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Jerome-092 vs Captain America

OP Jason S048

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ChasCT2 wrote:
What universe do you envision this fight happening in?
Which has no bearing on this fight so I’m not seeing why you’re bringing it up. Unless you think for some magically and strange reason one’s feats will suddenly not work or be nerfed if they’re not in their native universe in which case Jerome dies instantly as soon as he moves since MJOLNIR’s or his augmentation’s physics don’t exist in Marvel.

You would naturally say that is stupid yes?

That’s why we, the SB community, operate under this versus rule we have.

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Versus Rule 13: Physical laws and general reality are assumed to be contiguous and interoperable within the boundaries of common sense in a versus debate. This means that when two sides are pitted against each other, we must assume that their abilities will work as described wherever they fight in the debate, so as to not have debates devolve into mass hysterics about how one side's abilities cease to exist when they cross the threshold. This is not limited to things such as hyperspace, subspace, etc, but also to personal abilities such as ki, chakra, etc etc. If one side has a special "force", the other side is assumed to be able to interact with it to some degree, or else Vs Debates ceases to be interactive"
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since you are picking high end feats that according to Cap's bio classifications as ''only'' a peak human he shouldn't be able to do;
Which you first have to show that their definition of peak human is our own given how we have A) seen their “peak” humans dodge bullets consistently and B) shatter stone or kill lions with their bare hands in a single punch.

Are you seriously trying to argue that peak humans can do this?If I wanted to go high end Cap, I would argue he’s better than Silver Sulfer who lost to Black Panther who in turn is weaker than Cap (then again that depends on the author. :V). So FTL and planet busting level Cap for FTW!!!

Ain’t high end feats fun you see?
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I mean you mentioned Cap standing up to Namor a guy that has constantly beaten the Hulk, yet the Red Skull, Razor Fist, Black Panther, Wolverine, Crossbones, Batroc etc. are genuine challenges for Cap, does that even seem consistent?
Red Skull depends entirely on when you take it him. First body? That was peak human yes however when Cap actually did fight him to a death match it was when both were abnormally aged, trapped, and poison. His clone bodies he used after his first death? No as he was given enhancements that made him superhuman, enough that he was faster than Quicksilver in close quarters, could beat Cap in H2H (on a good day mind you), and not die from a punch from Cap, Panther, Kingpin, and Crossbones.

His cyborg body? Stronger than his enhanced clone bodies.

The same Black Panther that went toe to toe with Namor, taken down Rhinos in H2H combat, ripped a fully grown tree out of the ground and throw it, almost killed the Red Skull, lifted his throne casually that three movers had trouble lifting, and can decapitate Doom Bots with a single punch? That Black Panther?!? If you want to go truly into the crazy range of feats we can use the Black Panther that beat Silver Surfer. Planet busting light speed Black Panther huzzah!

You can see why I haven’t bought that up can’t you?

Wolverine peak human? BWHAHAH, so you think peak humans can swing a three ton object around and throw it (Dragon Man), pick up and throw six humans at once, rip open elevators and throw them, use other humans as a literal club, overpower Spider-Man, lift train cars, and knock out Grizzly Bears with a single punch?

Crossbones? Given how Crossbones doesn’t instantly lose and is hand picked by Red Skull to fight him, he’s evidently comparable to Cap. Even then, he has to use traps or numbers to try and even the fight.

Batroc? The same guy who kicks open bank vaults with three hits is peak human to you?
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It isn't. Cap will magically be as tough and as strong as he needs to be, as he is the poster boy, despite the fact that realistically someone like Namor has speed/reactions and strength so far above Cap that Cap would literally be dead in seconds of attempting to fight someone like Namor.
Your personal ideas has no input on canon feats and the fact that the guide books have repeatedly proven themselves incorrect and contradicts themselves which is why no one takes them seriously.

As evident by it saying Thor and Hulk can only lift 100 tons (are you going to argue that a serpent this big is only 100 tons?), Doctor Doom being peak human despite being able to kill a lion in a single hit butt naked, Spider-Man is peak human despite being able to lift trains and dodge bullets, or all of Cap’s feats? Hell even the MCU said Cap was peak human yet he does this, something physically impossible by our peak humans standards.

For an idea of how bad the guidebooks are in terms of stating the stats of characters. Let’s look at Thor first. It gives him a strength ranking of 100, or lifting 100 tons. Yet he can shatter planets, overpower Hulk, and is stronger than the Midgard Serpent (who is larger enough to warp itself around Earth several times). Does that in any way make sense that he can only lift 100 tons max?

Or Hulk who can lift a star (aka sun), shatter a planet by stomping on it, or clapping and wiping out a city?

Or Thanos who can only lift 10 tons (this did get later retconned but the point stands) and yet back handed someone across our solar system?

But wait there's more!That same guide book says Cap is only peak human and Super Skrull can lift over 75 tons but no more than 100. And yet Captain America can overpower them in physical strength...

Are you seeing a pattern?

So what are the options here to reconcile this? They are ether dismiss the guidebooks entirely with said guidebooks getting changed every single time they get released, dismiss the decades of consistent feats (consistent as in they bend over the guidebooks and tell them to go -Yoink- themselves) that are impossible to reconcile with said guidebooks, assume their definition of peak human isn’t what our definition is, or accept that the guidebooks were retconned into oblivion. Wouldn’t be the first time Marvel has done retcons with two key examples being the Doctor Strange and Beyonder retcons.

What do you think makes the most sense?

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Put Jerome in the MU and make him subject to their crazy physics and he is outclassing Cap.
That’s not how debating works, at all. We take the feats the characters have shown to be able to do and compared them to the feats of other characters. You don’t make up feats out of thin air just because you like it or else debates will never get anywhere.

