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[Locked] How'd the Infinity penetrate the Didacts Flagship?

OP M0ckingDrag0n

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This should be a spoiler topic -.-think of the others!
sucking up the energy of an entire universe
Where is your lore source for this? I'm not calling you out or anything, I just can't find it.
Yeah I know how it sounds. I had doubts too when I first found out but it's actually true.

Direct quotes from the books:

Halo Silentium; ch. 33.

"As the reflective orb rotates beneath my ship, I see also the outstretched, feather-like plumes of vacuum energy pylons, drawing in the potential of an infinity of alternate realities ... aborting untold numbers of nascent universes to supply Requiem’s power. Strange that these cosmic deaths have never before struck me as cruel and futile. All of Forerunner technology has been made possible by drawing down vacuum energy. My own life, all that I know, arises out of cosmic predation."

If you want to go more into detail, this guy literally explains everything: https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/forerunner-feat-thread.236388/page-2#post-10659158

Here's a quick YouTube video if you don't want to read: https://youtu.be/ASY-QF1J-vM
Ah, that explains why I couldn't find it, I'm really not a fan of that trilogy.
I know this has probably been brought up a lot before but no one really talks about just how unbelievably powerful the Didacts Flagship is. The Mantles Approach literally eats entire universes for power and if the Infinity actually did penetrate the ship with its shields on, that either says the Infinity had a Forerunner power source on board and was able to transfer it through its MAC or the Didacts ship wasn't functioning properly and had its shields down which I believe is more likely. If those aren't true, then it's a very massive plothole. Note that I'm talking about its shields, the hulls being penetrated I can understand but the shields if they were even on I can't.
The infinity is part Forerunner actually. I forget which book describes it but the infinity is a mix of forerunner tech and other tech that has been scavenged over the years. I'm wondering if it isn't part ancient human as well. I say that because other than what is on halopedia about the ancient human ship ONI was investigating not much more is given on it so i wonder.
I know this has probably been brought up a lot before but no one really talks about just how unbelievably powerful the Didacts Flagship is. The Mantles Approach literally eats entire universes for power and if the Infinity actually did penetrate the ship with its shields on, that either says the Infinity had a Forerunner power source on board and was able to transfer it through its MAC or the Didacts ship wasn't functioning properly and had its shields down which I believe is more likely. If those aren't true, then it's a very massive plothole. Note that I'm talking about its shields, the hulls being penetrated I can understand but the shields if they were even on I can't.
The infinity is part Forerunner actually. I forget which book describes it but the infinity is a mix of forerunner tech and other tech that has been scavenged over the years. I'm wondering if it isn't part ancient human as well. I say that because other than what is on halopedia about the ancient human ship ONI was investigating not much more is given on it so i wonder.
The Infinity’s only Forerunner components are it’s slip-space engine and allegedly in communication’s array. This is specified in Spartan Ops, Thursday War and WarFleet.

Everything else (weapons, power generator, shields, armour, life support systems etc etc) is 100% human tech, which is a double edged sword in my opinion.

Infinity is not reverse engineered from alien technology like Covenant ships. It literally has alien technology glued into its superstructure and hooked up to the power source, and the crew has no idea how it works. We’ve seen Forerunner technology in the wrong hands used to remotely disable Infinity before, so this Forerunner tech is not an advantage in my opinion.
Infinity didn't use MAC rounds to penetrate the hull of Mantle's Approach; it used some type of beam weapon. If it did indeed fire MAC rounds then they were unlike any MAC round ever seen before, as the beam hit the hull of Mantle's Approach and took a moment before triggering an explosion.

