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I think it’s more likely the show won’t be canon

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WerepyreND wrote:
If it’s an adaptation and it’s own thing, I’m completely fine with that, they can do whatever they want and I’m cool. If it’s meant to exist within the canon itself and stand alongside the rest of the material, no, just no.
Why is this time different from every other time the canon has changed?
Don’t like when that’s done either, would like for them to stay consistent in that also. As I said, if this is an adaptation I’m cool with it.
WerepyreND wrote:
Oh no, something was changed from The Fall of Reach
And Halo: CE, and Halo 2, and Halo 3, and countless visual and illustrated sources.
You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!
Don’t like when that’s done either, would like for them to stay consistent in that also. As I said, if this is an adaptation I’m cool with it.
You survived all those other instances, why not this one? What's a few more inconsistencies on top of an enormous pile of inconsistencies that have required people twisting themselves into knots trying to smooth out those inconsistencies? Surely is is easier to just chalk most of it up to artisitc differences and not sweat the small details, especially when sweating those details tends to create problems of their own.

Halo is not a carefully planned and managed franchise, inconsistencies are inevitable. The consistency you want was always an impossible ask. Sure it can feel great when the puzzle pieces line up, but at some point you got to accept that not all the pieces fit together nicely and you are going to have to make some compromises.
WerepyreND wrote:
You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!
And has managed to keep the visual canon consistent. Until now.
Why is the first excuse always "everything is garbage so nothing matters, so don't complain when more is added to the pile"?
WerepyreND wrote:
You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!
And has managed to keep the visual canon consistent. Until now.
That was never the case. At best you could call it thematically consistent and even then there are plenty of visuals just across the original trilogy that varied wildly.
Diovangelo wrote:
Why is the first excuse always "everything is garbage so nothing matters, so don't complain when more is added to the pile"?
The show isn't out yet, they only just started table readings, some casting announcements and a few scattered plot details are not actually enough to determine the shows quality. Moreover the "consistency" certain folks seem to want is impossible to deliver in the first place.
WerepyreND wrote:
That was never the case. At best you could call it thematically consistent and even then there are plenty of visuals just across the original trilogy that varied wildly.
Yes, it absolutely is the case. Characters remained with the same ethnicity, facial features, mannerisms, and presence. Even the weapons managed to remain recognizable.
WerepyreND wrote:
That was never the case. At best you could call it thematically consistent and even then there are plenty of visuals just across the original trilogy that varied wildly.
Yes, it absolutely is the case. Characters remained with the same ethnicity, facial features, mannerisms, and presence. Even the weapons managed to remain recognizable.
I can't even begin to break down how wildly things have changed from game to game, comic to comic, etc or I would be here all day. To use just one very recent example, we wouldn't be seeing so many folks cheering for the return of a classic art style for Infinite if Halo was always visually consistent up to this point and that is just referring to changes within the main development studio at 343.