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There is precedent for it, I believe, if we consider the case of Angela. Originally from Spawn, strong, fast, a degree of invulnerability but from within that (Spawn/Image) universe nowhere near the level of Thor/Bor/Hela in the slightest. However now she has been transported into the MU she is able to fight and win against that level of character, characters that through strength of arms can destroy planets, are resistant enough to walk in the sun, have magics potent enough that they can manipulate time/space/matter on many planes of existence etc.
I assume you are referring to one of the many non canon crossovers? If so, all the Marvel crossovers with other universes are non canon with one exception, the Godzilla crossover as it got later reference in the monster war comic.
Cap isn't going to be able to keep up with Jerome's reflexes (close combat or shooting)

I haven't read the newer wave of Halo books, maybe you/others have and you can show were a human has outclassed an SII in which case Cap has a decent chance.
When Jerome can actually dodge bullets and isn’t threaten by the Covevant’s sub sonic plasma projectiles, you can make that statement. Until then Halo canon and Marvel canon laugh at that notion.
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Cap isn't going to outsmart him.
Has no relevance in a brawl so I don't see why you are trying to bring this up.
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I haven't read the newer wave of Halo books, maybe you/others have and you can show were a human has outclassed an SII in which case Cap has a decent chance.
Spartans can lift three times their body weight without armor as stated in TFoR chapter 8,
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“Your Spartans can run at bursts of up to fifty-five KPH,” he explained. “Kelly can run a little faster, I think. They will only get quicker as they adjust to the ‘alterations’ we’ve made to their bodies. They can lift three times their body weight—which, I might add, is almost double the norm due to their increased muscle density. And they can virtually see in the dark.”
The armor Jerome has here only doubles his strength as stated in chapter 13 from the same book,
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“Most importantly,” Dr. Halsey said, “the armor’s inner structure is composed of a new reactive metal liquid crystal. It is amorphous, yet fractally scales and amplifies force. In simplified terms, the armor doubles the wearer’s strength, and enhances the reaction speed of a normal human by a factor of five.”
How much does Jerome weigh without armor?
According to this site’s entry it’s 290 lbs.
290 * 3 = 870 lbs for strength without armor.
This is less than peak humans today in terms of lifting strength.
870 * 2 = 1740 lbs with armor.
Which is less than Wolverine who can hold an elevator (minimal of 1200 kgs or 2645.5 lbs) with people in it, throwing Great White Sharks out of the water (which weigh between 1500 to 2400 lbs), throwing a dumpster with one arm (an empty dumpster weighs between 3750 lbs to 6500 lbs and the one he threw was filled with garbage so above that), or throwing Dragon Man who weighs 6000 lbs. And Wolverine has less impressive strength feats than Cap or Panther.

EvilKeny28 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
No normal human can defeat an unarmoured Spartan 2 in a physical fight. Its impossible.
A normal human wouldn't be even able to beat an unarmoured Spartan 4 and the difference between the 2s and 4s is: an Olympic level athlete and a near supernatural monster.

While that would be correct since Spartan IIs don't specialize in one particular trait (strength, speed, etc), many don't actually go above peak human stats compared to modern day humans. Which makes since they try to balance their mixed traits compared to the giants we have today like Hafpor Bjornsson and are generally described as lean without their armor. Though in the case of the Spartan IV, it really depends on which one being talked about since some, Scruggs to name one, have been defeated by a regular human marine in combat.

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Anyways, I think that people are getting carried away in this debate. There is was too many calculation flying around which are always dubious at best.
Based on feats I would say Captain America is at the very least close to a Spartan 2 physically.
Don't like calculations? Then don't debate since debates require calculations.

What feats do a Spartan have to come close to 616 Cap feats? The only one that comes to mind is when Frankie said Spartans can flip tanks during his commentary on the Babysitter story in Halo Legends, which is dubious at best since we don't know the terrain, tank in question, the conditions of the tank, etc. Even then it makes no sense in universe because you then have to reconcile it why an old lady can take a punch to the face from a blood lusted Spartan, Elites (who are really light for their size) don't get punted into orbit whenever they get into a melee fight with a Spartan, or why Spartans can be restrained by regular humans. Or why regular humans can not get instantly munched by Brutes in close quarters since Brutes are as stronger or stronger than a Spartan (depending on the brute in question).
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What makes this so difficult to confirm is that we don't have any feats for fully grown Spartan 2s out of armour. The only unarmoured feats we have are when the Spartans are 14 years old. Jerome is 20 years old, so it's only logical to assume he more physically capable than he was at 14.
While the matter of strength and speed is difficult to define between the two. I think its almost safe to say that Jerome is more durable (due to the bone augmentation) and has faster reflexes (Spartan Time).
At least for speed sure but how much faster? Evidently not enough since Chief can't dodge projectiles moving somewhat faster than a baseball as an adult (neelder rounds). Strength we already know thanks to The Falls of Reach and the stats the adult Spartans have outside of armor found on this site, just multiple by 3 for their lifting strength.
ChasCT2 wrote:
I thought we were talking about his physical armor not his day one release edition shields. And yeah my next point prives why he thought they werent an IMMEDIATE danger. Heck even cap thinks of soldiers with a 9mm as a non IMMEDIATE danger.
That is the only time in the book that it is stated to be hit by MA5 fire so it was relevant to the point and proves that there is no evidence that MJORNIR is immune to 7.62mm.

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That's it your reddit kinda special ain't cha?
It’s amuses me that you actually think I even reside on Reddit, at all. While I admit that I had an account on Reddit about a decade ago, I can’t even remember what the username is now (or even if it still exists) nor I have really logged into it since I joined SB about five years ago. Best decision ever.

Outside of the occasional Warsies, Trekker, or Haloite wank the versus forums are fine IMO.
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All armor has a weak point usually in the joints to allow for movement where instead of armor that usually put some kind of reenforced cloth. In the medieval period they used either boiled leather or chain main.
While I'm not disagreeing with your point there, do you think it's dumb to assume the smartest woman and multiple AIs would shoot the armor with something that would penetrate it when the wearer has no idea what it can take and then risk sending it out into space immediately afterwards?
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In halo im not sure what they use, however any cloth is only gonna be bullet resistant not immune like the actual plating.
I’m pretty sure they use the same black suits they wore before they got MJOLNIR as under armor. Alas that can’t stop a single 5mm round from penetrating it. One thing that annoys me is how the MJOLNIR armor has continued to have less and less armor plates on it throughout its newer versions. I mean seriously, compared Jerome’s current armor to say Vale’s armor.

