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Opinion on ONI's actions against the Elites?

OP TheSmallestPond

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Shedrakzo wrote:
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You do know that Warfleet confirmed that the Covenant controlled thousands of star systems, right?
Nope. Which page, and what is the exact number? Not just "thousands".
Page 52, titled "Covenant Sphere".

"The Covenant controlled thousands of star systems at the height of their power. So vast was the Prophets' realm and so complex its administration that entire colonies and sub-domains occasionally vanished from High Charity's records for decades before contact was re-established. While three Prophet Hierarchs directed the Covenant's strategy and held ultimate executive power, it was the High Council who managed day-to-day administration, assignment of tithe and levies, and allocation of resources to member worlds."
You do know that a star system isn't a planet, right?
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Page 52, "The Covenant controlled thousands of star systems at the height of its power. So vast was the Prophet's realm and so complex its adminstration that entire colonies and sub-domains occasionally vanished from High Charity's records for decades before contact was re-established."

As for confirmed number of, page 56 and 57 state, "Over the millennia of Covenant expansion and conquest, High Charity gorged on the wealth of hundreds of worlds." Page 57 states on the "Spires of Gifting," the docking station for High Charity. "Hundreds of docking platforms and spires received merchants, tithe-fleets, and emissaries from a thousand Covenant worlds."

Here are the confirmed populations of the book's chosen planets.

High Charity( San 'Shyuum homeworld)-23.8 million citizens, 7.7 billion menials. 15,000 Obedientaries(Majors/commanders), 290,000 warriors, 2 million thralls.
Sanghelios (Sangheili homeworld)- 3.9 billion(Previously 8.135 billion)
Hesduros( Sangheili colony)-1.9 billion
Eayn ( Kig-Yar homeworld)-978 million
Doisac( Jiralhanae homeworld)-12.5 billion
Malurok(Sangheili/ Yanme colony)-2.1 billion
Balaho (Unggoy homeworld)- 320 million
I really hope that's not it, because I still don't see the part where it says the Sangheili have thousands of worlds.

"Over the millennia of covenant expansion and conquest, High Charity gorged on the wealth of hundreds of worlds." If we're generous and assume the absolute maximum of 1999 planets for ALL of the Covenant, this is still far from the Sangheili alone having thousands of worlds.
"Hundreds of docking platforms and spires received merchants, tithe-fleets, and emissaries from a thousand Covenant worlds." Divide 1,000 by 5, that's only 200 Sangheili planets, which is nothing, and again, not in the thousands.
I doubt that would be it, having only 200 more planets then the UNSC and somehow losing some for decades doesn't make sense. This is my own opinion, but I would guess that the 1000 worlds would be the Covenant's inner colonies. Like the UNSC, those ones would be far more developed and have a good chuck of trade and production happening. Thus getting the tithe fleets and merchant fleets. The Hundreds mentioned are likely worlds for mining resources that are then sent to the assembly forges of High Charity.
Thanks Shedrakzo for quoting that. Saves me the hastle.

The size of the Sangheili's and of the Covenant's extent isn't up for debate. It's a settled matter as of Warfleet.
anton1792 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
ONI starting a war on Sanghelios, so that they could be "top dogs", is pathetic.
The context does not give us much information to be honest. Also for all we know the Station was moved to this particular location to set up a trap.
You are forgetting that the end of the war has caused massive fragmentation and confusion of all remaining parties and so a lot of equipment can now be salvaged by those who know where to look.
Correct we know little about Covenant space, which is why I say you cannot say for sure that these Space Stations are the norm within it. Until we receive more information it would be fallacious to assume so.
Infinity is powerful enough to take on a small fleet of warships. Remember that Covenant is no more, the Sangheili (at the time of Kilo 5) didn't have a huge amount of warships and more importantly didn't have the means the repair and built new ones. Under those circumstances Infinity would be much more effective. Also Infinity would probably not be sent in unknown space for recon, they would send smaller ships for that and then send Infinity afterwards.
Spartan's role in the war was exaggerated yes, but their combat capabilities are not and their presence allows the UNSC to win battles they would otherwise lose as well as complete missions that regular marines would have no chance of.
People do read what you wrote, its just that they disagree with it.
Sangheilios being 1 planet out of thousands of the Covenant =/= Sangheilios being 1 planet out of thousands of Sangheili worlds. You seem to be forgetting that the Schism broke the Covenant badly and Kilo 5 illustrates this well. Of course bombing Sangheilios means nothing in the long terms, but that's not what ONI is trying to do.
Let me make it as clear as I can: ONI does not want another war.
We have no confirmation on how many worlds the Sangheili have. We do not know if they have more than Humanity and you cannot assume that they do. We have no idea of what restrictions where placed on the Covenant species regarding colonising or if there were any at all. More importantly the Covenant is so fragmented that one of these factions is not as powerful as the UNSC.
ONI's strategy is sound. Being a civil war among the Sangheili to slow their recovery enough so that Humanity will come out on top by the end of it. Just because the Civil war started on Sangheilios doesn't mean it stayed only there. And guess what, the plan worked, Humanity is more powerful than the SoS by 2558.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
The context does not give us much information to be honest. Also for all we know the Station was moved to this particular location to set up a trap.
I think it would certainly have been moved there to set up a trap, yes. No one would place a defensive station in the middle of nowhere otherwise, given its apparent function. I don't see how this changes anything tbh.

