I think it’s more likely the show won’t be canon

TheKiltdHeathen wrote:

hotshot revanII wrote:

You sure?

More or less, yes. The only one on your list that has anything near as drastic a change as this casting is Halsey in the equally wildly artistically liberal Halo Legends. Despite using a model for the Strident-class heavy frigate rather than the Charon-class light frigate (which 343 have stated that the Charon-class is the canonical appearance; the Strident-class was used due to game assets) the Forward Unto Dawn is still recognizable as a UNSC ship. New Mombasa as largely experienced in Halo 2 is Old Mombasa. Marcus Stacker? A white guy with a scruff, short goatee. Miranda Keyes? Up until now, a white woman with black hair akin to her mother.

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Changing skin color is really small compared to the massive big errors that happened already. Atleast ethnicity change can be seen as artistic liberty, timeline changes however are unfixable.*points to Reach*

With timeline "errors", we've already got established time travel through the Forerunner crystal. Ethnicity changes must be explained away as artistic liberty, but as that must now be done - because the Keyeses are white - what's the point? What is the actual point and purpose of changing their ethnicity, if not to pander? If it is necessary to have minority representation, why not introduce a new character (like this gods-awful Covenant wolf-child) rather than needlessly change what is?

a) And despite having dark skinned Jacob rather of a light skinned jacob, captain keyes is still recognizable as a human being and not a klingon or a jawa. Reach/CE Keyes is the canon appearance while black Keyes is like legends Halsey or Halo 4 FUD. It wasn't a big deal then nor shouldn't it be now. I would be more worried about the story, that's what matters most.

"New Mombasa as largely experienced in Halo 2 is Old Mombasa."
Outskirts: old mombasa
metropolis: new mombasa

You can take out all pictures of Mombasa in Halo 2, ODST and anniversarry and compare them. For example the space elevator was in the city(Halo 2) and not on a seperate island(ODST). The carrier was above the city(Halo 2) instead of that park(ODST)

Still Stacker has a whole different face in Reach then Halo CE-3. People even thought it was colonel holland. Face change isn't just skin color, it's facial features as well. If Edward Buck has nathan fillions face and they would change it to Brad Pitt, would you care as they are both white yet have still different face?

b) The Forerunner crystal was only involved in First Strike and had nothing to do with the events portrayed in Halo Reach. Yes you are right they are artistic liberty. I don't know why they did either. I would be worried more about if it has a good story or not. Critics and new fans will not be concerned with the ethnicity change, just like marvel movies and game of thrones. If it has a bad story then that will ruin the Halo brand, even if Keyes was white.

So my take is: it's an unnecessary change which i see as non-canon but one that does not hurt the story.

TRUe REDEMPTI0N wrote:

hotshot revanII wrote:

TheKiltdHeathen wrote:

WerepyreND wrote:

You mean a franchise that has been touched by hundreds of different writer, artists, directors, etc across numerous mediums isn't totally cohesive? Zut Alors!

And has managed to keep the visual canon consistent. Until now.

You sure?

Forward unto dawn Halo 3 vs Halo 4 design
New Mombasa Halo 2 vs Halo 3 ODST
Halsey looking 20 in legends
Pete stacker face Reach vs Halo trilogy face
Mirande keyes face Halo 2 vs anniversary

https://www.halopedia.org/List_of_inconsistencies_in_the_Halo_seriesChanging skin color is really small compared to the massive big errors that happened already. Atleast ethnicity change can be seen as artistic liberty, timeline changes however are unfixable.*points to Reach*

These plot stuff isn't major discrepancies, just some slight errors. Overall, the canon works well with some things here and there. Most of the inconsistencies are merely just oversights and and typos, not contradictions.

Yes, but not the Reach errors. The ethnicity change is on the same level of canon inconsistencies as...literally all design changes we've had on established stuff like FUD or installation 04 in CEA. The Reach errors are much higher tho

WerepyreND wrote:

shirtssss wrote:

You have to admit, all the lore inconsistencies are a bad first impression. I have no faith in these showrunners to make a good live-action adaptation when they can't even get basic facts of the Halo universe and its characters straight.

