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I think it’s more likely the show won’t be canon

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WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
More and more I find myself not giving a yoink! about whether something isn't "canon" or "doesn't fit the lore." I just want a good story well told. I want a great love action show set in the Halo universe, I could not care less it that results in certain details conflicting with "the lore."

The wider canon should be something we use to enrich the franchise as a whole, not something we use as a cudgel to stamp down any and all deviation.

As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white. It is curious how no one questions why they were made to be white in the first place. Clearly making them white was just a lazy attempt to pander to a demographic... sigh. Funny how the "pandering" "SJWs bad", "Get Woke, go broke" types only ever show up when minorities get cast in key roles and not when you see white male leads. They never ask for any narrative justification for that type of casting, what a coincidence.

On a final note: "This heavily violates the canon as far as we know." The bold part is kind of important. "We didn't know about this specific thing but now we do" is kind of the whole point of adding new things in the first place.
The canon should be respected, if not, then anything goes and that's honestly terrible. There should should be a single narrative, not flip floppy "anything goes", that's terrible. It has nothing to do with that they're black, it's that established characters are being race swapped for no reason. If they wanted these cast members in here, that's awesome,but don't change characters. If they want to deviate this far, that's fine. Just come out and say that this show isn't part of the canon and its own thing.
You realize there is an enormous gap between "not getting hung up on minor changes or new additions" and "anything goes" right? Just because something will "respect the canon" doesn't mean it is going to be a good story well told. Haivng a neat little timeline of events that all line up with each other is nice, a sense of consistency in a wider franchise is nice, but not when it strangles creativity.

Every time someone says something along the lines of characters "being race swapped for no reason" I'm going to continue to point out there was no "reason" for most of this characters to be white in the first place.
I’m not saying race matters, I’m talking about respecting the canon 1st and foremost. That’s the issue at hand, not this whole race thing, stop trying to make it that. The issue at hand is them not respecting the established canon.
Its hard for me to swallow the whole "I'm not saying race matters" when in your OP you speculate that the change was done "possibly for diversity points." I can't fathom how I'm the one trying to make it about race when I'm just hoping from a great performance from two actors, but you and other can't help but interject: bUt ThEy ArE cAnOniCalY wHiTe.

I'd rather have a good story than have them slavishly following "the canon" especially when "the canon" in one instance is keeping two characters white in an overwhelmingly white pop sci-fi space.

That being said, since It hasn't been clear, when I have been criticizing "the canon" when it is used as a tool to stomp out deviation I am also talking about the Mahkee character and the whole concept of a human being raised by Covenant. While that wouldn't have been my first choice as a plotline, I don't consider something we haven't seen before as being an egregious breech of canon. If we only stick to what has been previously been established, then The Fall of Reach should have been the only piece of Halo media ever published.

Following the established canon is not inherently going to make for a better narrative. Whether the show ends up being any good to remains to be seen, but if it ends up being bad, it won't be because they didn't "respect the canon" enough.
If they just do their own thing and make it non-canon, cool they can do whatever they want. Just waiting for them to officially announce it ain’t canon.
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
More and more I find myself not giving a yoink! about whether something isn't "canon" or "doesn't fit the lore." I just want a good story well told. I want a great love action show set in the Halo universe, I could not care less it that results in certain details conflicting with "the lore."

The wider canon should be something we use to enrich the franchise as a whole, not something we use as a cudgel to stamp down any and all deviation.

As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white. It is curious how no one questions why they were made to be white in the first place. Clearly making them white was just a lazy attempt to pander to a demographic... sigh. Funny how the "pandering" "SJWs bad", "Get Woke, go broke" types only ever show up when minorities get cast in key roles and not when you see white male leads. They never ask for any narrative justification for that type of casting, what a coincidence.