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You are forgetting that the end of the war has caused massive fragmentation and confusion of all remaining parties and so a lot of equipment can now be salvaged by those who know where to look.
I've already asked, but how would human insurgents - who know nothing about Covenant space - and a group of Covenant mercs know where to look for a supposedly rare piece of Covenant tech as powerful as this, and then how would they acquire it given that it would likely be protecting something valuable already (Like somebody else's planet or space station)? The rarer it is, the less likely it is to fall into their hands given all the other Covenant bidders that would want it on the black market (And given how unlikely it is that they would ever find out about such a station). This is like suggesting that a bunch of Covie terrorists and innies could make off with one of Earth's orbital Super-MACs.

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Correct we know little about Covenant space, which is why I say you cannot say for sure that these Space Stations are the norm within it. Until we receive more information it would be fallacious to assume so.
I didn't say that they were likely ubiquitous due to us not knowing much about Covenant space though. My reasons covered the circumstances in which it was encountered, those being how it ended up in the hands of a bunch of nobodies.

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Infinity is powerful enough to take on a small fleet of warships. Remember that Covenant is no more, the Sangheili (at the time of Kilo 5) didn't have a huge amount of warships and more importantly didn't have the means the repair and built new ones. Under those circumstances Infinity would be much more effective.

Also Infinity would probably not be sent in unknown space for recon, they would send smaller ships for that and then send Infinity afterwards.
With regards to the first paragraph: This is something that ONI could not have known about due to the size of Covenant space, so them designing ships with that in mind is very silly of them. They had no idea what was out there. Secondly it's likely not true, due partly to the fact that Covenant space is enormous, and how dialogue from Halsey in Ghosts of Onyx (IIRC) and the Prophet of Regret in Halo Wars suggested that humanity never saw the full brunt of the Covenant's power.

With regards to the last paragraph: You mean what should have happened in Escalation? Yeah, I'm sure they've learned their lesson. It just sucks for the UNSC though that their battleship likely couldn't touch a heavily defended planet that wasn't already embroiled in civil unrest.

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Spartan's role in the war was exaggerated yes, but their combat capabilities are not and their presence allows the UNSC to win battles they would otherwise lose as well as complete missions that regular marines would have no chance of.
It's just a pity that they can't stop glassing beams from fleets.

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Sangheilios being 1 planet out of thousands of the Covenant =/= Sangheilios being 1 planet out of thousands of Sangheili worlds. You seem to be forgetting that the Schism broke the Covenant badly and Kilo 5 illustrates this well. Of course bombing Sangheilios means nothing in the long terms, but that's not what ONI is trying to do.
We have no confirmation on how many worlds the Sangheili have. We do not know if they have more than Humanity and you cannot assume that they do. We have no idea of what restrictions where placed on the Covenant species regarding colonising or if there were any at all. More importantly the Covenant is so fragmented that one of these factions is not as powerful as the UNSC.
It's not a case of the Covenant's empire being divided up neatly according to each species. The Covenant was mixed species, so there are going to be Sangheili everywhere. Most of the those worlds are going to be Sangheili worlds, with other species living on them. The Sangheili also controlled the monopoly on FTL technology in the Covenant, meaning that the other species would colonize according to the Sangheili's wishes as well. In some cases, like Malurok, we see cohabitation of Sangheili with Yanme'e. So there's a very blurry line between what differentiates the Covenant sphere and the Sangheili sphere.