1.) The Human character raised by the Covenant is just new lore and not inherently inconsistent with established lore. If you dislike that idea then fine, but if we can't stomach the idea of any non-hostile interactions between humans and covenant prior to the schism then I guess we better drop The Cole Protocol as well. Something being unprecedented doesn't inherently make it inconsistent with "the lore"
2.)The rank discrepancy with Jacob Keyes likely just a practical matter to more easily differentiate between the two
3.) This just leaves the change in ethnicity which really isn't that radical a change as many seem to make it out to be.

Raising a human child is entirely inconsistent with the Prophets clearly expressed intent to exterminate humanity, in order to hide the fact that humans — not the Covenant — were the true successors of the Mantle. Attempting to extort Earth's location from insurrectionists is miles apart and doesn't require any mental gymnastics.

Because giving Jacob Keyes the proper rank would be too confusing for fans, but not making him a black man.

WerepyreND wrote:

shirtssss wrote:

WerepyreND wrote:

shirtssss wrote:

You have to admit, all the lore inconsistencies are a bad first impression. I have no faith in these showrunners to make a good live-action adaptation when they can't even get basic facts of the Halo universe and its characters straight.

1.) The Human character raised by the Covenant is just new lore and not inherently inconsistent with established lore. If you dislike that idea then fine, but if we can't stomach the idea of any non-hostile interactions between humans and covenant prior to the schism then I guess we better drop The Cole Protocol as well. Something being unprecedented doesn't inherently make it inconsistent with "the lore"
2.)The rank discrepancy with Jacob Keyes likely just a practical matter to more easily differentiate between the two
3.) This just leaves the change in ethnicity which really isn't that radical a change as many seem to make it out to be.

Raising a human child is entirely inconsistent with the Prophets clearly expressed intent to exterminate humanity, in order to hide the fact that humans — not the Covenant — were the true successors of the Mantle. Attempting to extort Earth's location from insurrectionists is miles apart and doesn't require any mental gymnastics.

Because giving Jacob Keyes the proper rank would be too confusing for fans, but not making him a black man.

If for example they are raised as an infiltrator for the expressed purpose of accelerating that goal I don't see that as being all that radical. It doesn't even necessarily mean that it is even sanctioned by the Covenant leadership. You don't have to go through any mental gymnastics to understand spies are useful or that the Covenant is not a hive mind.

When, I say "differentiate between the two" I mean that it would be cumbersome in the dialogue to have them both be 'Commander Keyes' not that people literally won't know who is who. I honestly can't fathom how that is supposed to be some grievous offense that he is a Captain a little earlier than previously stated. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't recall any instances where him being a Commander rather than a Captain had any significance to the plot beyond how he was referred to.

Humanity merely existing is a threat to the very foundation of the Covenant religion. Adopting a human child would be seen as blasphemy, and the guilty party would be promptly executed. So what does that leave us with — a rogue elite somehow taking in an orphaned child and raising it in complete secrecy for years? And for what end, infiltration? How would a young adult who has been isolated from its species the majority of its life be effective at espionage? How would the human communicate important information back to daddy elite? How would daddy elite explain he got this information? And why would daddy elite drop off a human spy on presumably a human colony instead of just glassing it? Calling this bad fanfic does a disservice to fanfic.

Needing to change Jacob Keyes's rank to avoid confusion comes off as very amature-ish to me. And I'm not convinced the showrunners even knew Jacob Keyes wasn't a captain at this point in time.

shirtssss wrote:

WerepyreND wrote:

shirtssss wrote:

WerepyreND wrote:

shirtssss wrote:

You have to admit, all the lore inconsistencies are a bad first impression. I have no faith in these showrunners to make a good live-action adaptation when they can't even get basic facts of the Halo universe and its characters straight.

1.) The Human character raised by the Covenant is just new lore and not inherently inconsistent with established lore. If you dislike that idea then fine, but if we can't stomach the idea of any non-hostile interactions between humans and covenant prior to the schism then I guess we better drop The Cole Protocol as well. Something being unprecedented doesn't inherently make it inconsistent with "the lore"
2.)The rank discrepancy with Jacob Keyes likely just a practical matter to more easily differentiate between the two
3.) This just leaves the change in ethnicity which really isn't that radical a change as many seem to make it out to be.

Raising a human child is entirely inconsistent with the Prophets clearly expressed intent to exterminate humanity, in order to hide the fact that humans — not the Covenant — were the true successors of the Mantle. Attempting to extort Earth's location from insurrectionists is miles apart and doesn't require any mental gymnastics.