On a final note: "This heavily violates the canon as far as we know." The bold part is kind of important. "We didn't know about this specific thing but now we do" is kind of the whole point of adding new things in the first place.
The canon should be respected, if not, then anything goes and that's honestly terrible. There should should be a single narrative, not flip floppy "anything goes", that's terrible. It has nothing to do with that they're black, it's that established characters are being race swapped for no reason. If they wanted these cast members in here, that's awesome,but don't change characters. If they want to deviate this far, that's fine. Just come out and say that this show isn't part of the canon and its own thing.
You realize there is an enormous gap between "not getting hung up on minor changes or new additions" and "anything goes" right? Just because something will "respect the canon" doesn't mean it is going to be a good story well told. Haivng a neat little timeline of events that all line up with each other is nice, a sense of consistency in a wider franchise is nice, but not when it strangles creativity.

Every time someone says something along the lines of characters "being race swapped for no reason" I'm going to continue to point out there was no "reason" for most of this characters to be white in the first place.
I’m not saying race matters, I’m talking about respecting the canon 1st and foremost. That’s the issue at hand, not this whole race thing, stop trying to make it that. The issue at hand is them not respecting the established canon.
Its hard for me to swallow the whole "I'm not saying race matters" when in your OP you speculate that the change was done "possibly for diversity points." I can't fathom how I'm the one trying to make it about race when I'm just hoping from a great performance from two actors, but you and other can't help but interject: bUt ThEy ArE cAnOniCalY wHiTe.

I'd rather have a good story than have them slavishly following "the canon" especially when "the canon" in one instance is keeping two characters white in an overwhelmingly white pop sci-fi space.

That being said, since It hasn't been clear, when I have been criticizing "the canon" when it is used as a tool to stomp out deviation I am also talking about the Mahkee character and the whole concept of a human being raised by Covenant. While that wouldn't have been my first choice as a plotline, I don't consider something we haven't seen before as being an egregious breech of canon. If we only stick to what has been previously been established, then The Fall of Reach should have been the only piece of Halo media ever published.

Following the established canon is not inherently going to make for a better narrative. Whether the show ends up being any good to remains to be seen, but if it ends up being bad, it won't be because they didn't "respect the canon" enough.
If they just do their own thing and make it non-canon, cool they can do whatever they want. Just waiting for them to officially announce it ain’t canon.
If those are the only changes/additions it takes to demand something be declared "non canon" then you might as well delete a huge portion of "the canon."
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
More and more I find myself not giving a yoink! about whether something isn't "canon" or "doesn't fit the lore." I just want a good story well told. I want a great love action show set in the Halo universe, I could not care less it that results in certain details conflicting with "the lore."

The wider canon should be something we use to enrich the franchise as a whole, not something we use as a cudgel to stamp down any and all deviation.

As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white. It is curious how no one questions why they were made to be white in the first place. Clearly making them white was just a lazy attempt to pander to a demographic... sigh. Funny how the "pandering" "SJWs bad", "Get Woke, go broke" types only ever show up when minorities get cast in key roles and not when you see white male leads. They never ask for any narrative justification for that type of casting, what a coincidence.

On a final note: "This heavily violates the canon as far as we know." The bold part is kind of important. "We didn't know about this specific thing but now we do" is kind of the whole point of adding new things in the first place.
The canon should be respected, if not, then anything goes and that's honestly terrible. There should should be a single narrative, not flip floppy "anything goes", that's terrible. It has nothing to do with that they're black, it's that established characters are being race swapped for no reason. If they wanted these cast members in here, that's awesome,but don't change characters. If they want to deviate this far, that's fine. Just come out and say that this show isn't part of the canon and its own thing.
You realize there is an enormous gap between "not getting hung up on minor changes or new additions" and "anything goes" right? Just because something will "respect the canon" doesn't mean it is going to be a good story well told. Haivng a neat little timeline of events that all line up with each other is nice, a sense of consistency in a wider franchise is nice, but not when it strangles creativity.

Every time someone says something along the lines of characters "being race swapped for no reason" I'm going to continue to point out there was no "reason" for most of this characters to be white in the first place.
I’m not saying race matters, I’m talking about respecting the canon 1st and foremost. That’s the issue at hand, not this whole race thing, stop trying to make it that. The issue at hand is them not respecting the established canon.
Its hard for me to swallow the whole "I'm not saying race matters" when in your OP you speculate that the change was done "possibly for diversity points." I can't fathom how I'm the one trying to make it about race when I'm just hoping from a great performance from two actors, but you and other can't help but interject: bUt ThEy ArE cAnOniCalY wHiTe.

