Forums / Community / Halo Universe

I think it’s more likely the show won’t be canon

OP TRUe REDEMPTI0N

  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 4
  4. 5
  5. ...
  6. 6
WerepyreND wrote:
Being "just as outraged" is exactly the problem because these two cases are not equivalent, one is decidedly worse than the other.
Yes, they are. You have decided that one is worse for what I can only assume are non-existent issues relative to the Halo Universe.

Quote:
Stating "representation was never an issue" doesn't inherently make it so.
You're right, simply stating something doesn't make it so. What makes it so are the many minority characters that I gave you that have been added to the Halo canon and have been major characters. Representation is not an issue.

Quote:
I've never said "ethnicity isn't important", only that it isn't necessarily a defining feature with every character.
Oh, and now it's "not with every character".... Changing a character is changing a character, and on this level it should not be done. Period.

Quote:
Playing fast-and-loose with the canon has been the default state of the franchise from day one.
No, it has not.

Quote:
First come first being the sole deciding factor for how someone or something is portrayed is one needlessly restrictive
[
This is just incredibly asinine. The Keyes have been visually portrayed in 16 individual installments. It is absolutely not as though they are one-off characters that can be recast without backlash.

Quote:
Especially when you seem perfectly willing to make exceptions everywhere else.
Please do point me to where I've been doing this. Especially since I've been quite vocal in saying that it would be just as bad to change any major character.

Quote:
It isn't hypocritical to say that Johnson is tied to his ethnicity when he was originally a reference to a specific actor's take on a specific character.
It is absolutely hypocritical, because ultimately Johnson is not that character. Johnson is Johnson. Just as Jacob Keyes and Miranda Keyes are the characters they've been portrayed as in 16 games, comics, and films. Just as you don't think who Keyes was "originally" matters, neither does Johnson's "originally" matter if we're going with this ethnic-swap-anyone-and-everyone. And if you only limit it to one ethnicity? Fun fact, that's racist.

Quote:
I also still stand by the statement that it is far more questionable to recast historically underrepresented minorities with white characters than the other way around.
Or, you know - and here's just a crazy ****in' idea - MAKE NEW CHARACTERS. LIKE THEY DID WITH LOCKE, TANAKA, PALMER, ANDERS, EMILE, KAT, IONA, AZIKIWE, etc.

Quote:
The Halo universe absolutely is large enough to accommodate everyone, but the Halo universe doesn't come fully formed out of a magical wellspring, it is made by imperfect human beings who are not always great at doing the accommodating. New characters are great, but sometimes it is just more straightforward recast a character when it is appropriate, which isn't all the time.
It has gotten a hell of a lot better, you cannot deny this. And as I've stated many many many times before (which you also cannot refute, and here even agree with) the Halo Universe is large enough. It may not have come "fully formed" or whatever nonsense you're driving at here, but as I have also stated many times, these characters have 16 CONSISTENT REPRESENTATIONS. You have conceded that there was no reason to recast them. It is not appropriate now, nor is it appropriate in the future. New Characters are not only completely possible, that should absolutely be the route to go, rather than throwing canonical consistency to the wind and pissing off a good number of people.

