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[Locked] I am a monument to all your sins

OP cabr00kie

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What does the gravemind meant by saying that ?
Well a monument is like a statue or building to commemorate something or someone.
And he defines himself as a monument.
And "to all your sins" is pretty straightforward.
So he's pretty much saying he exists to commemorate all of our wrongdoings.

Which is very reminiscent of the devil.

I'm sure the line was used in another piece of literature, like Dante's inferno or something.
Actually, I might check that out. But ultimately I believe this is what Bungie were getting at: He's almost like a modern-day (or should I say future-day) representation of the devil.
The sins to which Gravemind may attribute to us is the Precursor's belief that all of their creations should possess individualism and free will at their very core. This backfired against them when Forerunners deemed themselves the rightful inheritors of the Mantle. The Precursors faced mass genocide when they decided to instead place that burden on the shoulders of humanity instead of their sister race, the Forerunners. Then, the Forerunner waged war on the Precursor's creations throughout the Milky Way, including humanity, to firmly establish themselves as possessing the Mantle.

Actually, I think Halopedia can sum this up a little better than I can:
Quote:
The Gravemind often touts to others that the Flood represent peace and salvation. At the same time, however, it is very much aware of the pain and suffering its victims are subjected to. It sees this as fair retribution for the Forerunners' crimes against its Precursor ancestors. According to the Gravemind, the Flood, down to its very nature and the suffering it inflicts, serves as an appropriate reflection and reminder of the pain that the Precursors ultimately brought on themselves by giving their creations free will; it considers itself a "monument" to the sins of other sentient beings. It regards the Flood as a continuation of the Precursors' desire to create life, but unlike before, the life they bring forth would no longer possess free will or individuality. Embittered by the Forerunners' rebellion, the Gravemind saw the Flood as a means to unite all life into one, so that no conflict or competition would ever arise again and that all life would coexist peacefully as one.
Grizzlei wrote:
The sins to which Gravemind may attribute to us is the Precursor's belief that all of their creations should possess individualism and free will at their very core. This backfired against them when Forerunners deemed themselves the rightful inheritors of the Mantle. The Precursors faced mass genocide when they decided to instead place that burden on the shoulders of humanity instead of their sister race, the Forerunners. Then, the Forerunner waged war on the Precursor's creations throughout the Milky Way, including humanity, to firmly establish themselves as possessing the Mantle.

Actually, I think Halopedia can sum this up a little better than I can:
Quote:
The Gravemind often touts to others that the Flood represent peace and salvation. At the same time, however, it is very much aware of the pain and suffering its victims are subjected to. It sees this as fair retribution for the Forerunners' crimes against its Precursor ancestors. According to the Gravemind, the Flood, down to its very nature and the suffering it inflicts, serves as an appropriate reflection and reminder of the pain that the Precursors ultimately brought on themselves by giving their creations free will; it considers itself a "monument" to the sins of other sentient beings. It regards the Flood as a continuation of the Precursors' desire to create life, but unlike before, the life they bring forth would no longer possess free will or individuality. Embittered by the Forerunners' rebellion, the Gravemind saw the Flood as a means to unite all life into one, so that no conflict or competition would ever arise again and that all life would coexist peacefully as one.

But the statement is still a little odd considering it's directed at a Human. It would have been more appropriate if it had been directed at a Forerunner. The Gravemind seemed pleased with their revenge over the Forerunners and while the Primordial deemed it best for all to be integrated into the Flood, Humanity was going to be given the chance of proving themselves worthy of the Mantle.
Wow, forget what I wrote- I was just rambling- this is great! ^

But hmph, it almost seems reminiscent of The Garden of Eden; and the Gravemind is represented as God, not the Devil.

Like, how his creations sinned (Adam & Eve ate the Apple), and now he doesn't let his 'victims' (Christians) to have free will (need to confess your sins, etc.).

Grizzlei, is this just under Gravemind in Halopedia? I'd love to take a read.
The Gravemind can call upon memories of those consumed. So it-in a sense- is a literal incarnation of woe
Baartvedt wrote:
But the statement is still a little odd considering it's directed at a Human. It would have been more appropriate if it had been directed at a Forerunner. The Gravemind seemed pleased with their revenge over the Forerunners and while the Primordial deemed it best for all to be integrated into the Flood, Humanity was going to be given the chance of proving themselves worthy of the Mantle.
That's more than a reasonable conclusion, but I was thinking of applying the way that 343 Guilty Spark talks to John throughout the Covenant Trilogy to this encounter. Guilty Spark looked at John-117 and, while we saw an otherwise ordinary human, he saw someone else entirely; speaking to the Spartan like they had been long estranged from each other. He references conversations that John could have never had in his 41 years of existence isolated in the human sphere of influence, or suggests that he should have know technical details that were privileged to a very few. The Gravemind can reach across the stars, peer into your mind, and speak with awe-inspiring eloquence and reverence. I think that Gravemind saw that very same someone in John-117 that Guilty Spark did.
Wow, forget what I wrote- I was just rambling- this is great! ^

But hmph, it almost seems reminiscent of The Garden of Eden; and the Gravemind is represented as God, not the Devil.

