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I think it’s more likely the show won’t be canon

OP TRUe REDEMPTI0N

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Frankie said this on resetera yesterday here
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we’ll discuss more about the plot and framing soon and while we’re still not going to discuss spoilers we’re also not going to be vague about frame of reference for fans. We’ll be clear and open. Right now we’re focused on getting prepped to roll film and finish pre production.
Interesting that he mentions 'frame of reference'. I get the feeling when that within in the next 6 months, they're gonna officially state whether or not the show will be canon or not. I'm leaning towards them saying no, it's not canon.
Well with Miranda being a doctor, Halsey and Jacob being married, and a human being raised by the Covenant, I certainly hope this show won't be canon. I'm not interested in "branch canon" or "alternate canon".. either it's canon or its not, and it's as simple as that for me.

Can we just have some news about Halo that doesn't come with some sort of hitch or snag? Infinite will have microtransactions and the TV show is breaking canon. Reach better go off without a hitch lol.. that's about all I have at this point that is entirely positive, aside from that fact that the release date is being designated as "ready when it's ready". I'm not really bothered by that fact, but I am bothered by the fact that not a single piece of news about Halo in the last year has come with zero strings attached.
WerepyreND wrote:
shirtssss wrote:
I'm saying indoctrinating a human child to use as a Covenant spy is impractical given the nature of the Covenant and the logistics that would be involved. Don't confuse that with there being no division within the Covenant.

Expressing my disapproval for the confirmed series antagonist is far from rampant speculation.
I think you are vastly overestimating the "logistics" involved in dealing with exactly one individual. The Covenant can apparently sneak a 28km long ship into one of the most heavily defended human worlds, but sneaking one individual into even an outer colony is apparently too big an ask.....

And if I'm reading the same articles as everyone else, announcing one antagonist does not make them the antagonist. Again, rampant speculation.

I'm going to continue to reiterate that I fully understand that that particular plot point could end up being awful if it isn't done carefully, I can tell you that my first reaction to that detail was not positive, only that maybe wait till we get past the table reading before having a meltdown.
Lol OK, let me correct myself, then: this antagonist (the only one announced so far) is doo doo. Waiting till the show airs won't change that.

Transportation is only a part of military logistics. Imagine how hard it would be for an individual or even a small group of individuals to raise and utilize a human spy without anyone finding out? Sure, it's possible — it's never be explicitly stated that this has never happened — but why tell a story about something so outlandish in the first place? And are we just going to ignore the fact the Covenant had Lumanires (a device that detects humanity and her colonies as forerunner artifacts) on every ship — which led to the war in the first place! Literally no point having a human agent uncover human colonies when you have something that can already do that infinitely better.

This, coupled with the fact that they butchered Miranda's character so thoroughly, leaves me with little confidence in Showtime being able to produce a quality Halo series.
Frankie said this on resetera yesterday here
Quote:
we’ll discuss more about the plot and framing soon and while we’re still not going to discuss spoilers we’re also not going to be vague about frame of reference for fans. We’ll be clear and open. Right now we’re focused on getting prepped to roll film and finish pre production.
Interesting that he mentions 'frame of reference'. I get the feeling when that within in the next 6 months, they're gonna officially state whether or not the show will be canon or not. I'm leaning towards them saying no, it's not canon.
Well with Miranda being a doctor, Halsey and Jacob being married, and a human being raised by the Covenant, I certainly hope this show won't be canon. I'm not interested in "branch canon" or "alternate canon".. either it's canon or its not, and it's as simple as that for me.