I'd rather have a good story than have them slavishly following "the canon" especially when "the canon" in one instance is keeping two characters white in an overwhelmingly white pop sci-fi space.

That being said, since It hasn't been clear, when I have been criticizing "the canon" when it is used as a tool to stomp out deviation I am also talking about the Mahkee character and the whole concept of a human being raised by Covenant. While that wouldn't have been my first choice as a plotline, I don't consider something we haven't seen before as being an egregious breech of canon. If we only stick to what has been previously been established, then The Fall of Reach should have been the only piece of Halo media ever published.

Following the established canon is not inherently going to make for a better narrative. Whether the show ends up being any good to remains to be seen, but if it ends up being bad, it won't be because they didn't "respect the canon" enough.
If they just do their own thing and make it non-canon, cool they can do whatever they want. Just waiting for them to officially announce it ain’t canon.
If those are the only changes/additions it takes to demand something be declared "non canon" then you might as well delete a huge portion of "the canon."
And the chick being raised by the Covenant also is ridiculous. Also calling Jacob and Halsey being ex-spouses. That other stuff. But yeah, more than likely this show won't be canon.
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
More and more I find myself not giving a yoink! about whether something isn't "canon" or "doesn't fit the lore." I just want a good story well told. I want a great love action show set in the Halo universe, I could not care less it that results in certain details conflicting with "the lore."

The wider canon should be something we use to enrich the franchise as a whole, not something we use as a cudgel to stamp down any and all deviation.

As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white. It is curious how no one questions why they were made to be white in the first place. Clearly making them white was just a lazy attempt to pander to a demographic... sigh. Funny how the "pandering" "SJWs bad", "Get Woke, go broke" types only ever show up when minorities get cast in key roles and not when you see white male leads. They never ask for any narrative justification for that type of casting, what a coincidence.

On a final note: "This heavily violates the canon as far as we know." The bold part is kind of important. "We didn't know about this specific thing but now we do" is kind of the whole point of adding new things in the first place.
The canon should be respected, if not, then anything goes and that's honestly terrible. There should should be a single narrative, not flip floppy "anything goes", that's terrible. It has nothing to do with that they're black, it's that established characters are being race swapped for no reason. If they wanted these cast members in here, that's awesome,but don't change characters. If they want to deviate this far, that's fine. Just come out and say that this show isn't part of the canon and its own thing.
You realize there is an enormous gap between "not getting hung up on minor changes or new additions" and "anything goes" right? Just because something will "respect the canon" doesn't mean it is going to be a good story well told. Haivng a neat little timeline of events that all line up with each other is nice, a sense of consistency in a wider franchise is nice, but not when it strangles creativity.

Every time someone says something along the lines of characters "being race swapped for no reason" I'm going to continue to point out there was no "reason" for most of this characters to be white in the first place.
I’m not saying race matters, I’m talking about respecting the canon 1st and foremost. That’s the issue at hand, not this whole race thing, stop trying to make it that. The issue at hand is them not respecting the established canon.
Its hard for me to swallow the whole "I'm not saying race matters" when in your OP you speculate that the change was done "possibly for diversity points." I can't fathom how I'm the one trying to make it about race when I'm just hoping from a great performance from two actors, but you and other can't help but interject: bUt ThEy ArE cAnOniCalY wHiTe.

I'd rather have a good story than have them slavishly following "the canon" especially when "the canon" in one instance is keeping two characters white in an overwhelmingly white pop sci-fi space.

That being said, since It hasn't been clear, when I have been criticizing "the canon" when it is used as a tool to stomp out deviation I am also talking about the Mahkee character and the whole concept of a human being raised by Covenant. While that wouldn't have been my first choice as a plotline, I don't consider something we haven't seen before as being an egregious breech of canon. If we only stick to what has been previously been established, then The Fall of Reach should have been the only piece of Halo media ever published.