Quote:
Their physical appearance may be incongruous with their previous portrayals, something which has happened constantly within the Halo franchise,
Never to this degree, and you know it.
WerepyreND wrote:
Being "just as outraged" is exactly the problem because these two cases are not equivalent, one is decidedly worse than the other.
Yes, they are. You have decided that one is worse for what I can only assume are non-existent issues relative to the Halo Universe.
The Halo universe doesn't exist, the real life concerns of minority representation or lack thereof do. The idea of replacing minority characters with majority white character much worse than the alternative given that even now it can still be difficult to get minority characters past the front door, especially in bigger budget productions.
Quote:
Quote:
Stating "representation was never an issue" doesn't inherently make it so.
You're right, simply stating something doesn't make it so. What makes it so are the many minority characters that I gave you that have been added to the Halo canon and have been major characters. Representation is not an issue.
And what I've been saying is that having representation in the present doesn't inherently make up for a lack of representation in the past. Moreover representation isn't a binary state, its an ongoing process. We don't live in a bias free society and because that industry is largely still dominated by and largely caters to white males, we can't just add new minorities and call it a day claiming we have solved the issue of representation for all time.
Quote:
Quote:
I've never said "ethnicity isn't important", only that it isn't necessarily a defining feature with every character.
Oh, and now it's "not with every character".... Changing a character is changing a character, and on this level it should not be done. Period.
It was always "not with every character." I've been very upfront from the beginning of this thread that characters are defined by more than just their ethnicity, but that does not mean that ethnicity cannot be important to some characters while not being important with others.
Quote:
Quote:
Playing fast-and-loose with the canon has been the default state of the franchise from day one.
No, it has not.
Bungie did not even want the Fall of Reach to exist in the first place. Conflicting visions have been in place from the start and have manifested in many forms from Contact Harvest to Halo: Reach.
Quote:
Quote:
First come first serve being the sole deciding factor for how someone or something is portrayed is one needlessly restrictive
This is just incredibly asinine. The Keyes have been visually portrayed in 16 individual installments. It is absolutely not as though they are one-off characters that can be recast without backlash.
I mean with 16 iNdIvDuAl InStaLlMeNtS surely you can handle one outlier the same way you can deal with Halsey in 'The Package'. Just chalk it up to artistic license and.. oh wait, I forgot that seem to apply to everything but ethnicity....
Quote:
Quote:
Especially when you seem perfectly willing to make exceptions everywhere else.
Please do point me to where I've been doing this. Especially since I've been quite vocal in saying that it would be just as bad to change any major character.
*Broadly gestures at Halo* When I say everywhere, I mean everywhere. Portrayals of objects, characters(re: voice, features besides ethnicity, personalities, etc.), species, timelines. One of things that started off this nonsense was your frankly bizarre claim that up till this point Halo had "managed to keep the visual canon consistent" despite all evidence to the contrary. You can say that "well I still understand broadly what it was supposed to be" like you did with the Scarab example, but then that just leaves me with the notion that the only thing you think is distinctive about a character like Keyes who has existed in both visual and non-visual mediums is his ethnicity.

And well what can I say but yikes...
Quote:
Quote:
It isn't hypocritical to say that Johnson is tied to his ethnicity when he was originally a reference to a specific actor's take on a specific character.
It is absolutely hypocritical, because ultimately Johnson is not that character. Johnson is Johnson. Just as Jacob Keyes and Miranda Keyes are the characters they've been portrayed as in 16 games, comics, and films. Just as you don't think who Keyes was "originally" matters, neither does Johnson's "originally" matter if we're going with this ethnic-swap-anyone-and-everyone. And if you only limit it to one ethnicity? Fun fact, that's racist.
Who said anything about "ethnic-swap-anyone-and-everyone?" Thus far we have had 3 changes that haven't yet result in 343 hurriedly rewriting novels, redrawing comics, or remodeling assets so I guess you can pump the breaks on that hyperbole there friend.

Something being unequally applied does not inherently = Racist. Trying to treat everyone equally is a noble goal, but it ignores the fact that we sadly do live in a society that is full of inequality. Treating everyone "equally" on paper doesn't account for society's biases, unconscious or not and ends up favoring whoever the dominant group is(in my country's case, white and male). To use one example, Affirmative Action is "unequal" tool that is used to try to address the inequality that is present within the selection process of a given school or company. The issue of recasting Keyes vs recasting Johnson are not morally equivalent issues when you actually bother to add any context.
Quote:
Quote:
I also still stand by the statement that it is far more questionable to recast historically underrepresented minorities with white characters than the other way around.
Or, you know - and here's just a crazy ****in' idea - MAKE NEW CHARACTERS. LIKE THEY DID WITH LOCKE, TANAKA, PALMER, ANDERS, EMILE, KAT, IONA, AZIKIWE, etc.
That's great, but that accounts for potential bias with regards to older characters how? If we are not willing to examine the potential biases that went into creating old characters, the progress we do make as far as representation goes is never going to be as good as it could be.
Quote:
New Characters are not only completely possible, that should absolutely be the route to go, rather than throwing canonical consistency to the wind and pissing off a good number of people.
The "canonical consistency" you claim you want is not what makes a good narrative. Having an actor who looks more like how Keyes was portrayed in 16 iNdIvDuAl InStaLlMeNtS doesn't mean anything if they can't effectively fill the role laid out for them in this particular project. Delivering a great performance that captures who Keyes is is worth much more than if they merely capture how white he is. I really don't care if that "pisses off a good number of people" when those people seem really dis-proportionally fixated on one particular thing about a character who are not willing to lend that critical lens towards other aspects of the franchise.
Quote:
Quote:
Their physical appearance may be incongruous with their previous portrayals, something which has happened constantly within the Halo franchise,
Never to this degree, and you know it.
I guess we are going to continue sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring things like the 343 era design or messing with timeline via the animated Fall of Reach(looking at you Fred and Linda.) or any number of other things but somehow I doubt you spent days whinging about those changes. I wonder what the difference could be? It is a total mystery...
Is this going to be titled Halo: What if or Halo: Elseworlds? Because that's the only way this makes sense. I hate change for changes sake; and I feel race swapping itself is racially insensitive to the person(s) being swapped in, its like they are saying 'hey minority/interest group, we can't be bothered to make characters for you, or we don't actually think you make good characters; but we want to seem enlightened, so we'll graft your skin colour/sexuality etc. onto white/Western majority characters we can/feel comfortable writing for'. Trash. I won't part with money to see this.