Can we just have some news about Halo that doesn't come with some sort of hitch or snag? Infinite will have microtransactions and the TV show is breaking canon. Reach better go off without a hitch lol.. that's about all I have at this point that is entirely positive, aside from that fact that the release date is being designated as "ready when it's ready". I'm not really bothered by that fact, but I am bothered by the fact that not a single piece of news about Halo in the last year has come with zero strings attached.
Yeah, they should just come out and make it clear and to the point, not some 'branch' or 'AU'. At least I think I'll be able to like the show more and enjoy it when they tell us it's non-canon existence.
I'll breath easier at the handling of official Canon if this show is marked as non-canon, but I still won't watch it. I have no interest in non-canon.
I'll breath easier at the handling of official Canon if this show is marked as non-canon, but I still won't watch it. I have no interest in non-canon.
Did you see on resetera that Frankie said that 'soon' they will inform us of the show's 'frame of reference'? I think they're gonna wait a while before officially telling us it's not canon.
I'll breath easier at the handling of official Canon if this show is marked as non-canon, but I still won't watch it. I have no interest in non-canon.
Did you see on resetera that Frankie said that 'soon' they will inform us of the show's 'frame of reference'? I think they're gonna wait a while before officially telling us it's not canon.
The sad thing is that it doesn't have to be non-canon. The Halo universe is ripe with potential story lines that fit in with established canon. They don't have to retcon major plot points to make a good story. That's what makes this news about the show so aggravating. There's no logical reason to make these changes when the previously established Halo universe has more than enough room to accommodate new story lines anyway.
I'll breath easier at the handling of official Canon if this show is marked as non-canon, but I still won't watch it. I have no interest in non-canon.
Did you see on resetera that Frankie said that 'soon' they will inform us of the show's 'frame of reference'? I think they're gonna wait a while before officially telling us it's not canon.
The sad thing is that it doesn't have to be non-canon. The Halo universe is ripe with potential story lines that fit in with established canon. They don't have to retcon major plot points to make a good story. That's what makes this news about the show so aggravating. There's no logical reason to make these changes when the previously established Halo universe has more than enough room to accommodate new story lines anyway.
So true. Man they could've told so many different types of stories and remained faithful to the canon. But oh well. We'll get what we get. More than likely they'll announce it's not canon.
See, I'd be just as outraged then if Anders was suddenly Scottish or even Eastern European
Being "just as outraged" is exactly the problem because these two cases are not equivalent, one is decidedly worse than the other.
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Contracts - covering voice acting - are much more difficult to maintain than a visual appearance, I would imagine. Namely in that it's not impossible at all - and infact, takes unnecessary effort - to change the ethnicity of a character. And yes, this is one of the issues with this casting here, obviously. Characters should be left as they are, and if representation is truly an issue (which it never was) new characters should be introduced. This is absolutely not impossible to do, as we've seen with characters like Anders, Tanaka, Locke, Palmer, and the new "Dustin Echoes".
Oh I'm glad we able acknowledge real life factors when making creative decisions. So are we also going to acknowledge that the "unnecessary effort" can be as benign as having open casting call and liking these particular actors? Somehow I doubt it.

P.S. Stating "representation was never an issue" doesn't inherently make it so.
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There isn't a "point",
Then it is, by definition, a pointless change. There is no conceivable rhyme or reason to it, aside from pandering. Playing with a character - yes, even their ethnicity which you repeatedly drum out "isn't important" - like they're so much putty is careless, and when a stunt like this is pulled for no reason whatsoever, it does not bode well for future fast-and-loose handlings of the canon.
"There is no conceivable rhyme or reason to it, aside from pandering" or they just really liked the actors, but who am I kidding, that has never entered your mind.

I've never said "ethnicity isn't important", only that it isn't necessarily a defining feature with every character. Playing fast-and-loose with the canon has been the default state of the franchise from day one.
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Now then please tell me what the "point" was for making these two characters white in the first place?
No, this isn't something to where having a "point" comes into play. That's simply the character design. The point of my argument, however, is that the character as designed - and established in no less than 17 articles of canonical representation (not counting novels, which likely give physical description) - should not be so flippantly altered when it serves no purpose, point, or benefit to the character. Leave the characters as they were designed and created, it is not that difficult.
First come first being the sole deciding factor for how someone or something is portrayed is one needlessly restrictive and two wholly ignores the context of how they came to be in the first place. As nice as it would be if biases, unconscious or not, was never a factor in life and everything was based on merit, that simply isn't the case.
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Apparently I have to tell each of you individually that Johnson is a bad comparison.
No, it's really not. I think you just don't want to make the comparison because it's detrimental to your case. Especially now that you're singing a different tune; where before the character of Jacob Keyes isn't contingent on his ethnicity but of course Johnson is absolutely reliant on being black because he was based off Gunnery Sergeant Al Apone, who is also black. Can't change that, of course.
I feel my tune has been pretty consistent. Two things that look similar on the surface are not necessarily the same. Context matters, a blanket policy is not appropriate when you factor in real life considerations like bias during the process of creating a new character. Bringing up "but what if they made Johnson white" is the most predicable response I could have imagined even before I clicked on the thread. It is not the strong argument you all seem to think it, and it always reads as covering your behind for the moment when folks begin to question why you are so dis-proportionally upset about casting minority actors. Especially when you seem perfectly willing to make exceptions everywhere else.

