to say that he is the most robust Spartan II. However, Fred doesn't really have any real CQC feats to go off of either in Mark V MJOLNIR or at least, nothing that hasn't been done in Halo canon already by other Spartans. If I can recall, Fred's best CQC feat is killing two Sangheili Minors.

However, regardless of the both of them lacking feats, there are things we can infer...

Mark-G313(Non-Cat 2) was considered a master by Spartan standards when it came to CQC. The Spartan II's set the spartan standard. Fred is a master compared to Spartan II's when it comes to CQC. Therefore, Mark and Fred would logically be relatively on par in this regard.

Now, if this is the case, a CAT 2 Spartan III - like Emile - would logically be better than Mark at CQC. Especially since Mark's "thing" wasn't CQC; it was sharp shooting. Which would logically make Emile a better CQC combatant than Fred. Personally, I'm going with Emile, but I know how the fan bases gets; regardless of logic.
Good try with that sneaky jibe you attempted, you clearly aren't reading all of my post. =/ I never said you were wrong in your post (I never even addressed you), I merely said it would probably be a close fight, but I would wager Fred would eventually take it...but that's just my opinion. I could be wrong, I guess we'll never know (unless 343 decided to weigh in).

Going to feets, the two Sangheili Minors you refer to I assume are of the Halo Legends: Package episode. Here I would also add, this was on top of fighting Thel 'Lodamee who was quite clearly skilled (perhaps on the level of an Arbiter). He also has battled Brutes close range as well as Promethean Knights. There is also nothing that suggests that Jorge was inferior to the rest of his Noble Team.
Fred, no question.
Good try with that sneaky jibe you attempted, you clearly aren't reading all of my post. =/ I never said you were wrong in your post (I never even addressed you), I merely said it would probably be a close fight, but I would wager Fred would eventually take it...but that's just my opinion. I could be wrong, I guess we'll never know (unless 343 decided to weigh in).
That's why I said Emile would "logically" be better; because Emile is. Sadly, it wouldn't shock me if 343i didn't acknowledge their own canon though.

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Going to feets, the two Sangheili Minors you refer to I assume are of the Halo Legends: Package episode. Here I would also add, this was on top of fighting Thel 'Lodamee who was quite clearly skilled (perhaps on the level of an Arbiter).

He also has battled Brutes close range as well as Promethean Knights.
The problem with this is Lodamee survived, which means that Fred clearly must not have fared well against him. However, since we never saw anything, we can't actually take anything away from this, except they both lived. In other words, bringing up Lodamee is pointless.

Fred battled that Brute and Promethean Knight when he was in Mark VI and Gen 2 respectively. In other words, there is no basis for comparison here since we've only seen Emile in Mark V MJOLNIR.

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There is also nothing that suggests that Jorge was inferior to the rest of his Noble Team.
There actually is. Jorge received inferior training compared to what the other members of Noble team received. There is also the fact that he took orders from Spartan III's in the command structure.

On top of this, Noble Six has displayed striking power that no other Spartan has shown(this includes Jorge) in Mark V MJOLNIR. Such as incapacitating a Sangheili general with a single rear elbow strike.
The one that didn't slowly move around shooting at a dead body, shouting taunts while not checking his motion tracker and being unaware of his surroundings then getting stabbed as a result.
erickyboo wrote:
The one that didn't slowly move around shooting at a dead body, shouting taunts while not checking his motion tracker and being unaware of his surroundings then getting stabbed as a result.
This can actually be explained away for a few reasons. The Zealots that engaged Noble team on Reach were quite easily some of the most physically impressive Sangheili we've seen in Halo. Such as Holding up half a ton with one arm. There prowess and tactics reflects this as well since it's safe to assume that the Field Marshal from Winter contingency was hunting down Noble team through out the game.

This is even reflected in the Zealots actions since the first Zealot that Emile killed was deliberately used as a distraction for the other Zealot to kill him. So, It's really not Emiles fault. It was a well coordinated strike directly on him specifically.

On top of this, I'm fairly positive it's canon that the motion tracker can't pick up slow moving targets, which further reinforces how well the strike was planned out against Emile.
KalEl 825B wrote:
erickyboo wrote:
The one that didn't slowly move around shooting at a dead body, shouting taunts while not checking his motion tracker and being unaware of his surroundings then getting stabbed as a result.
This can actually be explained away for a few reasons. The Zealots that engaged Noble team on Reach were quite easily some of the most physically impressive Sangheili we've seen in Halo. Such as Holding up half a ton with one arm. There prowess and tactics reflects this as well since it's safe to assume that the Field Marshal from Winter contingency was hunting down Noble team through out the game.