I think fans outrage/dumbfoundedness is understandable especially when you consider the SCI-fi element; I've always thought fans of Sci-fi (especially things closer to the 'hard' or military sci-fi branch, a opposed to say something like Star Wars) cared more for consistency, like in actual science, hand wavy rule of cool and pandering (to people who probably aren't even interested in the property and never will be outside of that pandering piece they can get involved in online debates about) don't sit well with dedicated fans of Sci-fi properties.
WerepyreND wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
Being "just as outraged" is exactly the problem because these two cases are not equivalent, one is decidedly worse than the other.
Yes, they are. You have decided that one is worse for what I can only assume are non-existent issues relative to the Halo Universe.
The Halo universe doesn't exist, the real life concerns of minority representation or lack thereof do. The idea of replacing minority characters with majority white character much worse than the alternative given that even now it can still be difficult to get minority characters past the front door, especially in bigger budget productions.
Quote:
Quote:
Stating "representation was never an issue" doesn't inherently make it so.
You're right, simply stating something doesn't make it so. What makes it so are the many minority characters that I gave you that have been added to the Halo canon and have been major characters. Representation is not an issue.
And what I've been saying is that having representation in the present doesn't inherently make up for a lack of representation in the past. Moreover representation isn't a binary state, its an ongoing process. We don't live in a bias free society and because that industry is largely still dominated by and largely caters to white males, we can't just add new minorities and call it a day claiming we have solved the issue of representation for all time.
Quote:
Quote:
I've never said "ethnicity isn't important", only that it isn't necessarily a defining feature with every character.
Oh, and now it's "not with every character".... Changing a character is changing a character, and on this level it should not be done. Period.
It was always "not with every character." I've been very upfront from the beginning of this thread that characters are defined by more than just their ethnicity, but that does not mean that ethnicity cannot be important to some characters while not being important with others.
Quote:
Quote:
Playing fast-and-loose with the canon has been the default state of the franchise from day one.
No, it has not.
Bungie did not even want the Fall of Reach to exist in the first place. Conflicting visions have been in place from the start and have manifested in many forms from Contact Harvest to Halo: Reach.
Quote:
Quote:
First come first serve being the sole deciding factor for how someone or something is portrayed is one needlessly restrictive
This is just incredibly asinine. The Keyes have been visually portrayed in 16 individual installments. It is absolutely not as though they are one-off characters that can be recast without backlash.
I mean with 16 iNdIvDuAl InStaLlMeNtS surely you can handle one outlier the same way you can deal with Halsey in 'The Package'. Just chalk it up to artistic license and.. oh wait, I forgot that seem to apply to everything but ethnicity....
Quote:
Quote:
Especially when you seem perfectly willing to make exceptions everywhere else.
Please do point me to where I've been doing this. Especially since I've been quite vocal in saying that it would be just as bad to change any major character.
*Broadly gestures at Halo* When I say everywhere, I mean everywhere. Portrayals of objects, characters(re: voice, features besides ethnicity, personalities, etc.), species, timelines. One of things that started off this nonsense was your frankly bizarre claim that up till this point Halo had "managed to keep the visual canon consistent" despite all evidence to the contrary. You can say that "well I still understand broadly what it was supposed to be" like you did with the Scarab example, but then that just leaves me with the notion that the only thing you think is distinctive about a character like Keyes who has existed in both visual and non-visual mediums is his ethnicity.

And well what can I say but yikes...
Quote:
Quote:
It isn't hypocritical to say that Johnson is tied to his ethnicity when he was originally a reference to a specific actor's take on a specific character.
It is absolutely hypocritical, because ultimately Johnson is not that character. Johnson is Johnson. Just as Jacob Keyes and Miranda Keyes are the characters they've been portrayed as in 16 games, comics, and films. Just as you don't think who Keyes was "originally" matters, neither does Johnson's "originally" matter if we're going with this ethnic-swap-anyone-and-everyone. And if you only limit it to one ethnicity? Fun fact, that's racist.
Who said anything about "ethnic-swap-anyone-and-everyone?" Thus far we have had 3 changes that haven't yet result in 343 hurriedly rewriting novels, redrawing comics, or remodeling assets so I guess you can pump the breaks on that hyperbole there friend.