It isn't hypocritical to say that Johnson is tied to his ethnicity when he was originally a reference to a specific actor's take on a specific character. I also still stand by the statement that it is far more questionable to recast historically underrepresented minorities with white characters than the other way around.
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Recasting underrepresented minority characters is simply not equivalent to to recasting white characters
It absolutely is. Because the Halo Universe is large enough and accomodating enough to where white Characters don't need to be recast in an ethnic shift. Underrepresented minorities can absolutely be added to the Mythos - and they have been - without altering characters that are. It is unnecessary to do so when there is ample room for addition, rather than assimilation.
The Halo universe absolutely is large enough to accommodate everyone, but the Halo universe doesn't come fully formed out of a magical wellspring, it is made by imperfect human beings who are not always great at doing the accommodating. New characters are great, but sometimes it is just more straightforward recast a character when it is appropriate, which isn't all the time.

The thing is that its all moot, because the ethnicity of both Keyes' has not as of yet been retconned. Their physical appearance may be incongruous with their previous portrayals, something which has happened constantly within the Halo franchise, but it will not invalidate what came before any more than any other inconsistency you seem to tolerate.
I’m not understanding why some can’t seem to realize the importance of characters remaining true to who they are. Imagine if...
-Twilight sequels replaced the cast with Asian actors, but kept the same names
-Bad Boys sequels no longer starred Martin Lawrence and Will Smith but instead cast 2 white guys and carried the same names of Mike and Marcus
-Creed replaced Michael B Jordan with a Mexican actor
- Darth Vader no longer was dressed in black, but instead all silver

You see how much of a mess it creates? There’s no continuity. There’s 0 reason for changing ethnicity of characters in anything, whether it be a movie, show, a game, or a book. If a character is given physical traits on a tv screen or in a book, then keep true to those traits. Imagine if Sgt Johnson was cast in this show and they chose David Spade. It’d be an equal reason for outrage. But to be honest, this is the least of my concerns. A producer unfamiliar with sci fi or genres particular to Halo is in charge of this show. That alone should prove this show is in danger. It’s Halo, the fans don’t want to watch a boring show with little to no action.
After the last press release about the show, I truly hope it isn't.

The issues with the changes in ethnicity are being blown out of proportion but are also not be addressed the way they should. Whether you like it or not, a persons ethnicity does make their character. A lot of people bring up the Sgt. Johnson example and it holds, but it's not the point here. If you change the core of a character (for whatever reason) you are then bringing in different interpretations (history, cultural interactions) that may not align with who that character is. Ask yourself, why change them in the first place? However, I'm sure these actors know what they're doing and in the end I just want good entertainment, but there is a price to be paid when changing aspects of characters, and race, while a touchy subject, is not exempt from this.

That aside, my biggest concerns are

-Miranda being a doctor
-Makee, a human raised by Covenant, and
-Issues with both of the Keyes ranks

Again these are rather large changes that will impact the rest of the Halo lore if this is in anyway cannon. It makes me wonder how much influence showtime has on the story. I think 343 should assess who is making these changes if they want to protect their IP.
This is certainly concerning..... Ill reserve judgment for when the trailer / reviews come out though...