This is even reflected in the Zealots actions since the first Zealot that Emile killed was deliberately used as a distraction for the other Zealot to kill him. So, It's really not Emiles fault. It was a well coordinated strike directly on him specifically.

On top of this, I'm fairly positive it's canon that the motion tracker can't pick up slow moving targets, which further reinforces how well the strike was planned out against Emile.
https://youtu.be/hmqyfQv3EXc?t=51s
This is a serious lack of situational awareness, that one shouldn't even have to be a Spartan to have. A dropship is right on top of him... one enemy already dropped on him, okay he's still alive. Why is he taking sooo long to get out? and to fire? And why would he stand there slowly saying who's next instead of scanning for a next target?
No...

Fred is also more capable thanks to his armour.
erickyboo wrote:
KalEl 825B wrote:
erickyboo wrote:
The one that didn't slowly move around shooting at a dead body, shouting taunts while not checking his motion tracker and being unaware of his surroundings then getting stabbed as a result.
This can actually be explained away for a few reasons. The Zealots that engaged Noble team on Reach were quite easily some of the most physically impressive Sangheili we've seen in Halo. Such as Holding up half a ton with one arm. There prowess and tactics reflects this as well since it's safe to assume that the Field Marshal from Winter contingency was hunting down Noble team through out the game.

This is even reflected in the Zealots actions since the first Zealot that Emile killed was deliberately used as a distraction for the other Zealot to kill him. So, It's really not Emiles fault. It was a well coordinated strike directly on him specifically.

On top of this, I'm fairly positive it's canon that the motion tracker can't pick up slow moving targets, which further reinforces how well the strike was planned out against Emile.
https://youtu.be/hmqyfQv3EXc?t=51sThis is a serious lack of situational awareness, that one shouldn't even have to be a Spartan to have. A dropship is right on top of him... one enemy already dropped on him, okay he's still alive. Why is he taking sooo long to get out? and to fire? And why would he stand there slowly saying who's next instead of scanning for a next target?
No...

Fred is also more capable thanks to his armour.
How is it Emile's fault for lack of situational awareness, when measures were clearly taken by the enemy to get around that specifically? The enemy that dropped first was purposely out of Emile's field of vision. And again, it's fair to assume that the motion tracker canonically can't see slow moving targets; the Zealot that killed him had the element of surprise and Emile wasn't aware of it's presences because it avoided the motion tracker.

The obvious answer for why it took so long is dramatic effect. However, the in-universe reason is that the Zealot probably avoided his motion tracker and he didn't see it drop. It makes the most sense.

Also, Equipment doesn't define the individual since anyone can wear it.
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That's why I said Emile would "logically" be better; because Emile is. Sadly, it wouldn't shock me if 343i didn't acknowledge their own canon though.
The problem with this is Lodamee survived, which means that Fred clearly must not have fared well against him. However, since we never saw anything, we can't actually take anything away from this, except they both lived. In other words, bringing up Lodamee is pointless.Fred battled that Brute and Promethean Knight when he was in Mark VI and Gen 2 respectively. In other words, there is no basis for comparison here since we've only seen Emile in Mark V MJOLNIR.
Except that a few Sangheili are allowed to be trained with the use of an energy sword. The fact that Fred bests two of them on top of surviving Lodamee unscathed speaks volumes to his skill.
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There actually is. Jorge received inferior training compared to what the other members of Noble team received. There is also the fact that he took orders from Spartan III's in the command structure.On top of this, Noble Six has displayed striking power that no other Spartan has shown(this includes Jorge) in Mark V MJOLNIR. Such as incapacitating a Sangheili general with a single rear elbow strike.
So who cares who he takes orders from? They take orders from Colonel Holland and eventually Halsey. John took orders from Keyes, Hood, (even Del Rio and Silva). Being part of a military hierarchy doesn't mean you are strongest or weakest. Heck going by that logic, you essentially admit that the Gammas are automatically inferior to SIIs because they take orders from the SIIs.

And we aren't talking about Noble Six, we are talking about Emile. Noble Six was clearly a paragon of his kind (even Halsey and Cortana admitting he was superior to the rest of Noble Team, ranking him "hyper lethal" with only one other having achieved that (safe to say it's John)). Emile got bested by 2 Zealots because of his arrogance and lack of awareness...clearly flaws that would likely impact him in battle...which cost him his own life.