And I refer you to the Warfleet quotes above that Shedrakzo provided because the rest of what you said is incorrect. The Covenant - and therefore the Sangheili (They own the FTL drives) - have more worlds than humans because High Charity itself was supplied by a thousand worlds; 1000 is greater than 800. This isn't debatable. The Covenant also controlled thousands of star systems, and given that star systems can have more than one population center within each one (Such as the Sol system), that means thousands of worlds even if some systems are not actually inhabited. The main point however is how their empire was so large that they often forgot about the existence of worlds and sub-domains. How big does an empire have to get before the central government starts having computer glitches that erase entire sub-domains from that years' tax collection and no one notices for decades? Not one of you are even close to putting up reasonable numbers here.

And I'll underline all this with the following: You cannot get that number low enough so that it makes sense for ONI to target only Sanghelios, whilst having a number of worlds for the Covenant that makes any sense with what has been explicitly stated in Warfleet. One person tried, and failed to realize that 200 Sangheili worlds still means that there are 199 other Sangheili worlds - some with billions of people on them - free to do whatever they want with all the unaccounted for fleets of the former Covenant. So, even if you were right about their worlds (You're not - you're miles off; an order of magnitude), you still wouldn't be close to making a case for what ONI did on Sanghelios. You'd just be entirely missing the point.

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Just because the Civil war started on Sangheilios doesn't mean it stayed only there.
That's like starting a civil war in the UK and then expecting it to spread to every corner of the Earth. No doubt it would travel to some worlds, but it only did so in the case of Hesduros because of Jul 'Mdama, and even that might not have happened if Jul hadn't emerged from one of those believed-to-be-dead Translocation Portals, sporting Forerunner glyphs of the Didact on his belt and pretending to be a prophet that came to raise the Didact in order to manipulate the locals' religious beliefs for his own ends. There's absolutely no reason to believe that any civil conflict on Sanghelios would necessarily spread to worlds that are not affiliated with, or have any interest in, Sanghelios.

(And it's been said here that Jul was just an unforeseen accident anyway when it comes to hand-waving away how ONI's plot gave birth to the Neo-Covenant that went on to attack the UNSC, so there's a need to take ownership of one's own your argument and dismiss him here too - that he, and therefore Hesduros, was just an unforeseen and unlucky outcome)

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Humanity is more powerful than the SoS by 2558.
Can you show evidence of that without using the word Infinity or Spartan?
anton1792 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
And I refer you to the Warfleet quotes above that Shedrakzo provided because the rest of what you said is incorrect. The Covenant - and therefore the Sangheili (They own the FTL drives) - have more worlds than humans because High Charity itself was supplied by a thousand worlds; 1000 is greater than 800. This isn't debatable. The Covenant also controlled thousands of star systems, and given that star systems can have more than one population center within each one (Such as the Sol system), that means thousands of worlds even if some systems are not actually inhabited. The main point however is how their empire was so large that they often forgot about the existence of worlds and sub-domains. How big does an empire have to get before the central government starts having computer glitches that erase entire sub-domains from that years' tax collection and no one notices for decades? Not one of you are even close to putting up reasonable numbers here.