Something being unequally applied does not inherently = Racist. Trying to treat everyone equally is a noble goal, but it ignores the fact that we sadly do live in a society that is full of inequality. Treating everyone "equally" on paper doesn't account for society's biases, unconscious or not and ends up favoring whoever the dominant group is(in my country's case, white and male). To use one example, Affirmative Action is "unequal" tool that is used to try to address the inequality that is present within the selection process of a given school or company. The issue of recasting Keyes vs recasting Johnson are not morally equivalent issues when you actually bother to add any context.
Quote:
Quote:
I also still stand by the statement that it is far more questionable to recast historically underrepresented minorities with white characters than the other way around.
Or, you know - and here's just a crazy ****in' idea - MAKE NEW CHARACTERS. LIKE THEY DID WITH LOCKE, TANAKA, PALMER, ANDERS, EMILE, KAT, IONA, AZIKIWE, etc.
That's great, but that accounts for potential bias with regards to older characters how? If we are not willing to examine the potential biases that went into creating old characters, the progress we do make as far as representation goes is never going to be as good as it could be.
Quote:
New Characters are not only completely possible, that should absolutely be the route to go, rather than throwing canonical consistency to the wind and pissing off a good number of people.
The "canonical consistency" you claim you want is not what makes a good narrative. Having an actor who looks more like how Keyes was portrayed in 16 iNdIvDuAl InStaLlMeNtS doesn't mean anything if they can't effectively fill the role laid out for them in this particular project. Delivering a great performance that captures who Keyes is is worth much more than if they merely capture how white he is. I really don't care if that "pisses off a good number of people" when those people seem really dis-proportionally fixated on one particular thing about a character who are not willing to lend that critical lens towards other aspects
Ok, first of all you being an arrogant -Yoink- is not supporting your side at all (and go ahead and report thi . I know you will, and I don't give a -Yoink- but what I said will still be seen).

Second, Halo needs to follow some common sense. A person being magically a different race is going to confuse a lot of people and does not need to he applied for the sole purpose of a diversity quota that you believe should exist. That needs to be fixed aside from changing established characters.
At first I didn't care much about Keys and Miranda's ethnic change, but after thinking about it, I had a new opinion.
I understand the issue of inclusion, but why change the ethnicity of the characters we all already know in a certain way? Instead, I think they may have been thinking about characters with an equally impressive and bright background, and continuing with the theme of inclusion, you can select a Latin, oriental actor, etc. very well.
As for the plot it really seems very strange, I don't think that the Covenant had kept a human girl to raise her against humans, I'm sorry but it sounds like a story of wattpad 😅 hahaha, finally it may not sound so good but maybe, maybe just maybe, the result is better than it seems now
l Chaos I wrote:
*snip*
I'm not gonna watch this mess.
*snip*
This summarises my feelings quite well; it wouldn't surprise me if the show tanks. Some of the canon breaks also go against the core themes of the Halo franchise, with the most clear one being the human raised by the Covenant. One of the themes of Halo is the dangers of religious/ideological extremism. The Covenant were absolutely merciless in their genocidal campaign; no one was spared because humans were viewed as little more than vermin to be destroyed. Having a human be raised by the Covenant takes away from this theme and the overall feeling of terror that the Covenant instills.
JNDreher wrote:
*snip*
Why can't they just write great characters, have them be whatever demographic they like, and leave established characters alone? The Halo universe is plenty big and diverse enough to accommodate any demographic in any facet of the story. If they did that, most people would like the characters, regardless of what majority or minority demographic they were a part of.
*snip*
Because it is easier to needlessly race-swap existing characters than it is to make new and interesting ones. The worst part is that it is actually quite disrespectful when you think about it. The message from the creative team is essentially, "we can't come up with good original characters who are not white, so we'll just change the race of these existing characters."
WerepyreND wrote:
The Halo universe doesn't exist,
A flaccid wave-away. If this is the big takeaway to your argument, then likewise representation in a fictional universe matters less than one iota, and is (drumroll) a useless and pointless motion. And, similarly, replacing minority characters wouldn't matter because "the universe doesn't exist". Nice shot to your own foot.

Quote:
even now it can still be difficult to get minority characters past the front door, especially in bigger budget productions.
Except for, y'know, everyone of Fireteam Osiris being a minority representation except for Buck. And literally every other Major Character of a minority ethnicity (in terms of US demographics) that I've given you.

Quote:
And what I've been saying is that having representation in the present doesn't inherently make up for a lack of representation in the past.
Firstly, yes it does. That's literally how progress works, and despite asinine attempts to do so, we cannot change the past. Secondly, relevant to a medium like Halo, changing an established character that has remained the same into broad inclusion (ref. Halo Reach) solves absolutely nothing when the Universe allows for new characters to be added with absolutely zero penalty.