Once those shields break that isn't going to protect you much. And trying to argue for extra mobility doesn't work either since Red Team got access to the Spartan Abilities introduced in Halo 5.
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Huh. Didnt know that wasnt cannon thanks for letting me know!
Yeah, it’s from the email replies Frankie did several years ago (there’s a link on Halopedia to the achieve) and IIRC the director commentary of Halo Legends as well. Though I at the time didn’t take the commentary at face value because of what else Frankie was saying towards it.
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... You do know that reaction speed isnt how fast you notice something its how fast you REACT to it. If your physically slow than your reaction speed suffers immensely bud
Which contradicts nothing what I said and only enforces that Cap is going to be able to speed blitz Jerome. Well at least the mid end comic one. MCU Cap is slower than Jerome in the reaction department so Jerome would win there as Cap doesn't have the speed to deal with Jerome's bullets.
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And where are your facts? I would like to see the stats marvel published for him on terms of strength...lets see.... Oh wow only 1100 max bench??? Thats sad a spartan can do more than that. Please try again.
Meanwhile every single strength feat he has proves the guidebook stat is wrong. Though if you really want to play it this way, Spartans are threaten by a gun that is canonically unable to penetrate real life flesh because of how weak it is (the Bungie stats Brute Spiker because of 343i’s blatant refusal to fix them.)
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If cap dodges bullets why was he hit by a sniper.
Such as? I assume it's from either one of his Crossbones fights or when he was taking on the Nazy super soldier army (that had the same augmentations he did) all by himself.
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And why would he ever have to block them?
Because he’s not bullet proof and sometimes using your shield to block for people who can’t dodge is a good idea?

Who would have thought.
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I also thought we decided who was faster about a year ago. Go check out page 3 bud lol also dont forget iron man was able to hit cap and he doesnt move super sonic.
You mean the same guy who can go to Mach 3 in H2H combat thanks to his suit such as his fight against Graviton? That Iron Man?

Sheesh you act as getting hit by something massively faster than any RL bullets is bad.
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Ill give you that being bigger makes you a bigger target, however the spartans are indeed faster than cap. Ues they et subsonic rounds hit them, however in battle while you are being fired on from all sides you pick your poison. Its called picking the lesser evil.
Which if Spartans were bullet timers to UNSC bullets, then why are they hit the vast majority of the time by Covenant weapons 10 times slower than the bullets? Why are they hit by them when they are not surrounded and are only facing a few?
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Go read cole protocol and ghosts of onyx... And just about any other halo book... The spartans devise their strategies independant of outside forces, they are also sent in behind enemy lines as well and expected to survive and complete their mission (like i dunno THE COLE PROTOCOL)
When they can remember every single tactic done in history in perfect detail because they were shown it by being reached or seeing it in battle, you can start comparing them to Cap. Or leading intergalactic armies by themselves like Cap did when Krovac reset reality every time he lost (retaining all the knowledge he gained during that life) until he won (about 130 total years of combat experience).
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Please tell me in which universe does cap have more combat experience? The spartans were kidnapped at age 6 and then put through a rigorous training regimen till they were augmented after which they began a even more rigorous training regimen and began combat against the covenant, which they have fought nearly every day of their life. The life of a spartan ad noted in "halo: the fall of reach" is one of constant combat and training.im fairly sure the guys who have been in the military since they were 6 have a bit more experience compared to the guy who joined the military in ww2 and was then useless untill the augmentations... And then he was sidelined as a stage prop and only had "maybe" a year of combat before he was frozen... How could he have more experience now???
By fighting longer than Lord Hood has been alive?
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i assumed they were fighting in a universe with 'realistic' physics my aplogies i didnt realize they were fighting in dream land of thats the case then how about we give jerome the random stat boosts that cap seems to gain through out the comics shall we? Because remember his official stats as released by marvel all say that most of the crap he does should kill him.
You don’t like how the comics portray characters? Then don’t debate it, problem solved. I don’t see why you’re getting mad that the official feats of comic Marvel troupe anything Jerome can bring to beat.
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Not to mention that if cap gets an infinity ring jerome gets a halo ring he can fire with the push if a button, this still has to be a fair fight one side cant have a wmd without the other side having one too.
You mean Infinity Stone or Gauntlet there? Since there isn’t an Infinity Ring in Marvel unless the Infinity War part 1 movie coming out later this year makes one. Though if we gave them their most powerful WMD, Cap erases the entire Halo multiverse before the Halo Ring can even charge. Because Marvel super weapons are that high up with you having to go straight into Doctor Who tier and above level stuff to come close to.
ChasCT2 wrote:
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I give ya that. Its desige is horrid. It can, however go over rougher terrain though. Also dont forget that less amount of manpower which means that more can be fielded.
Which is debatable depending on the terrain, suspension, etc. Even then, it doesn't justify the extra size, maintenance, and more exploitable weakpoints. There's a reason afterall why no successful modern tank uses four treads and instead opts for two. Having one person pilot a tank by themselves is a terrible idea because it causes information overload, not to mention makes trying to repair it impossible in a combat situation without outside help.

Why?

Because no one can operate it to keep the repairmen from getting shot since the only person in it is trying to fix the tread that got crippled, repair the engine, etc.
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Listen. Halo is a game based universe meanong that for what the scorpion was originally intended for it fit perfectly! You see having near 6 people operate a tabk making things odd for a player. And no they cant just redesign them unless they want to get in trouble woth their fan base for being "not constant" so the scorpion wont change untill the introduce a new iteration for it.
That's fine and all but when you have to compare it to other tanks in a debate, the glaring flaws become points of contention. But from a gameplay perspective it's perfectly fine since Bungie designed it to look cool, not practical.
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Why thank you i try to please! Now please go back home to 4chan or reddit or whatever feces infested hell hole you came from. As i stated we dont need "reddit special" here bud.
You amuse me, please continue doing so.
I'm just saying this real quickly........ bye bye Captain America!
EvilKeny28 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
I haven't read the newer wave of Halo books, maybe you/others have and you can show were a human has outclassed an SII in which case Cap has a decent chance.
No normal human can defeat an unarmoured Spartan 2 in a physical fight. Its impossible.
A normal human wouldn't be even able to beat an unarmoured Spartan 4 and the difference between the 2s and 4s is: an Olympic level athlete and a near supernatural monster.