Like, how his creations sinned (Adam & Eve ate the Apple), and now he doesn't let his 'victims' (Christians) to have free will (need to confess your sins, etc.).

Grizzlei, is this just under Gravemind in Halopedia? I'd love to take a read.
wow I know there is a lot of references to the Bible in halo, but this just takes it to a whole new level
Grizzlei wrote:
Baartvedt wrote:
But the statement is still a little odd considering it's directed at a Human. It would have been more appropriate if it had been directed at a Forerunner. The Gravemind seemed pleased with their revenge over the Forerunners and while the Primordial deemed it best for all to be integrated into the Flood, Humanity was going to be given the chance of proving themselves worthy of the Mantle.


That's more than a reasonable conclusion, but I was thinking of applying the way that 343 Guilty Spark talks to John throughout the Covenant Trilogy to this encounter. Guilty Spark looked at John-117 and, while we saw an otherwise ordinary human, he saw someone else entirely; speaking to the Spartan like they had been long estranged from each other. He references conversations that John could have never had in his 41 years of existence isolated in the human sphere of influence, or suggests that he should have know technical details that were privileged to a very few. The Gravemind can reach across the stars, peer into your mind, and speak with awe-inspiring eloquence and reverence. I think that Gravemind saw that very same someone in John-117 that Guilty Spark did.


No chance you've seen this video, is there? About 7 minutes long.

Spoiler:
Show
Answers what I've highlighted. It's a pretty convincing theory.
Grizzlei wrote:
Baartvedt wrote:
But the statement is still a little odd considering it's directed at a Human. It would have been more appropriate if it had been directed at a Forerunner. The Gravemind seemed pleased with their revenge over the Forerunners and while the Primordial deemed it best for all to be integrated into the Flood, Humanity was going to be given the chance of proving themselves worthy of the Mantle.


That's more than a reasonable conclusion, but I was thinking of applying the way that 343 Guilty Spark talks to John throughout the Covenant Trilogy to this encounter. Guilty Spark looked at John-117 and, while we saw an otherwise ordinary human, he saw someone else entirely; speaking to the Spartan like they had been long estranged from each other. He references conversations that John could have never had in his 41 years of existence isolated in the human sphere of influence, or suggests that he should have know technical details that were privileged to a very few. The Gravemind can reach across the stars, peer into your mind, and speak with awe-inspiring eloquence and reverence. I think that Gravemind saw that very same someone in John-117 that Guilty Spark did.
Maybe, but the Gravemind also says;

"Child of my enemy, why have you come? I offer no forgiveness, a father's sins, passed to his son."

I don't think he's making the same mistake as Guilty Spark, but I guess you could still counter that with your geas argument. I don't personally believe that argument though. It's a bit too much to have one evil, one good and one possibly in John's head, at least in my opinion.
Grizzlei wrote:
Baartvedt wrote:
But the statement is still a little odd considering it's directed at a Human. It would have been more appropriate if it had been directed at a Forerunner. The Gravemind seemed pleased with their revenge over the Forerunners and while the Primordial deemed it best for all to be integrated into the Flood, Humanity was going to be given the chance of proving themselves worthy of the Mantle.


That's more than a reasonable conclusion, but I was thinking of applying the way that 343 Guilty Spark talks to John throughout the Covenant Trilogy to this encounter. Guilty Spark looked at John-117 and, while we saw an otherwise ordinary human, he saw someone else entirely; speaking to the Spartan like they had been long estranged from each other. He references conversations that John could have never had in his 41 years of existence isolated in the human sphere of influence, or suggests that he should have know technical details that were privileged to a very few. The Gravemind can reach across the stars, peer into your mind, and speak with awe-inspiring eloquence and reverence. I think that Gravemind saw that very same someone in John-117 that Guilty Spark did.


No chance you've seen this video, is there? About 7 minutes long.