Following the established canon is not inherently going to make for a better narrative. Whether the show ends up being any good to remains to be seen, but if it ends up being bad, it won't be because they didn't "respect the canon" enough.
If they just do their own thing and make it non-canon, cool they can do whatever they want. Just waiting for them to officially announce it ain’t canon.
If those are the only changes/additions it takes to demand something be declared "non canon" then you might as well delete a huge portion of "the canon."
And the chick being raised by the Covenant also is ridiculous. Also calling Jacob and Halsey being ex-spouses. That other stuff. But yeah, more than likely this show won't be canon.
So because you don't like a particular plotline it shouldn't be canon? Nice to know, now I can ask for the entirety of Halo 5 to be scrubbed from the canon.
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
More and more I find myself not giving a yoink! about whether something isn't "canon" or "doesn't fit the lore." I just want a good story well told. I want a great love action show set in the Halo universe, I could not care less it that results in certain details conflicting with "the lore."

The wider canon should be something we use to enrich the franchise as a whole, not something we use as a cudgel to stamp down any and all deviation.

As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white. It is curious how no one questions why they were made to be white in the first place. Clearly making them white was just a lazy attempt to pander to a demographic... sigh. Funny how the "pandering" "SJWs bad", "Get Woke, go broke" types only ever show up when minorities get cast in key roles and not when you see white male leads. They never ask for any narrative justification for that type of casting, what a coincidence.

On a final note: "This heavily violates the canon as far as we know." The bold part is kind of important. "We didn't know about this specific thing but now we do" is kind of the whole point of adding new things in the first place.
The canon should be respected, if not, then anything goes and that's honestly terrible. There should should be a single narrative, not flip floppy "anything goes", that's terrible. It has nothing to do with that they're black, it's that established characters are being race swapped for no reason. If they wanted these cast members in here, that's awesome,but don't change characters. If they want to deviate this far, that's fine. Just come out and say that this show isn't part of the canon and its own thing.
You realize there is an enormous gap between "not getting hung up on minor changes or new additions" and "anything goes" right? Just because something will "respect the canon" doesn't mean it is going to be a good story well told. Haivng a neat little timeline of events that all line up with each other is nice, a sense of consistency in a wider franchise is nice, but not when it strangles creativity.

Every time someone says something along the lines of characters "being race swapped for no reason" I'm going to continue to point out there was no "reason" for most of this characters to be white in the first place.
I’m not saying race matters, I’m talking about respecting the canon 1st and foremost. That’s the issue at hand, not this whole race thing, stop trying to make it that. The issue at hand is them not respecting the established canon.
Its hard for me to swallow the whole "I'm not saying race matters" when in your OP you speculate that the change was done "possibly for diversity points." I can't fathom how I'm the one trying to make it about race when I'm just hoping from a great performance from two actors, but you and other can't help but interject: bUt ThEy ArE cAnOniCalY wHiTe.

I'd rather have a good story than have them slavishly following "the canon" especially when "the canon" in one instance is keeping two characters white in an overwhelmingly white pop sci-fi space.

That being said, since It hasn't been clear, when I have been criticizing "the canon" when it is used as a tool to stomp out deviation I am also talking about the Mahkee character and the whole concept of a human being raised by Covenant. While that wouldn't have been my first choice as a plotline, I don't consider something we haven't seen before as being an egregious breech of canon. If we only stick to what has been previously been established, then The Fall of Reach should have been the only piece of Halo media ever published.