Quote:
Bungie did not even want the Fall of Reach to exist in the first place. Conflicting visions have been in place from the start and have manifested in many forms from Contact Harvest to Halo: Reach.
Already addressed above. Secondly, Fall of Reach was published - regardless of whoever thought it was a bad idea - and again, there have not been contradictions to this degree. And you very well know it.

Quote:
I mean with 16 iNdIvDuAl InStaLlMeNtS surely you can handle one outlier the same way you can deal with Halsey in 'The Package'.
And I am. You can mock the repeated reminder to you of visual consistency all you like, but it is being dealt with the same way; it should not happen, should never have happened, and is non-canonical idiocy. It is "artistic license" (despite your fervent attempts to yet again cast racist shade), yet when coupled with the other gross mishandlings of canon becomes one big bundled slap in the face. Something that you refuse to understand or acknowledge.

Quote:
*Broadly gestures at Halo* When I say everywhere, I mean everywhere. Portrayals of objects, characters(re: voice, features besides ethnicity, personalities, etc.), species, timelines.
Well, that was a big nothing. Can you be more specific? Because everything - let me make this clearer for you - HAS NOT CHANGED TO THIS LEVEL. Scorpions weren't suddenly flying, or aranged like an M1 Abrams. Warthogs never became electromagnetically propulsed. The Battle Rifle didn't become a rocket launcher. Etc, etc. You're sitting on a big fat pile of nothing here.

Quote:
One of things that started off this nonsense was your frankly bizarre claim that up till this point Halo had "managed to keep the visual canon consistent" despite all evidence to the contrary.
You've been maybe able to provide two examples of this. And yet in neither did the characters in question - Cutter and Stacker - change ethnicities, genders, etc. And beyond that, ample technical reason for those changes was given.

Quote:
Who said anything about "ethnic-swap-anyone-and-everyone?"
You did.
WerepyreND wrote:
New characters are great, but sometimes it is just more straightforward recast a character when it is appropriate, which isn't all the time.
So go on and tell us; when is the best times - in a universe that is expansive enough to fully accomodate new characters of any ethnic and cultural background - to recast an established major character? Is it when the story's already so shot-to-hell that their recasting won't matter one way or the other (and thus has no positive effect)? You've already conceded long ago that this change was pointless, so I really don't see where you can go from there. Other than just doing it to do it and rustle some jimmys. At which point it's just trolling, and not progressivism.

Quote:
That's great, but that accounts for potential bias with regards to older characters how? If we are not willing to examine the potential biases that went into creating old characters, the progress we do make as far as representation goes is never going to be as good as it could be.
I'm going to need you to back up and explain just where the bias is in Jacob and Miranda Keyes characters are that they so warranted ethnic recasting. This is just so flagrantly asinine, I really can't wait to see what you come up with for it.

Quote:
The "canonical consistency" you claim you want is not what makes a good narrative.
Yes, it is. It, in part, is absolutely what makes for a good narrative. If we cannot recognize a character - and with something as big of a change as this, it would take undue and heavy-handed exposition to explain it - then the narrative is already poor. We could have a shot of the Pillar of Autum the backdrop of Installation 04 itself. David Sapani could stride on deck in full officer's outfit and give the best, most motivating speech in the history of cinema, and people who have been familliar with Jacob Keyes as established for the past 20 years would still be confused and ask "Who's this, now?"

And yet again, I think you know this. You - and those of us here - are going in with the foreknowledge thanks to news articles. Yet you cannot rationally pose that everyone will have gotten the news. Some may be actively avoiding it to avoid any spoilers. Regardless, no performance - no matter how good - is going to properly portray the canonical state of the character when they have been altered so. And not just appearance, as has been a focal point here, but everything.