Spoiler:
Show

Answers what I've highlighted. It's a pretty convincing theory.
It's a fairly common theory and the idea has probably hit anyone who has played the games and read Primordium. I still think it's hogwash though.
Baartvedt wrote:
It's a fairly common theory and the idea has probably hit anyone who has played the games and read Primordium. I still think it's hogwash though.
Search your feelings, Lord Andy. You will know it to be true. :P
Grizzlei wrote:
Baartvedt wrote:
It's a fairly common theory and the idea has probably hit anyone who has played the games and read Primordium. I still think it's hogwash though.

Search your feelings, Lord Andy. You will know it to be true. :P
The good one is almost guaranteed to return and the evil one isn't dead. Isn't a third inside John's head a little overkill?
Well and Bungie isn't the first or last to use bible references, it's pretty easy to use/do and you can't be considered plagerizing for the most part either lol!

Also on a side note, authors and story writers use a lot of Lovecraft story too, such as a large game called World of Warcraft, pretty much entirely based on Lovecraft at it's core.
Forerunner rebelled against the precursors, some escaped and were accidentally "corrupted", becoming the flood. The flood is the result of forerunner sins. And the fact he says it to a human doesn't matter, because as andy wrote gravemind believes that a father's sin passes to his son, meaning from forerunners to humans, in fact humans are referred by gravmind as "son of my enemy", and this enemy are for sure forerunners.
I think people are forgetting that Bungie were essentially contradicting themselves with their own canon, where they half-established that humans and Forerunners are the same species, and also half-established that they weren't. The "Child of my enemy" line, would apply in this scenario, as would "i am a monument to all your sins".

However, it could be argued that since the Flood consume all, and do not make a distinction between who is innocent, and who is guilty, he meant that line to all beings across the board.
Baartvedt wrote:
Grizzlei wrote:
The sins to which Gravemind may attribute to us is the Precursor's belief that all of their creations should possess individualism and free will at their very core. This backfired against them when Forerunners deemed themselves the rightful inheritors of the Mantle. The Precursors faced mass genocide when they decided to instead place that burden on the shoulders of humanity instead of their sister race, the Forerunners. Then, the Forerunner waged war on the Precursor's creations throughout the Milky Way, including humanity, to firmly establish themselves as possessing the Mantle.

Actually, I think Halopedia can sum this up a little better than I can:
Quote:
The Gravemind often touts to others that the Flood represent peace and salvation. At the same time, however, it is very much aware of the pain and suffering its victims are subjected to. It sees this as fair retribution for the Forerunners' crimes against its Precursor ancestors. According to the Gravemind, the Flood, down to its very nature and the suffering it inflicts, serves as an appropriate reflection and reminder of the pain that the Precursors ultimately brought on themselves by giving their creations free will; it considers itself a "monument" to the sins of other sentient beings. It regards the Flood as a continuation of the Precursors' desire to create life, but unlike before, the life they bring forth would no longer possess free will or individuality. Embittered by the Forerunners' rebellion, the Gravemind saw the Flood as a means to unite all life into one, so that no conflict or competition would ever arise again and that all life would coexist peacefully as one.


But the statement is still a little odd considering it's directed at a Human. It would have been more appropriate if it had been directed at a Forerunner. The Gravemind seemed pleased with their revenge over the Forerunners and while the Primordial deemed it best for all to be integrated into the Flood, Humanity was going to be given the chance of proving themselves worthy of the Mantle.
Gravemind: All that is created will suffer!
I think people are forgetting that Bungie were essentially contradicting themselves with their own canon, where they half-established that humans and Forerunners are the same species, and also half-established that they weren't. The "Child of my enemy" line, would apply in this scenario, as would "i am a monument to all your sins".

However, it could be argued that since the Flood consume all, and do not make a distinction between who is innocent, and who is guilty, he meant that line to all beings across the board.
It's an ancient greek tragedy typical aspect, that the sins of an ancestor affects all the genos (stock, race).
And yes probably Bungie meant humans to be forerunners, in this sense we are forerunners' sons. But it can still be metaphorically valid if we consider that humans are forerunners successors, the ones that will take the Mantle after them.
The Flood exist because of the genocide committed by the Forerunners against the Precursors. Some Precursors decided to become dust, but the dust became corrupted and the Flood was born.
Well a monument is like a statue or building to commemorate something or someone.
And he defines himself as a monument.
And "to all your sins" is pretty straightforward.
So he's pretty much saying he exists to commemorate all of our wrongdoings.

Which is very reminiscent of the devil.

I'm sure the line was used in another piece of literature, like Dante's inferno or something.
Actually, I might check that out. But ultimately I believe this is what Bungie were getting at: He's almost like a modern-day (or should I say future-day) representation of the devil.
Oh god not Inferno... Isn't that the one about different horrific things happening to you depending on what you did in your lifetime?
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