Because giving Jacob Keyes the proper rank would be too confusing for fans, but not making him a black man.

If for example they are raised as an infiltrator for the expressed purpose of accelerating that goal I don't see that as being all that radical. It doesn't even necessarily mean that it is even sanctioned by the Covenant leadership. You don't have to go through any mental gymnastics to understand spies are useful or that the Covenant is not a hive mind.

When, I say "differentiate between the two" I mean that it would be cumbersome in the dialogue to have them both be 'Commander Keyes' not that people literally won't know who is who. I honestly can't fathom how that is supposed to be some grievous offense that he is a Captain a little earlier than previously stated. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't recall any instances where him being a Commander rather than a Captain had any significance to the plot beyond how he was referred to.

Humanity merely existing is a threat to the very foundation of the Covenant religion. Adopting a human child would be seen as blasphemy, and the guilty party would be promptly executed. So what does that leave us with — a rogue elite somehow taking in an orphaned child and raising it in complete secrecy for years? And for what end, infiltration? How would a young adult who has been isolated from its species the majority of its life be effective at espionage? How would the human communicate important information back to daddy elite? How would daddy elite explain he got this information? And why would daddy elite drop off a human spy on presumably a human colony instead of just glassing it? Calling this bad fanfic does a disservice to fanfic.

Needing to change Jacob Keyes's rank to avoid confusion comes off as very amature-ish to me. And I'm not convinced the showrunners even knew Jacob Keyes wasn't a captain at this point in time.

The threat humanity poses to Covenant religion is precisely the reason that this information is not widely known, which is why it wouldn't be all that that surprising if lower ranked members of the Covenant be they Prophets, Elites, or even Brutes might get some dangerous ideas in their head to try and rise in the ranks. The idea that there isn't any division among a Covenant empire composed of billions(trillions?) of individuals are all equally filled with unquestioning religious fervor that no one would ever break the rules for personal gain, for the sake of finally crushing humanity, or even genuine sympathy is frankly pretty boring. We already have a Hive-mind, its called the Flood.

As for the actual human character, they are just orphaned, not necessarily raised from birth and can more than likely remember enough to get the job done. As with the Covenant of the multiple billions of people one person being kind of off doesn't necessarily raise the alarm. Its not as if they need to infiltrate deep into human society to get their hands on the navigation data that could lead to even more worlds to glass.

Ultimately none of this really matters because what we are both doing it little more than rampant speculation about a tiny blurb of an article. Feel free to dislike that particular narrative thread, I honestly don't care for it that much either, but stamping your feet and declaring it "bad fan fiction" or that is "violates canon" doesn't actually make it so...

WerepyreND wrote:

shirtssss wrote:

WerepyreND wrote:

shirtssss wrote:

WerepyreND wrote:

shirtssss wrote:

You have to admit, all the lore inconsistencies are a bad first impression. I have no faith in these showrunners to make a good live-action adaptation when they can't even get basic facts of the Halo universe and its characters straight.

1.) The Human character raised by the Covenant is just new lore and not inherently inconsistent with established lore. If you dislike that idea then fine, but if we can't stomach the idea of any non-hostile interactions between humans and covenant prior to the schism then I guess we better drop The Cole Protocol as well. Something being unprecedented doesn't inherently make it inconsistent with "the lore"
2.)The rank discrepancy with Jacob Keyes likely just a practical matter to more easily differentiate between the two
3.) This just leaves the change in ethnicity which really isn't that radical a change as many seem to make it out to be.

Raising a human child is entirely inconsistent with the Prophets clearly expressed intent to exterminate humanity, in order to hide the fact that humans — not the Covenant — were the true successors of the Mantle. Attempting to extort Earth's location from insurrectionists is miles apart and doesn't require any mental gymnastics.

Because giving Jacob Keyes the proper rank would be too confusing for fans, but not making him a black man.

If for example they are raised as an infiltrator for the expressed purpose of accelerating that goal I don't see that as being all that radical. It doesn't even necessarily mean that it is even sanctioned by the Covenant leadership. You don't have to go through any mental gymnastics to understand spies are useful or that the Covenant is not a hive mind.

When, I say "differentiate between the two" I mean that it would be cumbersome in the dialogue to have them both be 'Commander Keyes' not that people literally won't know who is who. I honestly can't fathom how that is supposed to be some grievous offense that he is a Captain a little earlier than previously stated. Maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't recall any instances where him being a Commander rather than a Captain had any significance to the plot beyond how he was referred to.