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I supplied those quotes.... I wonder how large a covenant "sub-domain" would be. Would guess a few star systems.
anton1792 wrote:
And I'll underline all this with the following: You cannot get that number low enough so that it makes sense for ONI to target only Sanghelios, whilst having a number of worlds for the Covenant that makes any sense with what has been explicitly stated in Warfleet. One person tried, and failed to realize that 200 Sangheili worlds still means that there are 199 other Sangheili worlds - some with billions of people on them - free to do whatever they want with all the unaccounted for fleets of the former Covenant. So, even if you were right about their worlds (You're not - you're miles off; an order of magnitude), you still wouldn't be close to making a case for what ONI did on Sanghelios. You'd just be entirely missing the point.
Dude, you're somehow both writing the point and missing the point. The point is to keep the Sangheili weak. You do that by targeting the only place they are currently strong. It's not about starting a civil war to spread everywhere, and it's not about them currently having central leadership - it's about preventing them from having central leadership ever again, and where is the current most likely place for that central leadership to arise, to ONI's knowledge? Sanghelios.
It makes perfect sense to target Sanghelios in exactly the way they did. It's a risk, but a calculated one. Again I don't quite know why this is such a foreign concept to you: humanity has been putting this tactic to work for thousands of years: the Halo universe just stuck another 500 on it.
anton1792 wrote:
And I'll underline all this with the following: You cannot get that number low enough so that it makes sense for ONI to target only Sanghelios, whilst having a number of worlds for the Covenant that makes any sense with what has been explicitly stated in Warfleet. One person tried, and failed to realize that 200 Sangheili worlds still means that there are 199 other Sangheili worlds - some with billions of people on them - free to do whatever they want with all the unaccounted for fleets of the former Covenant. So, even if you were right about their worlds (You're not - you're miles off; an order of magnitude), you still wouldn't be close to making a case for what ONI did on Sanghelios. You'd just be entirely missing the point.
Dude, you're somehow both writing the point and missing the point. The point is to keep the Sangheili weak. You do that by targeting the only place they are currently strong. It's not about starting a civil war to spread everywhere, and it's not about them currently having central leadership - it's about preventing them from having central leadership ever again, and where is the current most likely place for that central leadership to arise, to ONI's knowledge? Sanghelios.
It makes perfect sense to target Sanghelios in exactly the way they did. It's a risk, but a calculated one. Again I don't quite know why this is such a foreign concept to you: humanity has been putting this tactic to work for thousands of years: the Halo universe just stuck another 500 on it.
Makes one wonder what ONI would have done had their plans backfired worse then they did with the Arbiter and Swords finding out.
Ado Ulamee wrote:
anton1792 wrote:
And I'll underline all this with the following: You cannot get that number low enough so that it makes sense for ONI to target only Sanghelios, whilst having a number of worlds for the Covenant that makes any sense with what has been explicitly stated in Warfleet. One person tried, and failed to realize that 200 Sangheili worlds still means that there are 199 other Sangheili worlds - some with billions of people on them - free to do whatever they want with all the unaccounted for fleets of the former Covenant. So, even if you were right about their worlds (You're not - you're miles off; an order of magnitude), you still wouldn't be close to making a case for what ONI did on Sanghelios. You'd just be entirely missing the point.
Dude, you're somehow both writing the point and missing the point. The point is to keep the Sangheili weak. You do that by targeting the only place they are currently strong. It's not about starting a civil war to spread everywhere, and it's not about them currently having central leadership - it's about preventing them from having central leadership ever again, and where is the current most likely place for that central leadership to arise, to ONI's knowledge? Sanghelios.
It makes perfect sense to target Sanghelios in exactly the way they did. It's a risk, but a calculated one. Again I don't quite know why this is such a foreign concept to you: humanity has been putting this tactic to work for thousands of years: the Halo universe just stuck another 500 on it.
Makes one wonder what ONI would have done had their plans backfired worse then they did with the Arbiter and Swords finding out.
Pummelled the whole place with some MAC rain from the Infinity.
anton1792 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
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Humanity is more powerful than the SoS by 2558.
Can you show evidence of that without using the word Infinity or Spartan?
We have no context behind that particular space station. We don't know where it was originally and how many more there are. We literally have no information about this station, that's my point. As such it is dangerous to assume anything about it. Of course the Covenant likely have other's like it. But how many, we don't know. How rare, we don't know.
Also, really? You are comparing that to Insurrectionists stealing one of Earth's Super MACs? Don't make me point out what is wrong with that comparison.

The New Colonial Alliance is far from a bunch a nobodies. They are more powerful than the UNSC thinks, prove of this is precisely that they were able to target Infinity, which is by far the boldest move they have ever made. Then if we look at Venezia which is a cesspool of Inies, ex-Covenant and other we see that this is allowing Insurrectionists access to powerful Covenant tech such as AA guns and even a battlecruiser and those people are literally nobodies. Its not surprising that the NCA + a Covenant Mercenary group can get access to more powerful weapons.

They can't stop glassing beams, but they can board enemy ships and blow then up, or assassinate leaders of the Covenant.

How do you know how the Covenant's space is divided up? We literally have no idea. Just because the Covenant was mixed does not mean that Sangheili are everywhere. Why would most of those worlds belong to the Sangheili? Where does it say that Sangheili controlled FTL tech, I am pretty sure the Prophets were the ones who controlled all the tech within the Covenant.
Warfleet's quote does not contradict my point. 1000 worlds, of which 1) we have no idea how many the Sangheili control 2) we have no idea how many are untied with which faction of the Sangheili. The Sangheili are most definitely not united, we have the Swords of Sangheilios, Jul's Covenant, Sali Nylon's Covenant, Luro's Covenant, Servants of Abiding Truth, some which are tired from the war, and some which have no idea what has been happening these last few years. Then there is fact that we don't know if some of these worlds are inhabited or used for some other purpose.
The Covenant was large yes, but it was never very efficient, it had all sorts of problems with some species, such as the Kig-Yar having their own agendas and other species not caring about the fate of others.
You say I'm not close to putting reasonable numbers, but at least I don't simplify and say that the Sangheili have access to 1000 words.