That's my point. Cap, when written to his level, has a load of Human villains capable of contending with him, the super-Human stuff is poor writing for Cap's stats.

Even your average Grunt outclasses your average Human in strength; Elites/Brutes vastly outclass Humans in terms of strength and reflexes, these are an SII's bread and butter. Jerome would muller Cap
Precisely if cap didnt get random stat boosts every other second he would be nothing for jerome.
Like I stated before the reason this debate is taking so long is due to fact that we have no feats of an adult Spartan 2 out of armour.
The closest we have is training scene of 14 year old Spartan 2s after their augmentations.
At that age they are already able to kick a human in Mark 1 exoskeleton 8 meters away, and fast enough that a gun's tracking system can't keep up with them. As Jerome is 20 years old he is most likely even better now.
MCU is very capable, but I don't think he is better than a Spartan 2.
ChasCT2 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
No normal human can defeat an unarmoured Spartan 2 in a physical fight. Its impossible.
A normal human wouldn't be even able to beat an unarmoured Spartan 4 and the difference between the 2s and 4s is: an Olympic level athlete and a near supernatural monster.

While that would be correct since Spartan IIs don't specialize in one particular trait (strength, speed, etc), many don't actually go above peak human stats compared to modern day humans. Which makes since they try to balance their mixed traits compared to the giants we have today like Hafpor Bjornsson and are generally described as lean without their armor. Though in the case of the Spartan IV, it really depends on which one being talked about since some, Scruggs to name one, have been defeated by a regular human marine in combat.

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Anyways, I think that people are getting carried away in this debate. There is was too many calculation flying around which are always dubious at best.
Based on feats I would say Captain America is at the very least close to a Spartan 2 physically.
Don't like calculations? Then don't debate since debates require calculations.

What feats do a Spartan have to come close to 616 Cap feats? The only one that comes to mind is when Frankie said Spartans can flip tanks during his commentary on the Babysitter story in Halo Legends, which is dubious at best since we don't know the terrain, tank in question, the conditions of the tank, etc. Even then it makes no sense in universe because you then have to reconcile it why an old lady can take a punch to the face from a blood lusted Spartan, Elites (who are really light for their size) don't get punted into orbit whenever they get into a melee fight with a Spartan, or why Spartans can be restrained by regular humans. Or why regular humans can not get instantly munched by Brutes in close quarters since Brutes are as stronger or stronger than a Spartan (depending on the brute in question).
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What makes this so difficult to confirm is that we don't have any feats for fully grown Spartan 2s out of armour. The only unarmoured feats we have are when the Spartans are 14 years old. Jerome is 20 years old, so it's only logical to assume he more physically capable than he was at 14.
While the matter of strength and speed is difficult to define between the two. I think its almost safe to say that Jerome is more durable (due to the bone augmentation) and has faster reflexes (Spartan Time).
At least for speed sure but how much faster? Evidently not enough since Chief can't dodge projectiles moving somewhat faster than a baseball as an adult (neelder rounds). Strength we already know thanks to The Falls of Reach and the stats the adult Spartans have outside of armor found on this site, just multiple by 3 for their lifting strength.
I want to make one thing clear. I am not using comic Captain America, only MCU one. I refuse to use the comic version due to it being unfair and not consistant.

"Though in the case of the Spartan IV, it really depends on which one being talked about since some, Scruggs to name one, have been defeated by a regular human marine in
combat."
Which also happens to be the only instance we see this happen. In Halo New Blood, Dare punches Buck in the abdomen and hurts her hand doing so while Buck barely feels a thing.
No human can beat a Spartan 2. Not when they are capable of kicking someone in Mark 1 armour 8 metres away at age 14, and accidentally kill ODSTs in a brawl.

"Don't like calculations? Then don't debate since debates require calculations."
Not always. Calculations are often littered with errors and are rarely reliable. Fans either take too many or too few factors into consideration when making their calculations which leads to frequent variances between individuals. But the most problematic thing is the lack of perspective. The fact that people think that all writers and animators are thinking about all these things and don't make errors is ludicrous. Novelists are not scientists, hell a lot of science in Halo is hand waved and many things when calculated don't make sense. That's because they are trying to apply real word calculations to a fictional setting though up by people who don't dabble to deeply in hard sciences. It ultimately becomes a 'my numbers are bigger than yours' sort of thing. This is why I prefer taking an overall view of things and only using feats without having to resort to calculations.
So ultimately I don't use, nor pay much attention to fan made calculations are they are often false, skewered, or conflict with what is established in terms of lore or feats. I have seen far too many debates where fans ignore lore, feats or even what the author is trying to convey in place of their own calculations and will fiercely defend them despite the flaw in doing so.

"What feats do a Spartan have to come close to 616 Cap feats?"
Out of armour, I've already stated that its not easy to say. However the feats that they demonstrate at age 14 are definitely at Captain's level. At age 20, Jerome would be even stronger.

"The only one that comes to mind is when Frankie said Spartans can flip tanks during his commentary on the Babysitter story in Halo Legends, which is dubious at best since we don't know the terrain, tank in question, the conditions of the tank, etc."
I would assume he means normal conditions since he didn't specify. Which means Scorpion tank on flat ground.