In regards to the ship's shields, just because the Mantle's Approach draws power from other realities doesn't mean that each individual system on the ship contains the power of a universe. Consider MJOLNIR energy shields: they're generated from a nuclear fusion reactor in the suit, but it doesn't take a nuclear bomb to penetrate them. They can be penetrated with enough small arms fire or plasma bursts. The power source and the system drawing power are not a 1:1 ratio. Vacuum energy powers not only the shields of Mantle's Approach, but everything else. While Mantle's Approach no doubt boasts a more impressive shielding system than any other ship we've seen in Halo, it doesn't mean it's completely infallible. Ultimately, Infinity was only UNSC ship able to punch a small hole through the shields with its most powerful weapon (it's not like that shot took down the entire shielding system). It barely damaged the ship. That in of itself is a testament to just how powerful Mantle's Approach was. Obviously, in a direct fight, Infinity would lose easily. In fact, the Didact probably considered the entire UNSC too little a threat to devote attention too, which is probably why he didn't actively target UNSC ships and left their destruction to his ship's automated defense systems.

So, in conclusion, it's not necessarily the case that the shields on Mantle's Approach weren't functioning properly, or that Infinity's forward armaments were Forerunner technology. Infinity had just enough firepower to barely punch through the shields and inflict a negligible amount of damage to the ship.
Chimera30 wrote:
Infinity didn't use MAC rounds to penetrate the hull of Mantle's Approach; it used some type of beam weapon. If it did indeed fire MAC rounds then they were unlike any MAC round ever seen before, as the beam hit the hull of Mantle's Approach and took a moment before triggering an explosion.

In regards to the ship's shields, just because the Mantle's Approach draws power from other realities doesn't mean that each individual system on the ship contains the power of a universe. Consider MJOLNIR energy shields: they're generated from a nuclear fusion reactor in the suit, but it doesn't take a nuclear bomb to penetrate them. They can be penetrated with enough small arms fire or plasma bursts. The power source and the system drawing power are not a 1:1 ratio. Vacuum energy powers not only the shields of Mantle's Approach, but everything else. While Mantle's Approach no doubt boasts a more impressive shielding system than any other ship we've seen in Halo, it doesn't mean it's completely infallible. Ultimately, Infinity was only UNSC ship able to punch a small hole through the shields with its most powerful weapon (it's not like that shot took down the entire shielding system). It barely damaged the ship. That in of itself is a testament to just how powerful Mantle's Approach was. Obviously, in a direct fight, Infinity would lose easily. In fact, the Didact probably considered the entire UNSC too little a threat to devote attention too, which is probably why he didn't actively target UNSC ships and left their destruction to his ship's automated defense systems.

So, in conclusion, it's not necessarily the case that the shields on Mantle's Approach weren't functioning properly, or that Infinity's forward armaments were Forerunner technology. Infinity had just enough firepower to barely punch through the shields and inflict a negligible amount of damage to the ship.
While I agree for the most part, Infinity definitely used MAC rounds. No source I've seen says Infinity has energy weapons of any kind. As far as I'm aware, the only UNSC ship equipped with energy weapons is the Anlace-class Frigate.
Jebsquared wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
Infinity didn't use MAC rounds to penetrate the hull of Mantle's Approach; it used some type of beam weapon. If it did indeed fire MAC rounds then they were unlike any MAC round ever seen before, as the beam hit the hull of Mantle's Approach and took a moment before triggering an explosion.

In regards to the ship's shields, just because the Mantle's Approach draws power from other realities doesn't mean that each individual system on the ship contains the power of a universe. Consider MJOLNIR energy shields: they're generated from a nuclear fusion reactor in the suit, but it doesn't take a nuclear bomb to penetrate them. They can be penetrated with enough small arms fire or plasma bursts. The power source and the system drawing power are not a 1:1 ratio. Vacuum energy powers not only the shields of Mantle's Approach, but everything else. While Mantle's Approach no doubt boasts a more impressive shielding system than any other ship we've seen in Halo, it doesn't mean it's completely infallible. Ultimately, Infinity was only UNSC ship able to punch a small hole through the shields with its most powerful weapon (it's not like that shot took down the entire shielding system). It barely damaged the ship. That in of itself is a testament to just how powerful Mantle's Approach was. Obviously, in a direct fight, Infinity would lose easily. In fact, the Didact probably considered the entire UNSC too little a threat to devote attention too, which is probably why he didn't actively target UNSC ships and left their destruction to his ship's automated defense systems.