Humanity merely existing is a threat to the very foundation of the Covenant religion. Adopting a human child would be seen as blasphemy, and the guilty party would be promptly executed. So what does that leave us with — a rogue elite somehow taking in an orphaned child and raising it in complete secrecy for years? And for what end, infiltration? How would a young adult who has been isolated from its species the majority of its life be effective at espionage? How would the human communicate important information back to daddy elite? How would daddy elite explain he got this information? And why would daddy elite drop off a human spy on presumably a human colony instead of just glassing it? Calling this bad fanfic does a disservice to fanfic.

Needing to change Jacob Keyes's rank to avoid confusion comes off as very amature-ish to me. And I'm not convinced the showrunners even knew Jacob Keyes wasn't a captain at this point in time.

The threat humanity poses to Covenant religion is precisely the reason that this information is not widely known, which is why it wouldn't be all that that surprising if lower ranked members of the Covenant be they Prophets, Elites, or even Brutes might get some dangerous ideas in their head to try and rise in the ranks. The idea that there isn't any division among a Covenant empire composed of billions(trillions?) of individuals are all equally filled with unquestioning religious fervor that no one would ever break the rules for personal gain, for the sake of finally crushing humanity, or even genuine sympathy is frankly pretty boring. We already have a Hive-mind, its called the Flood.

As for the actual human character, they are just orphaned, not necessarily raised from birth and can more than likely remember enough to get the job done. As with the Covenant of the multiple billions of people one person being kind of off doesn't necessarily raise the alarm. Its not as if they need to infiltrate deep into human society to get their hands on the navigation data that could lead to even more worlds to glass.

Ultimately none of this really matters because what we are both doing it little more than rampant speculation about a tiny blurb of an article. Feel free to dislike that particular narrative thread, I honestly don't care for it that much either, but stamping your feet and declaring it "bad fan fiction" or that is "violates canon" doesn't actually make it so...

I'm saying indoctrinating a human child to use as a Covenant spy is impractical given the nature of the Covenant and the logistics that would be involved. Don't confuse that with there being no division within the Covenant.

Expressing my disapproval for the confirmed series antagonist is far from rampant speculation.

WerepyreND wrote:

More and more I find myself not giving a yoink! about whether something isn't "canon" or "doesn't fit the lore." I just want a good story well told. I want a great love action show set in the Halo universe, I could not care less it that results in certain details conflicting with "the lore."

The wider canon should be something we use to enrich the franchise as a whole, not something we use as a cudgel to stamp down any and all deviation.

As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white. It is curious how no one questions why they were made to be white in the first place. Clearly making them white was just a lazy attempt to pander to a demographic... sigh. Funny how the "pandering" "SJWs bad", "Get Woke, go broke" types only ever show up when minorities get cast in key roles and not when you see white male leads. They never ask for any narrative justification for that type of casting, what a coincidence.

On a final note: "This heavily violates the canon as far as we know." The bold part is kind of important. "We didn't know about this specific thing but now we do" is kind of the whole point of adding new things in the first place.

I knew someone would post something like this sooner or later. People get upset about a race swap and there’s always someone who screams racism. It’s sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way.

Our frustrations have literally nothing to do with less white people. It’s the fact that they changed a pretty significant trait of well established characters. I’m 100% certain I speak for everyone when I say we’d be equally as pissed if they cast Johnson as a white guy. Or if they made Kelly a male. Heck, I remember 2 years ago when people were upset when Professor Anders wasn’t Asian anymore in Halo Wars 2!

Stop screaming racism when people go out of their way to change the race of pre established characters because you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

TRUe REDEMPTI0N wrote:

Charlie Murphy will play a new character called Makee, described as being an orphan raised by the Covenant to hate her own kind.

I've got a bad feeling about this show already.

TRUe REDEMPTI0N wrote:

Hidden just put out an excellent vid, check it out here.