The body of evidence is so staggering I honestly don't know what to say. Stares in Scarab
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!
And has managed to keep the visual canon consistent. Until now.
That was never the case. At best you could call it thematically consistent and even then there are plenty of visuals just across the original trilogy that varied wildly.
Diovangelo wrote:
Why is the first excuse always "everything is garbage so nothing matters, so don't complain when more is added to the pile"?
The show isn't out yet, they only just started table readings, some casting announcements and a few scattered plot details are not actually enough to determine the shows quality. Moreover the "consistency" certain folks seem to want is impossible to deliver in the first place.
Even if the show is good (I really, really doubt it) it will always be seen as Halo adjacent, like a different IP wearing Halo like a skin.
Also I'd love to hear how genocidal aliens defined by their religious compulsion to purge humanity not raising them and characters staying the same race is impossible consistency to deliver. I get it, Halo canon is a hot mess and you can bring Guilty Spark back from the grave to team up with John Forge's renegade daughter (which makes less sense than Covies keeping a loyal human around to work Forerunner tech), that doesn't make this type of stuff not read like bad fan-fiction.
Diovangelo wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!
And has managed to keep the visual canon consistent. Until now.
That was never the case. At best you could call it thematically consistent and even then there are plenty of visuals just across the original trilogy that varied wildly.
Diovangelo wrote:
Why is the first excuse always "everything is garbage so nothing matters, so don't complain when more is added to the pile"?
The show isn't out yet, they only just started table readings, some casting announcements and a few scattered plot details are not actually enough to determine the shows quality. Moreover the "consistency" certain folks seem to want is impossible to deliver in the first place.
Even if the show is good (I really, really doubt it) it will always be seen as Halo adjacent, like a different IP wearing Halo like a skin.
Also I'd love to hear how genocidal aliens defined by their religious compulsion to purge humanity not raising them and characters staying the same race is impossible consistency to deliver. I get it, Halo canon is a hot mess and you can bring Guilty Spark back from the grave to team up with John Forge's renegade daughter (which makes less sense than Covies keeping a loyal human around to work Forerunner tech), that doesn't make this type of stuff not read like bad fan-fiction.
The Covenant working with humans prior to further that genocidal goal isn't even unprecedented prior to the schism(See: The Cole Protocol). Even taking that particular book out of the equation, is is really that surprising that out of the multiple billions if not trillions of individuals that are part of the Covenant Empire(of which we have seen surprisingly little) might have kept a human or two around for research, infiltration, or even sympathy during the course of a 26 year war? That kind of hivemind mentality would make the flood blush.

But none of that is really the point. I'm mainly wondering why this seems to be the breaking point for some people and the only answers I'm coming up with are not great.

I'm all for having higher standards, but once again we still know nothing about how it is actually going to turn out. The actual content of this new information just doesn't warrant this kind of response since we still have next to nothing to go off of. Its like the folks speculating that Infinite is going to be open world because of one trailer full of b roll.

The answer to whether the show will be any good is D.) Not enough information. Anything beyond that is rampant speculation.
WerepyreND wrote:
You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!
And has managed to keep the visual canon consistent. Until now.
You sure?

Forward unto dawn Halo 3 vs Halo 4 design
New Mombasa Halo 2 vs Halo 3 ODST
Halsey looking 20 in legends
Pete stacker face Reach vs Halo trilogy face
Mirande keyes face Halo 2 vs anniversary

https://www.halopedia.org/List_of_inconsistencies_in_the_Halo_seriesChanging skin color is really small compared to the massive big errors that happened already. Atleast ethnicity change can be seen as artistic liberty, timeline changes however are unfixable.*points to Reach*
WerepyreND wrote:
Diovangelo wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!
And has managed to keep the visual canon consistent. Until now.
That was never the case. At best you could call it thematically consistent and even then there are plenty of visuals just across the original trilogy that varied wildly.
Diovangelo wrote:
Why is the first excuse always "everything is garbage so nothing matters, so don't complain when more is added to the pile"?
The show isn't out yet, they only just started table readings, some casting announcements and a few scattered plot details are not actually enough to determine the shows quality. Moreover the "consistency" certain folks seem to want is impossible to deliver in the first place.
Even if the show is good (I really, really doubt it) it will always be seen as Halo adjacent, like a different IP wearing Halo like a skin.
Also I'd love to hear how genocidal aliens defined by their religious compulsion to purge humanity not raising them and characters staying the same race is impossible consistency to deliver. I get it, Halo canon is a hot mess and you can bring Guilty Spark back from the grave to team up with John Forge's renegade daughter (which makes less sense than Covies keeping a loyal human around to work Forerunner tech), that doesn't make this type of stuff not read like bad fan-fiction.
The Covenant working with humans prior to further that genocidal goal isn't even unprecedented prior to the schism(See: The Cole Protocol). Even taking that particular book out of the equation, is is really that surprising that out of the multiple billions if not trillions of individuals that are part of the Covenant Empire(of which we have seen surprisingly little) might have kept a human or two around for research, infiltration, or even sympathy during the course of a 26 year war? That kind of hivemind mentality would make the flood blush.