"Even then it makes no sense in universe because you then have to reconcile it why an old lady can take a punch to the face from a blood lusted Spartan, Elites (who are really light for their size) don't get punted into orbit whenever they get into a melee fight with a Spartan."
Most of this is inconsistencies and cases of writers not paying attention to details. As for Lucy, she wasn't blood lusted, she was just angry. I got no answer for the Elites, it just weird -Yoink- that we have to deal with.

"Spartans can be restrained by regular humans."
This never happens. Which is why I said normal humans can't beat Spartans.

"Or why regular humans can not get instantly munched by Brutes in close quarters"
They pretty much do. I have never seen a Human beat a brute in cqc.

"At least for speed sure but how much faster? Evidently not enough since Chief can't dodge projectiles moving somewhat faster than a baseball as an adult (neelder rounds). Strength we already know thanks to The Falls of Reach and the stats the adult Spartans have outside of armor found on this site, just multiple by 3 for their lifting strength."
I don't know how much faster. I mostly meant in terms of reflexes, not necessarily in terms of run speed.
MCU Rogers doesn't dodge bullets either.
As for your strength stat, its not correct. That was their strength at 14 years old. Not at 20 years old. We don't know how strong adult Spartans are as we don't have any feats.
The problem is you are using the stats Spartans had at 14 to measure their full strength at 20. That is not accurate.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
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I want to make one thing clear. I am not using comic Captain America, only MCU one. I refuse to use the comic version due to it being unfair and not consistant.

Fair enough. :)
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Out of armour, I've already stated that its not easy to say. However the feats that they demonstrate at age 14 are definitely at Captain's level. At age 20, Jerome would be even stronger.
I assume based on your earlier statement you’re arguing for MCU Cap here now correct? Though if it’s in regards to 616 Cap, please post feats because Spartan Adriana injured her herself using a mongoose as a melee weapon while Wolverine can uss a person nearly eight times heavier as a melee weapon (Dragon Man) and be ok.
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I would assume he means normal conditions since he didn't specify. Which means Scorpion tank on flat ground.
Which you can’t prove so the statement is worthless as it’s unquantifiable.
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Most of this is inconsistencies and cases of writers not paying attention to details. As for Lucy, she wasn't blood lusted, she was just angry. I got no answer for the Elites, it just weird -Yoink- that we have to deal with.
The same can apply for the Jackals Spartan IVs have gotten into H2H combat with (Escalation) as Spartans IVs are supposed to be on par with a II in stats with their armor, Grunts, Rebels, etc.

If a Spartan can lift a tank, then how can they hurt themselves lifting something that at a minimal is 23 times lighter than the world’s lightest tank?

How can you explain why the UNSC’s regular troops like Marines and ODSTs are not punted across the landscape by Brutes whenever they get hit by them? Because remember, Brutes are as strong as a Spartan if not stronger...

Fact is the feat is unusable because we have no details about it and to even assume the details of the situation like that creates too many issues that break the setting and destroys several plot related points in the books.
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This never happens. Which is why I said normal humans can't beat Spartans.
False, Maria-062 was taken out and restrained by ODSTs in H2H combat while testing MJOLNIR Mark VI in the Halo: Graphic Novel.

Which said armor set increases a Spartan strength by a multiple of 5 instead of 2 of the older sets.
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They pretty much do. I have never seen a Human beat a brute in cqc.
Poor wording on my half, let me reword it to emphasize how world breaking the tank lifting Brutes are. If Brutes could lift tanks, explain why Buck and his squad survived their encounter with a Chieftain in ODST? If Brutes could lift tanks and his squad could not, they would physically be unable to even restrain it much less take any of the blows or dealt them without instanting having their bodies have every bone in them shatter.

That’s not even getting into the fact why a Warthog weighing several times less than the world’s lightest tank was able to pin a Chieftain in Contact Harvest.
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I don't know how much faster. I mostly meant in terms of reflexes, not necessarily in terms of run speed.
MCU Rogers doesn't dodge bullets either.
As for your strength stat, its not correct. That was their strength at 14 years old. Not at 20 years old. We don't know how strong adult Spartans are as we don't have any feats.
The problem is you are using the stats Spartans had at 14 to measure their full strength at 20. That is not accurate.
Actually it is. The first ever released stats we had for Jerome put him at 290 lbs as of Halo Wars 1, per this site by 343i. The Halo 4 guidebook put Chief at 286.6 lbs as of Halo 4. Alice and Douglas? 282 lbs and 302 lbs respectively as of Halo Wars 1. With Red team going straight into cryo after Halo Wars 1 and not even a year has past since Halo Wars 2 for them, there’s no way the Spartans put on enough weight to actually make a difference if they did put any weight on.
ChasCT2 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
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I want to make one thing clear. I am not using comic Captain America, only MCU one. I refuse to use the comic version due to it being unfair and not consistant.

Fair enough. :)
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Out of armour, I've already stated that its not easy to say. However the feats that they demonstrate at age 14 are definitely at Captain's level. At age 20, Jerome would be even stronger.
I assume based on your earlier statement you’re arguing for MCU Cap here now correct? Though if it’s in regards to 616 Cap, please post feats because Spartan Adriana injured her herself using a mongoose as a melee weapon while Wolverine can uss a person nearly eight times heavier as a melee weapon (Dragon Man) and be ok.
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I would assume he means normal conditions since he didn't specify. Which means Scorpion tank on flat ground.
Which you can’t prove so the statement is worthless as it’s unquantifiable.
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Most of this is inconsistencies and cases of writers not paying attention to details. As for Lucy, she wasn't blood lusted, she was just angry. I got no answer for the Elites, it just weird -Yoink- that we have to deal with.
The same can apply for the Jackals Spartan IVs have gotten into H2H combat with (Escalation) as Spartans IVs are supposed to be on par with a II in stats with their armor, Grunts, Rebels, etc.

If a Spartan can lift a tank, then how can they hurt themselves lifting something that at a minimal is 23 times lighter than the world’s lightest tank?

How can you explain why the UNSC’s regular troops like Marines and ODSTs are not punted across the landscape by Brutes whenever they get hit by them? Because remember, Brutes are as strong as a Spartan if not stronger...