But currently it looks like the person running it doesn't know the lore that well... which is very very bad.
No way this is canon.
I'll breath easier at the handling of official Canon if this show is marked as non-canon, but I still won't watch it. I have no interest in non-canon.
You have done a very good job with explaining the reason why most Halo fans have a problem with the direction the show is going. I agree with you on basically everything you said. The people arguing with you do not understand that changing the ethnicities of major characters disrupts the continuity of the Halo universe. The Covenant would also never raise a human orphan. Anyone with a basic comprehension of the Halo canon would understand that. Miranda having a doctorate and Jacob and Halsey being divorced also ruins continuity. The goal of the franchise should be to fix current continuity issues and not create more. If they want to cast certain actors that do not fit with preexisting canon they should create new characters. Do not let the ramblings of a few delusional individuals dissuade you. I hope it is not too late to fix these glaring issues. This TV show could be a wonderful edition to the Halo canon if done properly, but I fear that it is currently going in the wrong direction.
At the end of the day, I just want to watch something good. At first the idea of a canon breaking show was troubling, but look at game of thrones. It was a adaption that was based on the books universe and was really good, except for the last two seasons. Why wont this be any different? And I personally think people are being dramatic on the whole human raised by the covenant bit. In the Cole Protocol there is a whole human/covenant colony that lived with each other peacefully for the longest time. So even then it shows that something like that was possible for certain parts. Because lets remember the covenant is huge, there are going to be different ideologies and dissenters in the ranks which does allow wiggle room every now and then for something to be the exception to the rule.
WerepyreND wrote:
As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white.
Accept every Halo game the show is to be based in the Universe of.
*repost to the "official halo tv show thread" from my locked one. Specficially on the aspect of a human in the covenant

So I know a lot of people are up in arms about this, but I personally am very interested in this concept and something that is not already new in the canon. If I remember correctly, in The Cole Protocol, there was actively covenant working together with insurrectionists in the asteroid belt. So the concept that some section of the covenant taking humans into their ranks or at least working with them is not unheard of. I do believe that this will be a interesting idea and something that could be interesting in the main canon. Like how ONI stoked civil war in the Elites, whose to say a anarchist alien group or some sort of prophet shadow group could supply insurrectionists with material or train soldiers? It even makes sense in the fact that having spies or sleeper agents working for various factions that seem odd (like a human in the covenant) would work. Human bent on survival, or a human orphaned because of the UNSC and some kig yar or merciful Elite or Prophet could see potential in having a agent of sorts. I guess the tldr version is, lets wait and see, because I actually think this could be something cool.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not post inappropriate content.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
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Zachu511 wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white.
Accept every Halo game the show is to be based in the Universe of.
Yes, it is based on it
highlighted the important part
neither 343i nor anyone else related to the show has ever communicated that
everything ever established will be adapted one to one without any kind of minor/major changes

Jeez, the Halo community is getting more and more toxic and hypocritical
SMOK69KMK wrote:
Zachu511 wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
As far as the casting goes, it is sad to see parts of the Halo community acting this way. Nothing about the Keyes' characterization is inextricably tied to them being white.
Accept every Halo game the show is to be based in the Universe of.
Yes, it is based on it
highlighted the important part
neither 343i nor anyone else related to the show has ever communicated that
everything ever established will be adapted one to one without any kind of minor/major changes

Jeez, the Halo community is getting more and more toxic and hypocritical
This fandom isn’t toxic, don’t throw words around like that when it isn’t true.
SMOK69KMK wrote:
Yes, it is based on it
highlighted the important part
neither 343i nor anyone else related to the show has ever communicated that
everything ever established will be adapted one to one without any kind of minor/major changes
This is not a "minor change". A minor change would be this sort of "recasting" for a character like Colonel Holland, who's only seen once in a still image, and radio transmissions from thereon out. Changing major characters visually established in 16 different media installments is incredibly frivolous - I don't care who, how, or why. Halo being "based on" the games does not mean that anything and everything is subject to change this radically - and yes, this is a radical change. People's ethnicty doesn't just change like this, nor can or should established personalities and backstories be shifted as they are here.

No one is saying minority characters are bad - in fact, I've pointed out several and spoken very much for adding of new minority characters if it's really needed/desired - so please, get a grip and drop social sins at some other doorstep.
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