Following the established canon is not inherently going to make for a better narrative. Whether the show ends up being any good to remains to be seen, but if it ends up being bad, it won't be because they didn't "respect the canon" enough.
If they just do their own thing and make it non-canon, cool they can do whatever they want. Just waiting for them to officially announce it ain’t canon.
If those are the only changes/additions it takes to demand something be declared "non canon" then you might as well delete a huge portion of "the canon."
And the chick being raised by the Covenant also is ridiculous. Also calling Jacob and Halsey being ex-spouses. That other stuff. But yeah, more than likely this show won't be canon.
So because you don't like a particular plotline it shouldn't be canon? Nice to know, now I can ask for the entirety of Halo 5 to be scrubbed from the canon.
It's not me not liking it buddy, it's a clear violation of canon, along with Keyes likely being a captain before he was promoted in the canon. So yeah, it's becoming more and more likely and clear that this show isn't gonna be canon.
It’s becoming more and more clear that the show will NOT be canon
Recently we got some casting news. Jacob and Miranda Keyes will be portrayed by David Sapani and Olive Gray. Charlie Murphy will play a new character called Makee, described as being an orphan raised by the Covenant to hate her own kind. These casting seem to indicate further and further that the show will NOT be canon. Firstly is the casting of David and Olive and the Keyes father and daughter. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the casting of these 2, the issue is who they’re cast as. The show is supposedly meant to fit into the canon. However, Jacob and Miranda are canonically white, and the show shouldn’t have violated the canon for no reason, or possibly for the sake of diversity points. Then the making of this Makee character raised by the Covenant. This heavily violates the canon as far as we know. The Covenant wouldn’t raise any Humans, including children, they saw all of us as vermin and heretics to their faith and gods. I started to get more faith in this show, then this came along and has pretty much shattered all my hopes. I’m now beginning to suspect it’s more and more likely that this show really won’t be canon, but it’s own little separate thing for TV. Really unfortunate, so wanted a canon Halo TV series. What’d you think, what’re your thoughts?
I don't think Mahkee is human. She is a female Elite. I don't understand why they would change Jacob and Miranda's race, they've been Caucasian for years. I don't understand why this is ever done. Would it be okay to make Locke an asian man in the next game? Or Hunters made out of Grunts?
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It’s becoming more and more clear that the show will NOT be canon
Recently we got some casting news. Jacob and Miranda Keyes will be portrayed by David Sapani and Olive Gray. Charlie Murphy will play a new character called Makee, described as being an orphan raised by the Covenant to hate her own kind. These casting seem to indicate further and further that the show will NOT be canon. Firstly is the casting of David and Olive and the Keyes father and daughter. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the casting of these 2, the issue is who they’re cast as. The show is supposedly meant to fit into the canon. However, Jacob and Miranda are canonically white, and the show shouldn’t have violated the canon for no reason, or possibly for the sake of diversity points. Then the making of this Makee character raised by the Covenant. This heavily violates the canon as far as we know. The Covenant wouldn’t raise any Humans, including children, they saw all of us as vermin and heretics to their faith and gods. I started to get more faith in this show, then this came along and has pretty much shattered all my hopes. I’m now beginning to suspect it’s more and more likely that this show really won’t be canon, but it’s own little separate thing for TV. Really unfortunate, so wanted a canon Halo TV series. What’d you think, what’re your thoughts?
I don't think Mahkee is human. She is a female Elite. I don't understand why they would change Jacob and Miranda's race, they've been Caucasian for years. I don't understand why this is ever done. Would it be okay to make Locke an asian man in the next game? Or Hunters made out of Grunts?
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this is the description of this Makee character "an orphaned human who was raised by the alien Covenant and shares their contempt for humanity." Yeah, it's as dumb as it sounds. I agree man, violating the canon is a very foolish decision. At least it seems more and more likely that the show isn't canon.
WerepyreND wrote:
JNDreher wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
More and more I find myself not giving a yoink! about whether something isn't "canon" or "doesn't fit the lore." I just want a good story well told. I want a great love action show set in the Halo universe, I could not care less it that results in certain details conflicting with "the lore."

The wider canon should be something we use to enrich the franchise as a whole, not something we use as a cudgel to stamp down any and all deviation.

As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white. It is curious how no one questions why they were made to be white in the first place. Clearly making them white was just a lazy attempt to pander to a demographic... sigh. Funny how the "pandering" "SJWs bad", "Get Woke, go broke" types only ever show up when minorities get cast in key roles and not when you see white male leads. They never ask for any narrative justification for that type of casting, what a coincidence.