So, in conclusion, it's not necessarily the case that the shields on Mantle's Approach weren't functioning properly, or that Infinity's forward armaments were Forerunner technology. Infinity had just enough firepower to barely punch through the shields and inflict a negligible amount of damage to the ship.
While I agree for the most part, Infinity definitely used MAC rounds. No source I've seen says Infinity has energy weapons of any kind. As far as I'm aware, the only UNSC ship equipped with energy weapons is the Anlace-class Frigate.
I agree that no source suggests Infinity has an energy-based beam weapon. However, when you actually watch the scene, it looks nothing like firing a MAC round. It looks like twin energy beams. Now, while "gameplay isn't canon" is a common phrase used to justify discrepancies between playing the games and established canon, this was a cutscene. We have established canon on what MAC rounds look like when being fired, and what's shown by the Infinity in that cutscene looks too different to be a MAC round.
Chimera30 wrote:
Jebsquared wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
Infinity didn't use MAC rounds to penetrate the hull of Mantle's Approach; it used some type of beam weapon. If it did indeed fire MAC rounds then they were unlike any MAC round ever seen before, as the beam hit the hull of Mantle's Approach and took a moment before triggering an explosion.

In regards to the ship's shields, just because the Mantle's Approach draws power from other realities doesn't mean that each individual system on the ship contains the power of a universe. Consider MJOLNIR energy shields: they're generated from a nuclear fusion reactor in the suit, but it doesn't take a nuclear bomb to penetrate them. They can be penetrated with enough small arms fire or plasma bursts. The power source and the system drawing power are not a 1:1 ratio. Vacuum energy powers not only the shields of Mantle's Approach, but everything else. While Mantle's Approach no doubt boasts a more impressive shielding system than any other ship we've seen in Halo, it doesn't mean it's completely infallible. Ultimately, Infinity was only UNSC ship able to punch a small hole through the shields with its most powerful weapon (it's not like that shot took down the entire shielding system). It barely damaged the ship. That in of itself is a testament to just how powerful Mantle's Approach was. Obviously, in a direct fight, Infinity would lose easily. In fact, the Didact probably considered the entire UNSC too little a threat to devote attention too, which is probably why he didn't actively target UNSC ships and left their destruction to his ship's automated defense systems.

So, in conclusion, it's not necessarily the case that the shields on Mantle's Approach weren't functioning properly, or that Infinity's forward armaments were Forerunner technology. Infinity had just enough firepower to barely punch through the shields and inflict a negligible amount of damage to the ship.
While I agree for the most part, Infinity definitely used MAC rounds. No source I've seen says Infinity has energy weapons of any kind. As far as I'm aware, the only UNSC ship equipped with energy weapons is the Anlace-class Frigate.
I agree that no source suggests Infinity has an energy-based beam weapon. However, when you actually watch the scene, it looks nothing like firing a MAC round. It looks like twin energy beams. Now, while "gameplay isn't canon" is a common phrase used to justify discrepancies between playing the games and established canon, this was a cutscene. We have established canon on what MAC rounds look like when being fired, and what's shown by the Infinity in that cutscene looks too different to be a MAC round.
I think that it's far more likely that the person responsible for that cutscene simply took a bit of liberty with Infinity's weapons. It's only been about 4 years since the end of the Human-Covenant War. I accept that Infinity already has energy shields because I got the impression that we already knew how to make energy shields before the war, but couldn't solve the power demands. However, we were nowhere near having energy weapons on par with the Covenant Energy Projectors by 2553, and I don't think Infinity would have them.
Jebsquared wrote:
I think that it's far more likely that the person responsible for that cutscene simply took a bit of liberty with Infinity's weapons. It's only been about 4 years since the end of the Human-Covenant War. I accept that Infinity already has energy shields because I got the impression that we already knew how to make energy shields before the war, but couldn't solve the power demands. However, we were nowhere near having energy weapons on par with the Covenant Energy Projectors by 2553, and I don't think Infinity would have them.
Maybe, but that's the kind of thing I like to see explicitly stated to avoid confusion. Even Halopedia hesitates to say that the weapons the Infinity used against Mantle's Approach were MAC rounds.
Chimera30 wrote:
Jebsquared wrote:
Chimera30 wrote:
Infinity didn't use MAC rounds to penetrate the hull of Mantle's Approach; it used some type of beam weapon. If it did indeed fire MAC rounds then they were unlike any MAC round ever seen before, as the beam hit the hull of Mantle's Approach and took a moment before triggering an explosion.