I've seen that and thats what led me to finding this forum topic *shocker*. He's right too; if the Halo TV show is inaccurate with the trademark lore, its just a tragedy waiting to happen like The Super Mario Bros. Movie, and more recently Sonic The Hedgehog 2019 (not even Jim Carry and all the CGI can save THAT disaster-about-to-happen). With the idea that the lore is very botched-up in the TV show, along with other past disasters (MCC's Launch, and most of 5), if it comes out without any proper changes that DOES fall in line with the trademark lore at all, it could be a bad omen that could ruin the hopes many of us have for Infinite and all of Halo. Even though 343 is riling us up with a few BTS stuff like live sound recordings (remember Gyoza the Pug on instagram?), the fact that THIS is happening and already the community (both flavors of it) are rather ticked about this disservice to the story, it could doom Infinite and, to a lesser extent, kill the franchise for good...

Maybe I should prepare myself to cry to sleep one day if this actually happens to both...

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"Soon the Great Journey shall begin. But when it does, the weight of your heresy will stay your feet. And you shall be left behind." ~ The Prophet of Truth

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"If they came to hear me beg, they will be disappointed." ~ Arbiter Thel 'Vadam

WerepyreND wrote:

I like how I'm apparently short-sighted for not realizing two moles and black hair and dark brown eyes are supposed to be seriously distinguishing features

You forgot the Eurasian features as well. See, I'd be just as outraged then if Anders was suddenly Scottish or even Eastern European.

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I am also glad we are willing to toss away iconic voice work as if that isn't a defining feature of an audio-visual medium that isn't live action. Nope, who a character is is entirely tied to their ethnicity /s

Contracts - covering voice acting - are much more difficult to maintain than a visual appearance, I would imagine. Namely in that it's not impossible at all - and infact, takes unnecessary effort - to change the ethnicity of a character. And yes, this is one of the issues with this casting here, obviously. Characters should be left as they are, and if representation is truly an issue (which it never was) new characters should be introduced. This is absolutely not impossible to do, as we've seen with characters like Anders, Tanaka, Locke, Palmer, and the new "Dustin Echoes".

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There isn't a "point",

Then it is, by definition, a pointless change. There is no conceivable rhyme or reason to it, aside from pandering. Playing with a character - yes, even their ethnicity which you repeatedly drum out "isn't important" - like they're so much putty is careless, and when a stunt like this is pulled for no reason whatsoever, it does not bode well for future fast-and-loose handlings of the canon. Furthermore, a person's worth is not determined by the color of their skin, true. Yet their heritage, their visual appearance, and indeed to a degree their cultural presence, is. Jacob and Miranda Keyes are depicted consistently in several articles of lore as being white. These include: Halo: Combat Evolved; Halo 2; The Halo Graphic Novel; Halo 3; Halo Legends, Odd One Out, Origins; Halsey's Journal; Halo: Reach; Halo: Fall of Reach (Comic); Halo: Combat Evolved Anniversary; Halo 2: Anniversary; Halo: Escalation; Halo: Fleet Battles; Halo: The Fall of Reach - The Animated Series; Halo Mythos; and Halo 5.

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Now then please tell me what the "point" was for making these two characters white in the first place?

No, this isn't something to where having a "point" comes into play. That's simply the character design. The point of my argument, however, is that the character as designed - and established in no less than 17 articles of canonical representation (not counting novels, which likely give physical description) - should not be so flippantly altered when it serves no purpose, point, or benefit to the character. Leave the characters as they were designed and created, it is not that difficult.

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Apparently I have to tell each of you individually that Johnson is a bad comparison.

No, it's really not. I think you just don't want to make the comparison because it's detrimental to your case. Especially now that you're singing a different tune; where before the character of Jacob Keyes isn't contingent on his ethnicity but of course Johnson is absolutely reliant on being black because he was based off Gunnery Sergeant Al Apone, who is also black. Can't change that, of course.

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Recasting underrepresented minority characters is simply not equivalent to to recasting white characters

It absolutely is. Because the Halo Universe is large enough and accomodating enough to where white Characters don't need to be recast in an ethnic shift. Underrepresented minorities can absolutely be added to the Mythos - and they have been - without altering characters that are. It is unnecessary to do so when there is ample room for addition, rather than assimilation.

Frankie said this on resetera yesterday here

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we’ll discuss more about the plot and framing soon and while we’re still not going to discuss spoilers we’re also not going to be vague about frame of reference for fans. We’ll be clear and open. Right now we’re focused on getting prepped to roll film and finish pre production.

Interesting that he mentions 'frame of reference'. I get the feeling when that within in the next 6 months, they're gonna officially state whether or not the show will be canon or not. I'm leaning towards them saying no, it's not canon.