On a final note: "This heavily violates the canon as far as we know." The bold part is kind of important. "We didn't know about this specific thing but now we do" is kind of the whole point of adding new things in the first place.
The canon should be respected, if not, then anything goes and that's honestly terrible. There should should be a single narrative, not flip floppy "anything goes", that's terrible. It has nothing to do with that they're black, it's that established characters are being race swapped for no reason. If they wanted these cast members in here, that's awesome,but don't change characters. If they want to deviate this far, that's fine. Just come out and say that this show isn't part of the canon and its own thing.
You realize there is an enormous gap between "not getting hung up on minor changes or new additions" and "anything goes" right? Just because something will "respect the canon" doesn't mean it is going to be a good story well told. Haivng a neat little timeline of events that all line up with each other is nice, a sense of consistency in a wider franchise is nice, but not when it strangles creativity.

Every time someone says something along the lines of characters "being race swapped for no reason" I'm going to continue to point out there was no "reason" for most of this characters to be white in the first place.
In the real world, there are innumerable great, true stories that all fit into this REAL, coherent universe. It's not too much to ask for the lore of a fictional universe to fit into one coherent canon. If a writer can't fit a story into a sprawling galaxy that's mostly open to be filled in, they're just not that good of a writer, or are at best, are not suited to writing for this franchise.

Also, a character doesn't have to be defined by their ethnic demographic to be influenced by it. When you change a character's ethnicity, it inevitably changes other aspects of the character. You change a lot more than just what a character looks like when you swap their ethnicity. Think about it. Do you think Sgt Johnson would be one of the most beloved characters in Halo if he were Swedish, or Korean? The whole package of who Sgt Avery Johnson is (including his ethnicity) gave us one of the most awesome characters in gaming. Change any aspect of him, and it's not the same character. The same goes for Captain Jacob Keyes. He doesn't need a reason to be white, he just is, just like how Sgt Johnson doesn't need a reason to be black.
I was wondering when someone would bring up Johnson. Why yes, it would be weird if a character that was a reference to Al Matthews in Aliens were Swedish or Korean because his ethnicity was actually baked into the character from the start. Keyes doesn't have that same type of background.

Even if we accepted that false equivalence, there is a big difference between swapping ethnicity of underrepresented minority characters and doing the same with the majority ethnicity. The former makes an already small list even smaller, and the latter is a drop in the bucket.

I talk about the "reasoning" for Keyes being white because the question of "why has a character got to be X" is almost exclusively aimed at minority representation regardless of whether they are a new character or not. The same folks who complain about others "ham-fistedly shoving their political ideologies into escapist entertainment" or having an "agenda" never accuse anyone who adds a white character of "pandering to a demographic."
But keyes and Johnson were not added" recently. They weren't added for pandering. One was White and the other was black. That being said their roles were integral and vastly different. They're race itself doesn't play the role for them but its its s a part of who they are. To change it doesn't exempt them from criticism whether they are white or black. Imagine Captain Johnson vs Sergeant keyes... The roles would be so different.
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Keyes ethnicity change while unnecessary ain't a big deal.

Story is what makes or breaks a show. Characters development, believable cgi, great plot, pacing etc. If you mod Halo CE cutscenes and turn keyes into a black person it wouldn't change the story for example

The keyes ethnicity change isn't much different then Halsey appearance in Legends or the FUD design chance in Halo 4. I just see the appearance as non canon while the game versions are the true ones.
You want to see a real canon violation?? = Halo Reach vs the Fall of Reach. Captain keyes is simultaneously in space and on ground xd

BTW the makee casting made me go WTF at first. But thinking about it.... i'm sure Makee's purpose is like of a trojan horse. Infiltrate and destroy.
The Covenant so desperately want Earth's location, but they can't thanks to cole protocol. They just keep failing and humanity's genocide drags on. So why not use a different more sinister tactic? A brainwashed human being infiltrating society and providing the right intel to the Covenant to speed up the "heretics" destruction would solve alot of problems. Oh and activiting the Halo array or a shield world if they ever find one.

This wouldn't be out of character for the prophets. The same aliens who lie repeadtly against their own faction. They will be doing this in secret tho. After they have no use of her, they can kill her off.

That's the way i could see this work.
JNDreher wrote:
shirtssss wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
More and more I find myself not giving a yoink! about whether something isn't "canon" or "doesn't fit the lore." I just want a good story well told. I want a great love action show set in the Halo universe, I could not care less it that results in certain details conflicting with "the lore."