But none of that is really the point. I'm mainly wondering why this seems to be the breaking point for some people and the only answers I'm coming up with are not great.

I'm all for having higher standards, but once again we still know nothing about how it is actually going to turn out. The actual content of this new information just doesn't warrant this kind of response since we still have next to nothing to go off of. Its like the folks speculating that Infinite is going to be open world because of one trailer full of b roll.

The answer to whether the show will be any good is D.) Not enough information. Anything beyond that is rampant speculation.
You have to admit, all the lore inconsistencies are a bad first impression. I have no faith in these showrunners to make a good live-action adaptation when they can't even get basic facts of the Halo universe and its characters straight.
WerepyreND wrote:
You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!
And has managed to keep the visual canon consistent. Until now.
You sure?

Forward unto dawn Halo 3 vs Halo 4 design
New Mombasa Halo 2 vs Halo 3 ODST
Halsey looking 20 in legends
Pete stacker face Reach vs Halo trilogy face
Mirande keyes face Halo 2 vs anniversary

https://www.halopedia.org/List_of_inconsistencies_in_the_Halo_seriesChanging skin color is really small compared to the massive big errors that happened already. Atleast ethnicity change can be seen as artistic liberty, timeline changes however are unfixable.*points to Reach*
These plot stuff isn't major discrepancies, just some slight errors. Overall, the canon works well with some things here and there. Most of the inconsistencies are merely just oversights and and typos, not contradictions.
WerepyreND wrote:
I can't even begin to break down how wildly things have changed from game to game, comic to comic, etc or I would be here all day.
Well, try. Because nowhere in any game change has a character changed ethnicities or genders like this.

Quote:
Stares in Scarab
Returns in still moderately recognizable as a Scarab, despite being drawn first before the Type-47A Scarab.
You sure?
More or less, yes. The only one on your list that has anything near as drastic a change as this casting is Halsey in the equally wildly artistically liberal Halo Legends. Despite using a model for the Strident-class heavy frigate rather than the Charon-class light frigate (which 343 have stated that the Charon-class is the canonical appearance; the Strident-class was used due to game assets) the Forward Unto Dawn is still recognizable as a UNSC ship. New Mombasa as largely experienced in Halo 2 is Old Mombasa. Marcus Stacker? A white guy with a scruff, short goatee. Miranda Keyes? Up until now, a white woman with black hair akin to her mother.

Quote:
Changing skin color is really small compared to the massive big errors that happened already. Atleast ethnicity change can be seen as artistic liberty, timeline changes however are unfixable.*points to Reach*
With timeline "errors", we've already got established time travel through the Forerunner crystal. Ethnicity changes must be explained away as artistic liberty, but as that must now be done - because the Keyeses are white - what's the point? What is the actual point and purpose of changing their ethnicity, if not to pander? If it is necessary to have minority representation, why not introduce a new character (like this gods-awful Covenant wolf-child) rather than needlessly change what is?
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
Oh no, something was changed from The Fall of Reach
And Halo: CE, and Halo 2, and Halo 3, and countless visual and illustrated sources.
You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!
Don’t like when that’s done either, would like for them to stay consistent in that also. As I said, if this is an adaptation I’m cool with it.
You survived all those other instances, why not this one? What's a few more inconsistencies on top of an enormous pile of inconsistencies that have required people twisting themselves into knots trying to smooth out those inconsistencies? Surely is is easier to just chalk most of it up to artisitc differences and not sweat the small details, especially when sweating those details tends to create problems of their own.

Halo is not a carefully planned and managed franchise, inconsistencies are inevitable. The consistency you want was always an impossible ask. Sure it can feel great when the puzzle pieces line up, but at some point you got to accept that not all the pieces fit together nicely and you are going to have to make some compromises.
You're acting like a slight error made in good faith is the same as ignoring canon appearances and lore altogether. Talk about false equivalencies. Before I get to everything else wrong with this take, can we all put to bed this idiotic notion of "it's fiction so why does it matter?" My God, people use this line of reasoning as a crutch for blatantly disregarding the source material as if we should all forget what made these stories special in the first place. It's the most tired argument in the book and I'm sick of seeing it whenever people take too many liberties with a beloved franchise.