No I believe you are missing the point.
First, I will reiterate again: ONI does not want war with the Sangheili.
Second, Sangheilios may only be 1 world among hundreds that the Sangheili possess, but it is their homeworld and it is where they make the decisions that will affect their species. Just like the heart of the UNSC is Earth so too is Sangheilios to the Sangheili. The political decisions made on Sangheilios will affect the rest of Sangheili space over time.
Your analogy of the UK is flawed. A more apt one would be if the UK had colonised every corner of the globe and then suffered at civil war.

"No doubt it would travel to some worlds, but it only did so in the case of Hesduros because of Jul 'Mdama, and even that might not have happened if Jul hadn't emerged from one of those believed-to-be-dead Translocation Portals, sporting Forerunner glyphs of the Didact on his belt and pretending to be a prophet that came to raise the Didact in order to manipulate the locals' religious beliefs for his own ends. There's absolutely no reason to believe that any civil conflict on Sanghelios would necessarily spread to worlds that are not affiliated with, or have any interest in, Sanghelios."
^This literally proves my point on how fragmented Sangheili society is.

Sorry to break it to you, but Infinity and Spartans are a part of the UNSC.
Besides Humanity has massively improved their ship capabilities with the introduction of the Autumn class cruiser, Strident-class frigate etc...
You do that by targeting the only place they are currently strong.
That's a totally unwarranted assumption. No doubt Sanghelios is where they are strongest, but there's no reason to suppose that it's the only place where they are strong relative to post-2553 UEG. Refer to the size of Covenant space above if you've somehow got a problem with that.

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It's not about starting a civil war to spread everywhere, and it's not about them currently having central leadership - it's about preventing them from having central leadership ever again, and where is the current most likely place for that central leadership to arise, to ONI's knowledge? Sanghelios.
In spite of the totalitarian nature of the Covenant government on High Charity, the Sangheili were not centrally united along cultural or racial lines, and there's no reason to assume that they ever will, as far as ONI knows or not. Refer to my description of Hesduros, the description of Malurok in Warfleet, and my posts going over the significance of the Carver Findings.

You guys are starting to recycle points you made at the start to be honest, so unless any additional points I haven't already refuted are brought forward then I'm just gonna refer you back to past posts. I think we're done here though tbh.
Ado Ulamee wrote:
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Page 52, "The Covenant controlled thousands of star systems at the height of its power. So vast was the Prophet's realm and so complex its adminstration that entire colonies and sub-domains occasionally vanished from High Charity's records for decades before contact was re-established."

As for confirmed number of, page 56 and 57 state, "Over the millennia of Covenant expansion and conquest, High Charity gorged on the wealth of hundreds of worlds." Page 57 states on the "Spires of Gifting," the docking station for High Charity. "Hundreds of docking platforms and spires received merchants, tithe-fleets, and emissaries from a thousand Covenant worlds."

Here are the confirmed populations of the book's chosen planets.

High Charity( San 'Shyuum homeworld)-23.8 million citizens, 7.7 billion menials. 15,000 Obedientaries(Majors/commanders), 290,000 warriors, 2 million thralls.
Sanghelios (Sangheili homeworld)- 3.9 billion(Previously 8.135 billion)
Hesduros( Sangheili colony)-1.9 billion
Eayn ( Kig-Yar homeworld)-978 million
Doisac( Jiralhanae homeworld)-12.5 billion
Malurok(Sangheili/ Yanme colony)-2.1 billion
Balaho (Unggoy homeworld)- 320 million
I really hope that's not it, because I still don't see the part where it says the Sangheili have thousands of worlds.