The wider canon should be something we use to enrich the franchise as a whole, not something we use as a cudgel to stamp down any and all deviation.

As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white. It is curious how no one questions why they were made to be white in the first place. Clearly making them white was just a lazy attempt to pander to a demographic... sigh. Funny how the "pandering" "SJWs bad", "Get Woke, go broke" types only ever show up when minorities get cast in key roles and not when you see white male leads. They never ask for any narrative justification for that type of casting, what a coincidence.

On a final note: "This heavily violates the canon as far as we know." The bold part is kind of important. "We didn't know about this specific thing but now we do" is kind of the whole point of adding new things in the first place.
The canon should be respected, if not, then anything goes and that's honestly terrible. There should should be a single narrative, not flip floppy "anything goes", that's terrible. It has nothing to do with that they're black, it's that established characters are being race swapped for no reason. If they wanted these cast members in here, that's awesome,but don't change characters. If they want to deviate this far, that's fine. Just come out and say that this show isn't part of the canon and its own thing.
Casting actors who can best project the essence of Jacob and Miranda Keyes is respecting the lore more than ticking off every physical descriptor, imo.
Unfortunately it doesn't look like that's what's happening. The showrunners are ham-fistedly shoving their political ideologies into what used to be escapist entertainment, which always lowers the quality of the final product. The problem isn't that an established white character is cast by a black actor. The problem is that the reason the character was ethnicity-swapped was because he was a competent, likable leader, who happened to be a straight, white male... and as we all know the prevailing ideology of showrunners is "white-man-bad". I guarantee that if this show had an appearance of Captain Del Rio, they'd leave him white, because he's an antagonist who makes the wrong call when it comes to how to handle the Didact's return. And that is the problem. It's WHY they're making the changes, and the net affect on the quality of the show, not what specific changes are.
How are you so sure that they're doing this because of a political agenda? Is there an interview of Kyle Killin saying the casting was influenced by identity politics? Genuinely curious.
Keyes ethnicity change while unnecessary ain't a big deal.

Story is what makes or breaks a show. Characters development, believable cgi, great plot, pacing etc. If you mod Halo CE cutscenes and turn keyes into a black person it wouldn't change the story for example

The keyes ethnicity change isn't much different then Halsey appearance in Legends or the FUD design chance in Halo 4. I just see the appearance as non canon while the game versions are the true ones.
You want to see a real canon violation?? = Halo Reach vs the Fall of Reach. Captain keyes is simultaneously in space and on ground xd

BTW the makee casting made me go WTF at first. But thinking about it.... i'm sure Makee's purpose is like of a trojan horse. Infiltrate and destroy.
The Covenant so desperately want Earth's location, but they can't thanks to cole protocol. They just keep failing and humanity's genocide drags on. So why not use a different more sinister tactic? A brainwashed human being infiltrating society and providing the right intel to the Covenant to speed up the "heretics" destruction would solve alot of problems. Oh and activiting the Halo array or a shield world if they ever find one.

This wouldn't be out of character for the prophets. The same aliens who lie repeadtly against their own faction. They will be doing this in secret tho. After they have no use of her, they can kill her off.

That's the way i could see this work.
While good points, I think the likely answer is the show isn’t really gonna be part of the canon, and instead it’s own thing for TV. Which that is cool, go for it, just as long as we know it ain’t canon. Hoping we have somebody make the announcement soon.
Well, mark this show as the third thing in the Halo Franchise I have zero interest in and will actively disregard.
It's not me not liking it buddy, it's a clear violation of canon, along with Keyes likely being a captain before he was promoted in the canon. So yeah, it's becoming more and more likely and clear that this show isn't gonna be canon.
This is more than just bad plotlines or bad execution, While Jacob and Miranda aren't black they also didn't get the ranks right. Jacob isn't a captain yet...
Oh no, something was changed from The Fall of Reach. Its almost like that's happened before...... The idea that a rank discrepancy is some huge fault is some laughable, cinemasins level of shallow nitpicking. Occams razor says the reasoning behind that change is both familiarity, because the vast majority of the potential audience has never touched a Halo book and to more easily differentiate between which Keyes we are talking about at any given time.