Regarding the pile of inconsistencies bit, so by that logic what's the point of even having a consistent series. Say what you want about the lore but it has managed to stay largely consistent up until now. Yeah, there have been rewrites, and I'm not looking for the series to have 100% perfect continuity, but for Christ's sake they've completely butchered the Father/Daughter dynamic between Keyes and Miranda. So you're telling me that I should just completely forget that Keyes and Miranda had an extremely close relationship and accept the "daughter with daddy issues" trope that is essentially every single female character at this point? They had an opportunity with Miranda to do something that isn't really being done with female characters nowadays and decided to throw it away for an archetype.

Saying Halo is not a carefully planned and managed franchise is valid, but the "hundreds of different writers, artists and directors" that have touched this franchise had the artistic common sense to keep characters consistent across this fictional UNIVERSE. These characters have been established for 18 years now and suddenly changing what makes up these characters is and will never be acceptable. I don't even care about the races. This is quite literally the very definition of bad fan fiction
shirtssss wrote:
JNDreher wrote:
shirtssss wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
More and more I find myself not giving a yoink! about whether something isn't "canon" or "doesn't fit the lore." I just want a good story well told. I want a great love action show set in the Halo universe, I could not care less it that results in certain details conflicting with "the lore."

The wider canon should be something we use to enrich the franchise as a whole, not something we use as a cudgel to stamp down any and all deviation.

As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white. It is curious how no one questions why they were made to be white in the first place. Clearly making them white was just a lazy attempt to pander to a demographic... sigh. Funny how the "pandering" "SJWs bad", "Get Woke, go broke" types only ever show up when minorities get cast in key roles and not when you see white male leads. They never ask for any narrative justification for that type of casting, what a coincidence.

On a final note: "This heavily violates the canon as far as we know." The bold part is kind of important. "We didn't know about this specific thing but now we do" is kind of the whole point of adding new things in the first place.
The canon should be respected, if not, then anything goes and that's honestly terrible. There should should be a single narrative, not flip floppy "anything goes", that's terrible. It has nothing to do with that they're black, it's that established characters are being race swapped for no reason. If they wanted these cast members in here, that's awesome,but don't change characters. If they want to deviate this far, that's fine. Just come out and say that this show isn't part of the canon and its own thing.
Casting actors who can best project the essence of Jacob and Miranda Keyes is respecting the lore more than ticking off every physical descriptor, imo.
Unfortunately it doesn't look like that's what's happening. The showrunners are ham-fistedly shoving their political ideologies into what used to be escapist entertainment, which always lowers the quality of the final product. The problem isn't that an established white character is cast by a black actor. The problem is that the reason the character was ethnicity-swapped was because he was a competent, likable leader, who happened to be a straight, white male... and as we all know the prevailing ideology of showrunners is "white-man-bad". I guarantee that if this show had an appearance of Captain Del Rio, they'd leave him white, because he's an antagonist who makes the wrong call when it comes to how to handle the Didact's return. And that is the problem. It's WHY they're making the changes, and the net affect on the quality of the show, not what specific changes are.
How are you so sure that they're doing this because of a political agenda? Is there an interview of Kyle Killin saying the casting was influenced by identity politics? Genuinely curious.
Basic critical observation of the movies and tv shows being made, often with interviews from the creators, shows that changes of characters' ethnicity, sex, or orientation are specifically to promote a particular political agenda.