Fact is the feat is unusable because we have no details about it and to even assume the details of the situation like that creates too many issues that break the setting and destroys several plot related points in the books.
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This never happens. Which is why I said normal humans can't beat Spartans.
False, Maria-062 was taken out and restrained by ODSTs in H2H combat while testing MJOLNIR Mark VI in the Halo: Graphic Novel.

Which said armor set increases a Spartan strength by a multiple of 5 instead of 2 of the older sets.
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They pretty much do. I have never seen a Human beat a brute in cqc.
Poor wording on my half, let me reword it to emphasize how world breaking the tank lifting Brutes are. If Brutes could lift tanks, explain why Buck and his squad survived their encounter with a Chieftain in ODST? If Brutes could lift tanks and his squad could not, they would physically be unable to even restrain it much less take any of the blows or dealt them without instanting having their bodies have every bone in them shatter.

That’s not even getting into the fact why a Warthog weighing several times less than the world’s lightest tank was able to pin a Chieftain in Contact Harvest.
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I don't know how much faster. I mostly meant in terms of reflexes, not necessarily in terms of run speed.
MCU Rogers doesn't dodge bullets either.
As for your strength stat, its not correct. That was their strength at 14 years old. Not at 20 years old. We don't know how strong adult Spartans are as we don't have any feats.
The problem is you are using the stats Spartans had at 14 to measure their full strength at 20. That is not accurate.
Actually it is. The first ever released stats we had for Jerome put him at 290 lbs as of Halo Wars 1, per this site by 343i. The Halo 4 guidebook put Chief at 286.6 lbs as of Halo 4. Alice and Douglas? 282 lbs and 302 lbs respectively as of Halo Wars 1. With Red team going straight into cryo after Halo Wars 1 and not even a year has past since Halo Wars 2 for them, there’s no way the Spartans put on enough weight to actually make a difference if they did put any weight on.
"Though if it’s in regards to 616 Cap"
No, I say again I will only compare Jerome to MCU Rogers.

"Adriana injured her herself using a mongoose"
Adrianna also kicks an Elite 50 meters across the hall. The novels has their own inconsistencies, Spartans should have no problem using a Mongoose as a weapon considering their capabilities.

"Which you can’t prove so the statement is worthless as it’s unquantifiable"
While the exact conditions are unquantifiable, the statement itself is not. Spartans in armour are capable of flipping tanks, but its probably very difficult for them.

"The same can apply for the Jackals Spartan IVs have gotten into H2H combat with (Escalation) as Spartans IVs are supposed to be on par with a II in stats with their armor, Grunts, Rebels, etc"
If you are referring to the Thorn moment, that was a lucky shot. Also its important to remember than Spartan 4 are not as experienced as Spartan 2s. Thorne is very green as far as Spartans are concerned. Also he has other feats such as beating 5 elites with energy swords in cqc while unarmed.

"How can you explain why the UNSC’s regular troops like Marines and ODSTs are not punted across the landscape by Brutes whenever they get hit by them? "
They generally are, we just rarely see it. Some Halo books do show this though, such as Halo Envoy.

"Fact is the feat is unusable because we have no details about it "
Perhaps not, but WOG says it can happen.

"False, Maria-062 was taken out and restrained by ODSTs in H2H combat while testing MJOLNIR Mark VI in the Halo: Graphic Novel"
Ok, I honestly was not aware this happened. But this is definitely an inconsistency, as Spartan 2 in Mark 6 should be able to get out of that situation. Perhaps she didn't give it her all since it was a testing scenario.

"If Brutes could lift tanks, explain why Buck and his squad survived their encounter with a Chieftain in ODST?"
The brute was an idiot. He chose to focuse on one wounded ODST which gave Buck the opportunity to give the Brute a lethal wound. Distracted by Buck and its injury, 2 more ODSTs were able to knock it down due it being unsteady and dying.

"If Brutes could lift tanks"
I am not saying Spartans can lift Tanks without a sweat. Its probably their peak strength feat, they can't just do it nilly-willy.
I'd like to add that now with Gen 2, Spartans can break through solide rock, flip wraiths with a ground pound, move fast enough to pry an Elite from his ghost etc....flipping a tank doesn't seem to impossible now.

"That’s not even getting into the fact why a Warthog weighing several times less than the world’s lightest tank was able to pin a Chieftain in Contact Harvest"
I don't have the book so I don't know the exact context of the scenario. Did the Warthog have people on it? Was the Chieftain on his back?