If you are going to complain about plotlines you don't like or "canon violations" fine. Just don't act surprised when people call you out on your hypocrisy for ignoring every other instance in Halo where plotlines were bad or something "violated the canon"
But keyes and Johnson were not added" recently. They weren't added for pandering. One was White and the other was black. That being said their roles were integral and vastly different. They're race itself doesn't play the role for them but its its s a part of who they are. To change it doesn't exempt them from criticism whether they are white or black. Imagine Captain Johnson vs Sergeant keyes... The roles would be so different.
How convenient that people only just now started "pandering" with certain characters or changes... The Johnson/Keyes comparison doesn't hold water. Context matters. Saying "things would be different if things were different" isn't the strong argument you think it is. Nothing about Captain Keyes is tied to his ethnicity the same way Johnson is tied to his. And again even if it wasn't recasting minority characters is just not equivalent to recasting majority white characters.

I'm going to say this one more time for the people in the back: If the show is bad, it won't be because they "violated the canon" and it wouldn't be any better just because they called Jacob Keyes Commander instead of Captain.

None of this should give anyone any pause, thus far this is all pretty standard stuff as far as mainstream adaptations go. A bad TV show is not going to ruin Halo the video game series or the novels or the comics. Its all still going to be there when all is said and done even if the show is declared canon. If one rotten apple can spoil the bunch for you I honestly don't know how you can enjoy any large franchises at all.
WerepyreND wrote:
It's not me not liking it buddy, it's a clear violation of canon, along with Keyes likely being a captain before he was promoted in the canon. So yeah, it's becoming more and more likely and clear that this show isn't gonna be canon.
This is more than just bad plotlines or bad execution, While Jacob and Miranda aren't black they also didn't get the ranks right. Jacob isn't a captain yet...
Oh no, something was changed from The Fall of Reach. Its almost like that's happened before...... The idea that a rank discrepancy is some huge fault is some laughable, cinemasins level of shallow nitpicking. Occams razor says the reasoning behind that change is both familiarity, because the vast majority of the potential audience has never touched a Halo book and to more easily differentiate between which Keyes we are talking about at any given time.

If you are going to complain about plotlines you don't like or "canon violations" fine. Just don't act surprised when people call you out on your hypocrisy for ignoring every other instance in Halo where plotlines were bad or something "violated the canon"
But keyes and Johnson were not added" recently. They weren't added for pandering. One was White and the other was black. That being said their roles were integral and vastly different. They're race itself doesn't play the role for them but its its s a part of who they are. To change it doesn't exempt them from criticism whether they are white or black. Imagine Captain Johnson vs Sergeant keyes... The roles would be so different.
How convenient that people only just now started "pandering" with certain characters or changes... The Johnson/Keyes comparison doesn't hold water. Context matters. Saying "things would be different if things were different" isn't the strong argument you think it is. Nothing about Captain Keyes is tied to his ethnicity the same way Johnson is tied to his. And again even if it wasn't recasting minority characters is just not equivalent to recasting majority white characters.

I'm going to say this one more time for the people in the back: If the show is bad, it won't be because they "violated the canon" and it wouldn't be any better just because they called Jacob Keyes Commander instead of Captain.

None of this should give anyone any pause, thus far this is all pretty standard stuff as far as mainstream adaptations go. A bad TV show is not going to ruin Halo the video game series or the novels or the comics. Its all still going to be there when all is said and done even if the show is declared canon. If one rotten apple can spoil the bunch for you I honestly don't know how you can enjoy any large franchises at all.
If it’s an adaptation and it’s own thing, I’m completely fine with that, they can do whatever they want and I’m cool. If it’s meant to exist within the canon itself and stand alongside the rest of the material, no, just no.
If it’s an adaptation and it’s own thing, I’m completely fine with that, they can do whatever they want and I’m cool. If it’s meant to exist within the canon itself and stand alongside the rest of the material, no, just no.
Why is this time different from every other time the canon has changed?
WerepyreND wrote:
Oh no, something was changed from The Fall of Reach
And Halo: CE, and Halo 2, and Halo 3, and countless visual and illustrated sources.
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