Here are just a few examples of red-haired, white characters that suddenly became black in the latest adaptations (Note: red-haired people are one of the smaller minorities, but no one who makes a big deal about the other minorities cares about them at all):
M.J. (Spiderman)
Heimdall (Thor)
Jimmy Olsen (Supergirl)
Starfire (Titans)
Triss (The Witcher)
Ariel (The Little Mermaid)

Alternatively, a particular space-opera that shall remain nameless decided to perform character assassination upon all of the characters from the original series, and then actually kill those characters as a way of showing contempt for the fans who didn't like the politics they were proudly shoving into the new movies and advertising.
It's like they're saying, "there, the thing you liked is dead, now you have to like the new thing we're telling you to like, and if you don't, you're a terrible person."

All we want is for the franchises we love, and those of us who love them, to be respected, and for current sociopolitical ideologies to stay far, FAR away from the fantastical universes that we have until recently been able to escape to happily alongside people of drastically different points of view.
Also, it's just bad business to deliberately alienate half of your customer base, who've been loyal for 30+ years in some cases.
JNDreher wrote:
Heimdall (Thor)
For this one specifically, Heimdallr is never described as having red hair - Thor is, though. Heimdallr is only described as the "whitest of the Aesir".

Triss pisses me off a little, not gonna lie.
shirtssss wrote:
You have to admit, all the lore inconsistencies are a bad first impression. I have no faith in these showrunners to make a good live-action adaptation when they can't even get basic facts of the Halo universe and its characters straight.
1.) The Human character raised by the Covenant is just new lore and not inherently inconsistent with established lore. If you dislike that idea then fine, but if we can't stomach the idea of any non-hostile interactions between humans and covenant prior to the schism then I guess we better drop The Cole Protocol as well. Something being unprecedented doesn't inherently make it inconsistent with "the lore"
2.)The rank discrepancy with Jacob Keyes likely just a practical matter to more easily differentiate between the two
3.) This just leaves the change in ethnicity which really isn't that radical a change as many seem to make it out to be.
WerepyreND wrote:
I can't even begin to break down how wildly things have changed from game to game, comic to comic, etc or I would be here all day.
Well, try. Because nowhere in any game change has a character changed ethnicities or genders like this.
Quote:
Stares in Scarab
Returns in still moderately recognizable as a Scarab, despite being drawn first before the Type-47A Scarab.
It may not be a change in skin color, but I can tell I had no idea that this person was supposed to be Ellen Anders when the Halo Wars 2 trailers started dropping. Cutter also looks very different from his OG Halo Wars appearance. Both Characters have a change in voice actors. Miranda also changed VA's. Truth's VA changed along with his personality. Just to name a few.

So if facial features and voices can drastically change, the only thing you seem to draw the line at is ethnicity.....
What is the actual point and purpose of changing their ethnicity, if not to pander?
Could it be that maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, that the casting directors thought that they were the best actors who auditioned for those parts, but nope, must be "pandering."
You're acting like a slight error made in good faith is the same as ignoring canon appearances and lore altogether. Talk about false equivalencies. Before I get to everything else wrong with this take, can we all put to bed this idiotic notion of "it's fiction so why does it matter?" My God, people use this line of reasoning as a crutch for blatantly disregarding the source material as if we should all forget what made these stories special in the first place. It's the most tired argument in the book and I'm sick of seeing it whenever people take too many liberties with a beloved franchise.
Thing is I am not really talking about "errors" but deliberate visual changes that have been constant throughout the series' development. Everything from Second Sunrise over New Mombasa to 343's aesthetic in Halo 4 and 5(and parts of Halo Wars 2 Re: The ArK), Halo Legends, and even Bungie era games. Various appearances has changed to suit the needs of different artist, devs, etc throughout the entirety of Halo's existence.