And yet again, there is nothing that ever suggested that Jorge was inferior to the rest of Noble Team (except Noble Six, but everyone one of Noble Team was inferior to him). He was considered an equal among them...them being Cat-2s. And it is even stated (you stated this in your post) that Cat-2s are more equal to SIIs than regular SIIIs.

And Fred's massive experience has only helped him. Claiming it's meaningless is just short-sighted. A common saying is that "experience is one's best teacher." And Fred has this in spades. Emile doesn't quite have this (certainly not nearly the amount Fred has). This would still benefit Fred way more than it would Emile.

But I think it's safe to say that Fred given Mark VI or GenII armor would best Emile. If he was still in Mark V, as I said, I think it would be very close, but I do think Emile would still lose...Not by a lot though, it would be a very close fight.
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That's why I said Emile would "logically" be better; because Emile is. Sadly, it wouldn't shock me if 343i didn't acknowledge their own canon though.
The problem with this is Lodamee survived, which means that Fred clearly must not have fared well against him. However, since we never saw anything, we can't actually take anything away from this, except they both lived. In other words, bringing up Lodamee is pointless.Fred battled that Brute and Promethean Knight when he was in Mark VI and Gen 2 respectively. In other words, there is no basis for comparison here since we've only seen Emile in Mark V MJOLNIR.
Except that a few Sangheili are allowed to be trained with the use of an energy sword. The fact that Fred bests two of them on top of surviving Lodamee unscathed speaks volumes to his skill.
Source? I'm pretty sure all Sangheili are trained with energy swords from childhood. It's not a special privilege. And since it's only two minors, it really doesn't say anything substantial about his skills in CQC.

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So who cares who he takes orders from? They take orders from Colonel Holland and eventually Halsey. John took orders from Keyes, Hood, (even Del Rio and Silva). Being part of a military hierarchy doesn't mean you are strongest or weakest. Heck going by that logic, you essentially admit that the Gammas are automatically inferior to SIIs because they take orders from the SIIs.
The people who transferred him to the team. The Fireteam rank structure was logically determined by ability. The Gamma Spartan III's aren't Cat 2's, which means that they are on par with Blueteam. Since they are on par, they can pretty much just fold into the team with no complications.

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Emile got bested by 2 Zealots because of his arrogance and lack of awareness...clearly flaws that would likely impact him in battle...which cost him his own life.
As already stated above, the Zealot who killed Emile used the other as a distraction. The second Zealot also clearly avoided his motion tracker. It's not a flaw on Emile's part as it's excellent strategic planning on the Zealots part.

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And yet again, there is nothing that ever suggested that Jorge was inferior to the rest of Noble Team (except Noble Six, but everyone one of Noble Team was inferior to him). He was considered an equal among them...them being Cat-2s.

And it is even stated (you stated this in your post) that Cat-2s are more equal to SIIs than regular SIIIs.
There is, you're just ignoring all of the evidence I provided you. What sources do you have that states that Jorge was equal among Noble Team?

No, I stated that Cat 2's are logically better than Spartan II's, since Cat 2 Spartan III's are basically Spartan II's with better training.

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And Fred's massive experience has only helped him. Claiming it's meaningless is just short-sighted. A common saying is that "experience is one's best teacher." And Fred has this in spades. Emile doesn't quite have this (certainly not nearly the amount Fred has). This would still benefit Fred way more than it would Emile.
I never claimed it's meaningless. However, Emile learned from Fred's experience while he was in training which means that they would be both have identical content knowledge by the time Emile got out of training. Emile was taught by Fred(indirectly) and he also has his own experience on top of that.

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But I think it's safe to say that Fred given Mark VI or GenII armor would best Emile. If he was still in Mark V, as I said, I think it would be very close, but I do think Emile would still lose...Not by a lot though, it would be a very close fight.
That's equipment, which has absolutely nothing top do with the individual in question. I disagree. If they are both in equal armor, Emile would logically have the advantage over Fred.
Maybe a close fight one's able to kill the other but drops dead after very few seconds afterwards. I'd say Fred.
In Halo 6, or whatever comes next, id like to see a cutscene where Fred pulls his knives out and goes to work on some Prometheans.
I prefer Fred over Emile, but both are cool in thier own right.
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