In regards to the ship's shields, just because the Mantle's Approach draws power from other realities doesn't mean that each individual system on the ship contains the power of a universe. Consider MJOLNIR energy shields: they're generated from a nuclear fusion reactor in the suit, but it doesn't take a nuclear bomb to penetrate them. They can be penetrated with enough small arms fire or plasma bursts. The power source and the system drawing power are not a 1:1 ratio. Vacuum energy powers not only the shields of Mantle's Approach, but everything else. While Mantle's Approach no doubt boasts a more impressive shielding system than any other ship we've seen in Halo, it doesn't mean it's completely infallible. Ultimately, Infinity was only UNSC ship able to punch a small hole through the shields with its most powerful weapon (it's not like that shot took down the entire shielding system). It barely damaged the ship. That in of itself is a testament to just how powerful Mantle's Approach was. Obviously, in a direct fight, Infinity would lose easily. In fact, the Didact probably considered the entire UNSC too little a threat to devote attention too, which is probably why he didn't actively target UNSC ships and left their destruction to his ship's automated defense systems.

So, in conclusion, it's not necessarily the case that the shields on Mantle's Approach weren't functioning properly, or that Infinity's forward armaments were Forerunner technology. Infinity had just enough firepower to barely punch through the shields and inflict a negligible amount of damage to the ship.
While I agree for the most part, Infinity definitely used MAC rounds. No source I've seen says Infinity has energy weapons of any kind. As far as I'm aware, the only UNSC ship equipped with energy weapons is the Anlace-class Frigate.
I agree that no source suggests Infinity has an energy-based beam weapon. However, when you actually watch the scene, it looks nothing like firing a MAC round. It looks like twin energy beams. Now, while "gameplay isn't canon" is a common phrase used to justify discrepancies between playing the games and established canon, this was a cutscene. We have established canon on what MAC rounds look like when being fired, and what's shown by the Infinity in that cutscene looks too different to be a MAC round.
I went back and replayed the level after I saw this post yesterday. It does indeed look like a beam weapon of some sort used in the cut scene. In other cut scenes where you were able to see mac rounds used in past halo games there were no beams. I must agree that they are energy beams. Nice catch by the way. I didn't notice that at first but when i went back it was starring me right in the face. Not sure how i missed that.
Chimera30 wrote:
Infinity didn't use MAC rounds to penetrate the hull of Mantle's Approach; it used some type of beam weapon. If it did indeed fire MAC rounds then they were unlike any MAC round ever seen before, as the beam hit the hull of Mantle's Approach and took a moment before triggering an explosion.

In regards to the ship's shields, just because the Mantle's Approach draws power from other realities doesn't mean that each individual system on the ship contains the power of a universe. Consider MJOLNIR energy shields: they're generated from a nuclear fusion reactor in the suit, but it doesn't take a nuclear bomb to penetrate them. They can be penetrated with enough small arms fire or plasma bursts. The power source and the system drawing power are not a 1:1 ratio. Vacuum energy powers not only the shields of Mantle's Approach, but everything else. While Mantle's Approach no doubt boasts a more impressive shielding system than any other ship we've seen in Halo, it doesn't mean it's completely infallible. Ultimately, Infinity was only UNSC ship able to punch a small hole through the shields with its most powerful weapon (it's not like that shot took down the entire shielding system). It barely damaged the ship. That in of itself is a testament to just how powerful Mantle's Approach was. Obviously, in a direct fight, Infinity would lose easily. In fact, the Didact probably considered the entire UNSC too little a threat to devote attention too, which is probably why he didn't actively target UNSC ships and left their destruction to his ship's automated defense systems.