Quote:
I guess we are going to continue sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring things like the 343 era design or messing with timeline via the animated Fall of Reach(looking at you Fred and Linda.) or any number of other things but somehow I doubt you spent days whinging about those changes. I wonder what the difference could be? It is a total mystery...
Your thinly veiled attempts to oust me as a racist fall flat when I've covered those "inconsistencies", and when the visual depiction of Spartans armor has both never really had canonical depiction and has been labeled already as non-canonical visualization. Huh. Almost like theres no issue there, and you're just grasping at straws to try and justify an asinine and unnecessary change...
A flaccid wave-away. If this is the big takeaway to your argument, then likewise representation in a fictional universe matters less than one iota, and is (drumroll) a useless and pointless motion. And, similarly, replacing minority characters wouldn't matter because "the universe doesn't exist". Nice shot to your own foot.
You've impressively missed the point again. I was specifically responding to this comment "non-existent issues relative to the Halo Universe" as if the Halo universe exists outside of the real life context it was created. The point isn't that "Halo is made up so anything goes" it is that "Halo only exists in the context of the culture it was made in and that makes these social issues important." You can't make a non-political argument about a piece of art made by Humans.
Quote:
Except for, y'know, everyone of Fireteam Osiris being a minority representation except for Buck. And literally every other Major Character of a minority ethnicity (in terms of US demographics) that I've given you.
And that is great, doesn't mean that those barriers don't still exist.
Quote:
Firstly, yes it does. That's literally how progress works, and despite asinine attempts to do so, we cannot change the past. Secondly, relevant to a medium like Halo, changing an established character that has remained the same into broad inclusion (ref. Halo Reach) solves absolutely nothing when the Universe allows for new characters to be added with absolutely zero penalty.
Imbalances in the past have this nasty habit of manifesting in the future. And given the barriers I've previously mentioned, it tends to hold back said progress. When you have such a large roster of white characters from the past occupying such key areas it can be that much harder for those new characters to make any headway.

I'm glad you mention Osiris, because I personally rather like them and I'm worried they are going to get shunted to the side because their debut was hampered by Halo 5's mishandled narrative part of which is that they have to share the space with 3 other 'new' characters(to most people) who are deeply tied to the MC's character, but don't really have the screen time to flesh themselves out. Shortchanging the real main characters of the narrative and now we haven't seen a peep about them in Infinite.
Quote:
Already addressed above. Secondly, Fall of Reach was published - regardless of whoever thought it was a bad idea - and again, there have not been contradictions to this degree. And you very well know it.
Eric Nylands own blog post calls them "the powers that be" and whether you attribute that to only one person it doesn't really change the fact that Halo has never really had a unified vision.

You keep saying "and you know it" and you are right. I do know, because I remember the changes to the timeline that Halo Reach brought that 343 spent the run up to CEA
having to patch up with the data drops, I remember when they released updated versions of the Fall of Reach to rectify things like first encounters with Elites, but none of that seems to matter to you.
Quote:
And I am. You can mock the repeated reminder to you of visual consistency all you like, but it is being dealt with the same way; it should not happen, should never have happened, and is non-canonical idiocy. It is "artistic license" (despite your fervent attempts to yet again cast racist shade), yet when coupled with the other gross mishandlings of canon becomes one big bundled slap in the face. Something that you refuse to understand or acknowledge.
This is you "handling" a visual inconsistency I would hate to see you when you don't... I can't help you if you've stuck your head so far in the sand it is poking out the other side of the Earth. I'm not going to list every single instance of inconsistency within the franchise because 1.) It would take too long and 2.) You've outright ignored every example I have given you and it doesn't seem worth my time to compile a comprehensive list of canon inconsistencies when you are the one making the absurd claim that "Halo had been visually consistent up until this point" in the first place.

As for the rest of the "mishandling" I'm going to keep reminding you and everyone else that we've only heard the barest of details regarding a series that had barely started table readings. You are being "slapped in the face" with all the force of a dry tissue. Does that mean I think it is going to be good? Given the history of translating video game properties to live action I would bet on the answer to that being no, but the mere idea of it hasn't bothered me for almost two weeks like it has the rest of you.
Quote:
Well, that was a big nothing. Can you be more specific? Because everything - let me make this clearer for you - HAS NOT CHANGED TO THIS LEVEL. Scorpions weren't suddenly flying, or aranged like an M1 Abrams. Warthogs never became electromagnetically propulsed. The Battle Rifle didn't become a rocket launcher. Etc, etc. You're sitting on a big fat pile of nothing here.
If you think changing ethnicity of these certain characters in one instance of the canon is equivalent to flying Scorpions that says more about you than it does me. But hey while we are on the subject of phenotypes you must of been hopping mad when that happened the Arbiter a mere 4 years ago right. Oh who am I kidding.
Quote:
You've been maybe able to provide two examples of this. And yet in neither did the characters in question - Cutter and Stacker - change ethnicities, genders, etc. And beyond that, ample technical reason for those changes was given.
The text of your own post has me pointing out the divide of 343's Halo aesthetic as a whole and myself and others have already mentioned the numerous at the time unexplained inconsistency in the Reach timeline, the first example of gave you was an unexplained depiction of a Scarab. I personally never even mentioned Stacker so you are going to have to bring that up with hotshot
Quote:
Quote:
Who said anything about "ethnic-swap-anyone-and-everyone?"
You did.
Given I have been very clear from the beginning that I think making Johnson white would be considerably worse than making Keyes Black, it stands to reason I have not been okay with "ethnic-swapping-anyone-and-everyone" but given your history of responding to tiny fractions of my actual posts I can't say I'm surprised.
Quote:
So go on and tell us; when is the best times - in a universe that is expansive enough to fully accomodate new characters of any ethnic and cultural background - to recast an established major character? Is it when the story's already so shot-to-hell that their recasting won't matter one way or the other (and thus has no positive effect)? You've already conceded long ago that this change was pointless, so I really don't see where you can go from there. Other than just doing it to do it and rustle some jimmys. At which point it's just trolling, and not progressivism.
When they think an actor would do a good job in the part? When it isn't integral to the character and it ultimately makes little difference aside from giving ammo to the cinemasins brand of empty vapid criticism? When it is sometimes just nice to see more minority actors in an overwhelmingly white sci-fi space?