"Actually it is. "
Yeah, at age 14. Not age 20. There is a world of difference between a 14 year old and 20 year old. Mendez even says they would get stronger.
We don't know how strong an adult Spartan is, we only know how strong they were at 14. The formula used for their strength at 14 may not apply for them at 20.
ChasCT2 wrote:
Which has no bearing on this fight so I’m not seeing why you’re bringing it up. Unless you think for some magically and strange reason one’s feats will suddenly not work or be nerfed if they’re not in their native universe in which case Jerome dies instantly as soon as he moves since MJOLNIR’s or his augmentation’s physics don’t exist in Marvel.
You would naturally say that is stupid yes? No, been in plenty of debates that quibble as to whether the Force, Speed Force works outside their universes or if Galactus is fully fed, how powerful Dormammu, Odin, Mephisto etc. are outside their realms, these things have a bearing.That’s why we, the SB community, operate under this versus rule we have. This.Is.HaloWaypoint!!!!! (kicks SB into the abyss)...with that said then, Jerome wins. In his universe if a Spartan punches an unarmoured opponent their hands have a tendency to go right through them, since, according to SB and you his powers work as is, he wins - pushes his hand through Caps face with his faster reaction time and superhuman strength.
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Versus Rule 13: Physical laws and general reality are assumed to be contiguous and interoperable within the boundaries of common sense in a versus debate. This means that when two sides are pitted against each other, we must assume that their abilities will work as described wherever they fight in the debate, so as to not have debates devolve into mass hysterics about how one side's abilities cease to exist when they cross the threshold. This is not limited to things such as hyperspace, subspace, etc, but also to personal abilities such as ki, chakra, etc etc. If one side has a special "force", the other side is assumed to be able to interact with it to some degree, or else Vs Debates ceases to be interactive"
Ain’t high end feats fun you see? No they are dumb, they are the reason I hate most street levellers, because writers are idiots and put them up against people that can kill them with a blink of their eye. it just ruins the integrity.Red Skull depends entirely on when you take it him. First body? Obviously meant his normal body - again though if Cap is standing up to a super enhanced body when they were fighting as equals before - inconsistent. Planet busting light speed Black Panther huzzah! You can see why I haven’t bought that up can’t you? Yeah see, inconsistent. SS is insanely powerful (also BP had the McGuffin of magic frogs from that he pulled out his -Yoink-) someone on BP's level physically overpowering him is absolutely redundant.Wolverine peak human? BWHAHAH, Sorry didn't mean to put my man as peak Human, he is super but minorly so, he has lost to Humans himself and he isn't Namor/Hulk/Thor in terms of strength/invulnerability, hence why I put him there.Crossbones? Given how Crossbones doesn’t instantly lose and is hand picked by Red Skull to fight him, he’s evidently comparable to Cap. Even then, he has to use traps or numbers to try and even the fight. Right, he doesn't instantly lose to Cap, they are comparable, that's my point. How can this guy be a challenge for over a second when you happily put Cap on a level with Namor, a guy who can fight the Sentry, it makes zero sense - it makes as much sense as Thor being equal in a fight with Juggernaut but then being equal in a fight with the Kingpin - its a blatant inconsistency.Batroc? The same guy who kicks open bank vaults with three hits is peak human to you? LOL Gwenpool? Really? A fourth Wall breaking comedy comic is what you use as evidence? Ignored.Or Hulk who can lift a star (aka sun), shatter a planet by stomping on it, or clapping and wiping out a city? Hmm I believe the scale only goes to 100+ therefore if you are in that class it simply means you lift more than that not that it is your upper limit.But wait there's more!That same guide book says Cap is only peak human and Super Skrull can lift over 75 tons but no more than 100. And yet Captain America can overpower them in physical strength... Comic writer not knowing is subject matter - Super Skrull would murder Cap, consider how it is people nowhere near that class like Razorfist have given Cap trouble, does it make one lick of sense he can hen take n a guy that can fight the Thing equally and blast hot like a sun?Are you seeing a pattern?
What do you think makes the most sense? if the sourcebooks don't change much year in year out but Caps abilities vastly fluctuate year in year out...hmmm I think I can see which one is flawed.
ChasCT2 wrote:
That’s not how debating works, at all. We take the feats the characters have shown to be able to do and compared them to the feats of other characters. You don’t make up feats out of thin air just because you like it or else debates will never get anywhere. If people agree to it they can work that way. Another thing that DOES happen in these types of debates is analysing feats and seeing if they are contrived for plot convenience or the rule of cool - Cap has a LOT of that.
ChasCT2 wrote:
I assume you are referring to one of the many non canon crossovers? If so, all the Marvel crossovers with other universes are non canon with one exception, the Godzilla crossover as it got later reference in the monster war comic. No, I'm referring to a canon thing in which Angela from Spawn is now in the MCU as a permanent character (they even added a 10th realm to the Asgardian mythos to bring her in) - and as I said she is waaaaaay stronger now.
ChasCT2 wrote:
Cap isn't going to be able to keep up with Jerome's reflexes (close combat or shooting)

I haven't read the newer wave of Halo books, maybe you/others have and you can show were a human has outclassed an SII in which case Cap has a decent chance.
When Jerome can actually dodge bullets and isn’t threaten by the Covevant’s sub sonic plasma projectiles, you can make that statement. Until then Halo canon and Marvel canon laugh at that notion. Uh show me where Jerome is getting hit, show me the speed of bullets in 616. There are references to Spartans dodging projectiles.
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Cap isn't going to outsmart him.
Has no relevance in a brawl so I don't see why you are trying to bring this up. Uh yes it does, exploiting weakness, seeing openings, keeping people pinned down - like say behind a shield with bullet fire while you get close, set a trap etc.
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I haven't read the newer wave of Halo books, maybe you/others have and you can show were a human has outclassed an SII in which case Cap has a decent chance.
Spartans can lift three times their body weight without armor as stated in TFoR chapter 8, And this shows a human beating an SII how?
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“Your Spartans can run at bursts of up to fifty-five KPH,” he explained. “Kelly can run a little faster, I think. They will only get quicker as they adjust to the ‘alterations’ we’ve made to their bodies. They can lift three times their body weight—which, I might add, is almost double the norm due to their increased muscle density. And they can virtually see in the dark.”
The armor Jerome has here only doubles his strength as stated in chapter 13 from the same book, As above
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“Most importantly,” Dr. Halsey said, “the armor’s inner structure is composed of a new reactive metal liquid crystal. It is amorphous, yet fractally scales and amplifies force. In simplified terms, the armor doubles the wearer’s strength, and enhances the reaction speed of a normal human by a factor of five.”
How much does Jerome weigh without armor?
According to this site’s entry it’s 290 lbs.
290 * 3 = 870 lbs for strength without armor.
This is less than peak humans today in terms of lifting strength.
870 * 2 = 1740 lbs with armor.
Which is less than Wolverine who can hold an elevator (minimal of 1200 kgs or 2645.5 lbs) with people in it, throwing Great White Sharks out of the water (which weigh between 1500 to 2400 lbs), throwing a dumpster with one arm (an empty dumpster weighs between 3750 lbs to 6500 lbs and the one he threw was filled with garbage so above that), or throwing Dragon Man who weighs 6000 lbs. And Wolverine has less impressive strength feats than Cap or Panther. As above, quote a baseline Human beating up (that's what I meant by outclass) an SII. Heck the MC was maiming ODST's at the age of 14.
ChasCT2 wrote:
Cap isn't going to be able to keep up with Jerome's reflexes (close combat or shooting)