So, in conclusion, it's not necessarily the case that the shields on Mantle's Approach weren't functioning properly, or that Infinity's forward armaments were Forerunner technology. Infinity had just enough firepower to barely punch through the shields and inflict a negligible amount of damage to the ship.
Possible but theres several things that make me believe that's not the case like the fact that they can consume multiple universes worth of energy in such a short time, I see no other place they could've use that energy on except for shielding. Even if they only consumed 0.0000000(+ millions more of zeros)1% of that energy, it would still have vastly more energy than a single Galaxy which still wouldn't make sense if the infinity broke through its shields. What's even more confusing is what other system would possibly need even 1% the energy of a universe?

Here's a quote from Halo 4:

John-117: "Infinity, the Didact just closed off our entrance to the Composer."
Lasky (COM): "We could try punching a hole in that hull plating, but Infinity won't be able to get a clear shot with all that flak."
John-117: "We'll take care of the guns."

It's kinda weird that they made no reference to the shields like it was never there which might suggest the ship never had its shields on. Also when the Infinity hit the MA, there didn't seem any sort of shield flare typically seem when shields get shot down.
Possible but theres several things that make me believe that's not the case like the fact that they can consume multiple universes worth of energy in such a short time, I see no other place they could've use that energy on except for shielding. Even if they only consumed 0.0000000(+ millions more of zeros)1% of that energy, it would still have vastly more energy than a single Galaxy which still wouldn't make sense if the infinity broke through its shields. What's even more confusing is what other system would possibly need even 1% the energy of a universe?
I don't see why you don't think every system on that ship (shields, propulsion, weapons, charging the Composer, etc.) would be drawing vacuum energy. But again, even if most of the energy was being used to power the shields, it doesn't mean the shields possessed all the energy of an alternate reality at the same time. Like any energy source, the power flows at a rate, keeping the shields active so long as as power continues to flow.
Here's a quote from Halo 4:

John-117: "Infinity, the Didact just closed off our entrance to the Composer."
Lasky (COM): "We could try punching a hole in that hull plating, but Infinity won't be able to get a clear shot with all that flak."
John-117: "We'll take care of the guns."

It's kinda weird that they made no reference to the shields like it was never there which might suggest the ship never had its shields on. Also when the Infinity hit the MA, there didn't seem any sort of shield flare typically seem when shields get shot down.
They do make a reference, though, to other weapons being ineffective. Also from Halo 4, you hear radio chatter:

FLEETCOM: "Orbital Defense Command, this is FLEETCOM. Hostile inbound; proceed to condition red."
ODC: "This is Earth Orbital Defense. MAC defenses ineffective against enemy vessel. It's still approaching!"

So this means that the stations like Cairo were unable to affect the Didact's ship. Then later, Lasky offers to try to punch a hole through Didact's hull, but given that he said "try", he was unsure of whether it would work. He hoped it would work because the main guns on the Infinity likely were more advanced than anything else the UNSC had thrown at the Didact up to that point. As for the lack of shield flaring, when have we ever seen shield flares on vessels the size of ships? It could have very well just been an oversight in the cinematic, similar to how the Infinity was shown to be firing a directed energy weapon despite having no such armament ever listed. But even if it was the case that it was a cinematic oversight to not show shield flaring, it's not necessarily a plothole that Infinity could punch a small hole through the shields, because nowhere is it stated that the Didact's shields possess a resistive capacity equal to the energy produced by a universe, or--for that matter--greater than anything the UNSC was capable of throwing at it. Our only reference is, in fact, H4, which establishes that only Infinity had the weapons to do so, and everything else was ineffective. Your issue with this is predicated on the assumption that the Didact's shields are capable of resisting firepower equivalent in energy to its energy source, which is a pretty big assumption
Closed at OP's request.
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