If you think those are somewhat flippant responses that is kind of the point. Because these changes to certain characters shouldn't rustle any jimmys, certainly not for almost two weeks. No one should be bothered by this unless they can't handle any deviation from initial depictions which is unrealistic for one one and hypocritical for another given the history of the franchise that you seem determined to pretend doesn't exist.
Quote:
I'm going to need you to back up and explain just where the bias is in Jacob and Miranda Keyes characters are that they so warranted ethnic recasting. This is just so flagrantly asinine, I really can't wait to see what you come up with for it.
None of us were in the room to say either way. Just like none of us were in the room for the casting of the show yet you seem perfectly willing ascribe motives to the showrunners. Given how white the sci-fi spaces tended to be, it stands to reason there wasn't as many minorities in the room as there could have been to challenge any bias at the conceptual stage, whether it was unconscious or not.

But whether or not that was the case is not the point. Only that it is rather telling yall seem perfectly willing to attribute the casting changes to political motivations while refusing to do the same with the folks that made the characters how they are in the first place.
Quote:
Yes, it is. It, in part, is absolutely what makes for a good narrative. If we cannot recognize a character - and with something as big of a change as this, it would take undue and heavy-handed exposition to explain it - then the narrative is already poor. We could have a shot of the Pillar of Autum the backdrop of Installation 04 itself. David Sapani could stride on deck in full officer's outfit and give the best, most motivating speech in the history of cinema, and people who have been familliar with Jacob Keyes as established for the past 20 years would still be confused and ask "Who's this, now?"
Casting a white actor doesn't guarantee we would recognize him either for what I would think would be fairly obvious reasons. Without actually introducing the character that has never existed in a live action medium, there is nothing specifically to set him apart from any other white officer.

Keep in mind that to a large majority of the Halo fanbase, Keyes is more or less a one off character and the even larger portion of the potential audience for a TV show like this won't recognize any of these characters outside of maybe "The Halo guy." The idea that they would jump in without properly introducing these characters is ludicrous and would be an absolute disaster if they actually tried to do that.
Quote:
And yet again, I think you know this. You - and those of us here - are going in with the foreknowledge thanks to news articles. Yet you cannot rationally pose that everyone will have gotten the news. Some may be actively avoiding it to avoid any spoilers. Regardless, no performance - no matter how good - is going to properly portray the canonical state of the character when they have been altered so. And not just appearance, as has been a focal point here, but everything.
Like I said above, they are not going to assume that an especially large portion of the audience will be able to recognize these characters from other mediums. Yes, it is true that most people will not have seen the press release, but writers don't rely on press releases to inform their audiences who any given character is supposed to be. That would be ridiculous.
Quote:
Your thinly veiled attempts to oust me as a racist fall flat when I've covered those "inconsistencies", and when the visual depiction of Spartans armor has both never really had canonical depiction and has been labeled already as non-canonical visualization. Huh. Almost like theres no issue there, and you're just grasping at straws to try and justify an asinine and unnecessary change...
I was more referring to the fact that the animated series treats Fred and Linda like they have always been part of Blue Team and are present when they destroy the Covenant ship outside of Chi-Seti among other things, but you do you.

But what really gets me here is that you can accept something being labeled as "non-canonical visualization" so then what have we been arguing about this whole time? I would object to wanting the entire series declared non-canon because of the casting change, but if we can accept than the casting is an exception to the "canonical" representation then what is the problem? This is the kind of thing that makes me leery of stated motives.
It is annoying that they brought Captain Keyes and Miranda Keyes in as African Americans though if it is not canon I could get over it. but the still should have just made new characters or if Sargent Johnson ever showed up they could have used David Sapani as him since he looks like he could be Johnson. On the issue on a human raised by the Covenant. I think that it's fine if they say like it was a project by the prophets to see if humans could be in the Covenant.
It is annoying that they brought Captain Keyes and Miranda Keyes in as African Americans though if it is not canon I could get over it. but the still should have just made new characters or if Sargent Johnson ever showed up they could have used David Sapani as him since he looks like he could be Johnson. On the issue on a human raised by the Covenant. I think that it's fine if they say like it was a project by the prophets to see if humans could be in the Covenant.
Covenant are highly religious, they will not endorse such an action that contravenes that.