"Its Fiction so why does it matter?" Good thing I never said that or that might be an issue. Pointing out the unrealistic expectations of "consistency" with a veritable revolving door of creative visions is not the same as saying anything goes. This thread is a perfect example of this overreaction to "inconsistencies" that these same folks have been letting slide constantly.
Quote:
Regarding the pile of inconsistencies bit, so by that logic what's the point of even having a consistent series. Say what you want about the lore but it has managed to stay largely consistent up until now. Yeah, there have been rewrites, and I'm not looking for the series to have 100% perfect continuity, but for Christ's sake they've completely butchered the Father/Daughter dynamic between Keyes and Miranda. So you're telling me that I should just completely forget that Keyes and Miranda had an extremely close relationship and accept the "daughter with daddy issues" trope that is essentially every single female character at this point? They had an opportunity with Miranda to do something that isn't really being done with female characters nowadays and decided to throw it away for an archetype.
I'm not claiming that inconsistencies don't matter, only that in this particular instance you are all making mountains out of molehills and all this supposed problems are small potatoes compared to what has come before. As far as relationship between Jacob and Miranda goes, they haven't "butchered" anything as of yet. The most I can find on the issue is one blurb that reads: "a dedicated military man, a war hero and a caring father. He finds that working alongside his daughter and his ex-wife is usually the cause of conflict rather than comfort." and "The friction between father and daughter will be explored in the new series." The former only mentions conflict in the context of all 3 family member being made to work together which given their collective history is bound to create some tension and as the for the latter even family members with "extremely close relationships" are not necessarily devoid of all conflict.

And all of that is a far cry from "Daddy Issues"
Quote:
Saying Halo is not a carefully planned and managed franchise is valid, but the "hundreds of different writers, artists and directors" that have touched this franchise had the artistic common sense to keep characters consistent across this fictional UNIVERSE. These characters have been established for 18 years now and suddenly changing what makes up these characters is and will never be acceptable. I don't even care about the races. This is quite literally the very definition of bad fan fiction
You can talk about how "unacceptable" this that or the other change is until you are blue in the face, but the inconsistencies are not going to be the reason why a particular piece of media is good or bad. You are also free to dislike the direction any particular piece of Halo media is taking, I know I have my fair share of issues, but that doesn't make it "bad fan fiction", especially considering that said piece of fiction doesn't actually exist yet.

The sky isn't falling.
The whole concept of a human raised by the covenant to hate her race is a terrible idea. If they want to save on CGI budget for a non-covenant enemy, we have the insurrection movement for that.

I would have no problem if the main enemy in the 1st season weren’t the covenant but rebel humans. That fits the lore far more then this anti-human human garbage that we are getting.
WerepyreND wrote:
It may not be a change in skin color, but I can tell I had no idea that this person was supposed to be Ellen Anders when the Halo Wars 2 trailers started dropping. Cutter also looks very different from his OG Halo Wars appearance. Both Characters have a change in voice actors. Miranda also changed VA's. Truth's VA changed along with his personality. Just to name a few.
Then you're incredibly short-sighted. Anders didn't show up in any of the Halo Wars 2 trailers until the "Know Your Enemy" ViDoc, and in that she's immediately referred to as "Professor". Not only that, but she remains Eurasian in appearance, with black hair and dark brown eyes. Hell, they kept her two facial moles the same. Cutter remains as an aged European man with a straight nose, white (due to age) hair and blue eyes.

Despite changes due to updated capture technology (Halo Wars 1 worked off modeled renders, rather than actor features), who the characters are, visually, did not change. The same goes for Miranda and Truth.

Quote:
So if facial features and voices can drastically change, the only thing you seem to draw the line at is ethnicity...
Only the facial features did not drastically change. But yes, good that you're paying attention here and that the change in ethnicity is the issue.

Let me ask you - and I want an answer here, not deflection - what's the point for this change? In your mind, what goal or purpose does this serve? "Why not" or "it's just fiction" are not answers.

Quote:
Could it be that maybe, and I'm just spitballing here, that the casting directors thought that they were the best actors who auditioned for those parts, but nope, must be "pandering."
Yes, it is pandering. Because I refuse to believe that it was so difficult for them to cast the Established Characters properly. Being a good actor means nothing if the character they're being cast for is fundamentally wrong - and to be clear, I would be just as outraged if a white actor was cast as Johnson. Imagine, for a moment, Bruce WIllis as Johnson. It would be just as outrageous and wrong.
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