I haven't read the newer wave of Halo books, maybe you/others have and you can show were a human has outclassed an SII in which case Cap has a decent chance.
When Jerome can actually dodge bullets and isn’t threaten by the Covevant’s sub sonic plasma projectiles, you can make that statement. Until then Halo canon and Marvel canon laugh at that notion. Uh show me where Jerome is getting hit, show me the speed of bullets in 616. There are references to Spartans dodging projectiles.
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Cap isn't going to outsmart him.
Has no relevance in a brawl so I don't see why you are trying to bring this up. Uh yes it does, exploiting weakness, seeing openings, keeping people pinned down - like say behind a shield with bullet fire while you get close, set a trap etc.
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I haven't read the newer wave of Halo books, maybe you/others have and you can show were a human has outclassed an SII in which case Cap has a decent chance.
Spartans can lift three times their body weight without armor as stated in TFoR chapter 8, And this shows a human beating an SII how?
Quote:
“Your Spartans can run at bursts of up to fifty-five KPH,” he explained. “Kelly can run a little faster, I think. They will only get quicker as they adjust to the ‘alterations’ we’ve made to their bodies. They can lift three times their body weight—which, I might add, is almost double the norm due to their increased muscle density. And they can virtually see in the dark.”
The armor Jerome has here only doubles his strength as stated in chapter 13 from the same book, As above
Quote:
“Most importantly,” Dr. Halsey said, “the armor’s inner structure is composed of a new reactive metal liquid crystal. It is amorphous, yet fractally scales and amplifies force. In simplified terms, the armor doubles the wearer’s strength, and enhances the reaction speed of a normal human by a factor of five.”
How much does Jerome weigh without armor?
According to this site’s entry it’s 290 lbs.
290 * 3 = 870 lbs for strength without armor.
This is less than peak humans today in terms of lifting strength.
870 * 2 = 1740 lbs with armor.
Which is less than Wolverine who can hold an elevator (minimal of 1200 kgs or 2645.5 lbs) with people in it, throwing Great White Sharks out of the water (which weigh between 1500 to 2400 lbs), throwing a dumpster with one arm (an empty dumpster weighs between 3750 lbs to 6500 lbs and the one he threw was filled with garbage so above that), or throwing Dragon Man who weighs 6000 lbs. And Wolverine has less impressive strength feats than Cap or Panther. As above, quote a baseline Human beating up (that's what I meant by outclass) an SII. Heck the MC was maiming ODST's at the age of 14.
Another problem I am seeing here is that people are using real world calculations to determine the relative level of strength of the Spartan 2s. This doesn't work for 2 reasons:
1) Writers never makes super soldiers mathematically correct.
2) This was their level at 14 years old. We don't know how strong they are now.
According to what Mendez said about the Spartan 2s after augmentations at age 14, they can lift AT LEAST 3 times their weight. Now this would be fine if we didn't have Spartan 2s denting MJOLNIR Mark 1 armour with their bare fists, moving faster than state of the art self targeting weapons, and kicking a Mark 1 operator 8 metres away. This was all done at age 14 and without MJOLNIR armour.

No normal human can beat a Spartan 2. Not in the Halo universe at any rate. Its just impossible.

There are not that many strength based feats in Halo that are notable but I'll write down what I can remember:
-John flipping a Warthog (Halo: The Flood)
-Cal stopping a Brute Chieftain's Hammer mid-swing. (Halo: The Babysitter)
-John smashing an Elite's skull in 1 punch (Halo: The Flood)
-Cal lifting an SOEIV from a swamp and tossed it several metres away (Halo: The Babysitter)
-John denting MJOLNIR Mark 1 armour with his bare fists, moving faster than state of the art self targeting weapons, and kicking a Mark 1 operator 8 metres away while unarmoured. (Halo Fall of Reach)
-Noble 6 elbowing an Elite General which breaks with shields and knocks him to the ground. (Halo Reach)
-Jerome punching an Elite several feet away (Halo Wars 2)
-Adriana kicking an Elite 50 metres away (Halo Envoy) - This is legit what the author wrote.
-Adriana stomps on the ground so hard it cracks (in a covenant ship) (Halo Envoy)
-Naomi kills a Brute with a single uppercut. (Halo Glasslands)
-Tanaka breaking through solid rock (Halo 5)
-Locke Spartan Charge a banshee knocking it to the side (Halo 5 armour trailer)
-Locke flipping a wraith with a ground pound (Halo 5)
-Spartan 2s can flip a tank according to WOG (conditions of this feat are unknown)

This is just for reference of Spartan feats we know off.
The thing is that there is a lot of inconsistency in the books. Spartans are OP at one moment and then are stalemated by an Elite the next.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
Cap isn't going to be able to keep up with Jerome's reflexes (close combat or shooting)

I haven't read the newer wave of Halo books, maybe you/others have and you can show were a human has outclassed an SII in which case Cap has a decent chance.
-Spartan 2s can flip a tank according to WOG (conditions of this feat are unknown)

Agreed. Halo is relatively grounded and because it is harder sci-fi than Marvel there will be a level of expected consistency. Spartans getting stronger is a combination of the original premise that they would improve on those stats shown at 14 with age and improvements in Mjolnir. Cap will literally be as strong and as durable as the writer wants dependant on what they think is cool, past stats/canon be damned.

It is completely reasonable to ignore all high end feats for Cap that don't match up. You can not have trouble with street levellers one issue then the next you are hanging with people that can crack planets.

Side note, surprised the site lets the word wog be shown, its a racial slur. lol.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
Cap isn't going to be able to keep up with Jerome's reflexes (close combat or shooting)

I haven't read the newer wave of Halo books, maybe you/others have and you can show were a human has outclassed an SII in which case Cap has a decent chance.
-Spartan 2s can flip a tank according to WOG (conditions of this feat are unknown)

Side note, surprised the site lets the word wog be shown, its a racial slur. lol.
Oh really?
I wasn't aware of that, whoops.
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