As for my previous post I made on this topic I went in told others in Australia about it and they shared the same sentiments I had.
JohnDang55 wrote:
It is annoying that they brought Captain Keyes and Miranda Keyes in as African Americans though if it is not canon I could get over it. but the still should have just made new characters or if Sargent Johnson ever showed up they could have used David Sapani as him since he looks like he could be Johnson. On the issue on a human raised by the Covenant. I think that it's fine if they say like it was a project by the prophets to see if humans could be in the Covenant.
Covenant are highly religious, they will not endorse such an action that contravenes that.

As for my previous post I made on this topic I went in told others in Australia about it and they shared the same sentiments I had.
True they probably wouldn't do it but that would be the only way I think they could make it make the most sense.
WerepyreND wrote:
It's not me not liking it buddy, it's a clear violation of canon, along with Keyes likely being a captain before he was promoted in the canon. So yeah, it's becoming more and more likely and clear that this show isn't gonna be canon.
This is more than just bad plotlines or bad execution, While Jacob and Miranda aren't black they also didn't get the ranks right. Jacob isn't a captain yet...
Oh no, something was changed from The Fall of Reach. Its almost like that's happened before...... The idea that a rank discrepancy is some huge fault is some laughable, cinemasins level of shallow nitpicking. Occams razor says the reasoning behind that change is both familiarity, because the vast majority of the potential audience has never touched a Halo book and to more easily differentiate between which Keyes we are talking about at any given time.

If you are going to complain about plotlines you don't like or "canon violations" fine. Just don't act surprised when people call you out on your hypocrisy for ignoring every other instance in Halo where plotlines were bad or something "violated the canon"
But keyes and Johnson were not added" recently. They weren't added for pandering. One was White and the other was black. That being said their roles were integral and vastly different. They're race itself doesn't play the role for them but its its s a part of who they are. To change it doesn't exempt them from criticism whether they are white or black. Imagine Captain Johnson vs Sergeant keyes... The roles would be so different.
How convenient that people only just now started "pandering" with certain characters or changes... The Johnson/Keyes comparison doesn't hold water. Context matters. Saying "things would be different if things were different" isn't the strong argument you think it is. Nothing about Captain Keyes is tied to his ethnicity the same way Johnson is tied to his. And again even if it wasn't recasting minority characters is just not equivalent to recasting majority white characters.

I'm going to say this one more time for the people in the back: If the show is bad, it won't be because they "violated the canon" and it wouldn't be any better just because they called Jacob Keyes Commander instead of Captain.

None of this should give anyone any pause, thus far this is all pretty standard stuff as far as mainstream adaptations go. A bad TV show is not going to ruin Halo the video game series or the novels or the comics. Its all still going to be there when all is said and done even if the show is declared canon. If one rotten apple can spoil the bunch for you I honestly don't know how you can enjoy any large franchises at all.
These things i stated aren't going to break the show. It's just unnecessary. Johnson's character was modeled from a certain character from aliens: Sergeant Al Apone. Changing his character would change his legacy.
Your wrong about Captain Keyes. Just because Jacob being a white guy doesn't play a massive role in his character (he's not a tropey white guy). But like i said, originally Keyes was a white guy, so why change it is all I'm asking.

Im not so worried about the rank and what not, it just shows that consistency isn't priority one so people have their doubts thats all.

Also my statement about the pandering and "things being different if they were different" doesn't make to much sense to me. What I was trying to say is that what Johnson brought as a character would be different if he were the captain of the pillar of autumn. His decision making and demeanor. His approach to the ring etc. Race doesn't make him every part of who he is but its i part of him and you shouldn't take that away.

You shouldn't change a character's race and get mad when people notice. Same way if you change a characters hair type/ color for no reason. Or gender. There isn't a valid reason to make these changes. None at all. Its just unnecessary.

Lastly, I never said it would destroy Halo games. I can enjoy a franchise and be unhappy with changes and retcons. Look at starwars. I dont like the new trilogy but it doesn't stop me from liking star wars content... Please don't blow my comments out of proportion im just worried lol
  1. 1
  2. ...
  3. 4
  4. 5
  5. ...
  6. 6