"Over the millennia of covenant expansion and conquest, High Charity gorged on the wealth of hundreds of worlds." If we're generous and assume the absolute maximum of 1999 planets for ALL of the Covenant, this is still far from the Sangheili alone having thousands of worlds.
"Hundreds of docking platforms and spires received merchants, tithe-fleets, and emissaries from a thousand Covenant worlds." Divide 1,000 by 5, that's only 200 Sangheili planets, which is nothing, and again, not in the thousands.
I doubt that would be it, having only 200 more planets then the UNSC and somehow losing some for decades doesn't make sense. This is my own opinion, but I would guess that the 1000 worlds would be the Covenant's inner colonies. Like the UNSC, those ones would be far more developed and have a good chuck of trade and production happening. Thus getting the tithe fleets and merchant fleets. The Hundreds mentioned are likely worlds for mining resources that are then sent to the assembly forges of High Charity.
I don't have a problem with there being more than 1,000 Covenant planets. If we highball the other quote, that would be almost 2,000 Covenant worlds, which I'm fine with. 200 or 400 Sangheili planets, both make sense and it doesn't really matter to me. I'm just glad Warfleet confirmed there aren't "thousands" of Sangheili planets like some Covenant fanboys were saying, not that Warfleet really needed to confirm it, the idea was ludicrous to begin with.

As far as the Covenant losing track of their own planets "feat" goes, the only thing this is a testament to is the Covenants blatant incompetence. It's like saying the U.N. could lose track of some of Earths islands, since there's just sooo many of them lol. The idea of a dozen Grunts in a control room on High Charity trying to find a "missing" stationary planet for decades is hilarious to me.
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Quote:
Page 52, "The Covenant controlled thousands of star systems at the height of its power. So vast was the Prophet's realm and so complex its adminstration that entire colonies and sub-domains occasionally vanished from High Charity's records for decades before contact was re-established."

As for confirmed number of, page 56 and 57 state, "Over the millennia of Covenant expansion and conquest, High Charity gorged on the wealth of hundreds of worlds." Page 57 states on the "Spires of Gifting," the docking station for High Charity. "Hundreds of docking platforms and spires received merchants, tithe-fleets, and emissaries from a thousand Covenant worlds."

Here are the confirmed populations of the book's chosen planets.

High Charity( San 'Shyuum homeworld)-23.8 million citizens, 7.7 billion menials. 15,000 Obedientaries(Majors/commanders), 290,000 warriors, 2 million thralls.
Sanghelios (Sangheili homeworld)- 3.9 billion(Previously 8.135 billion)
Hesduros( Sangheili colony)-1.9 billion
Eayn ( Kig-Yar homeworld)-978 million
Doisac( Jiralhanae homeworld)-12.5 billion
Malurok(Sangheili/ Yanme colony)-2.1 billion
Balaho (Unggoy homeworld)- 320 million
I don't have a problem with there being more than 1,000 Covenant planets. If we highball the other quote, that would be almost 2,000 Covenant worlds, which I'm fine with. 200 or 400 Sangheili planets, both make sense and it doesn't really matter to me. I'm just glad Warfleet confirmed there aren't "thousands" of Sangheili planets like some Covenant fanboys were saying, not that Warfleet really needed to confirm it, the idea was ludicrous to begin with.

As far as the Covenant losing track of their own planets "feat" goes, the only thing this is a testament to is the Covenants blatant incompetence. It's like saying the U.N. could lose track of some of Earths islands, since there's just sooo many of them lol. The idea of a dozen Grunts in a control room on High Charity trying to find a "missing" stationary planet for decades is hilarious to me.
Well, it never confirmed or denied how many belonged to the sangheili fully. It does however mention that planet leadership fell to san shyuum governors after High Charity fell. Said governors would later leave on the exodus, leaving said planets to others. The only time I have seen a confirmed number of sangheili colonies was Broken Circle which mentioned 76 during the first year or two of the Covenant's existence.
anton1792 wrote:
You do that by targeting the only place they are currently strong.
That's a totally unwarranted assumption. No doubt Sanghelios is where they are strongest, but there's no reason to suppose that it's the only place where they are strong relative to post-2553 UEG. Refer to the size of Covenant space above if you've somehow got a problem with that.

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It's not about starting a civil war to spread everywhere, and it's not about them currently having central leadership - it's about preventing them from having central leadership ever again, and where is the current most likely place for that central leadership to arise, to ONI's knowledge? Sanghelios.
In spite of the totalitarian nature of the Covenant government on High Charity, the Sangheili were not centrally united along cultural or racial lines, and there's no reason to assume that they ever will, as far as ONI knows or not. Refer to my description of Hesduros, the description of Malurok in Warfleet, and my posts going over the significance of the Carver Findings.

You guys are starting to recycle points you made at the start to be honest, so unless any additional points I haven't already refuted are brought forward then I'm just gonna refer you back to past posts. I think we're done here though tbh.
That's the point though, ONI probably doesn't know how divided the Sangheili are.
And even if they knew that doesn't change the fact that Sangheilios is one of the places where the Sangheili are strongest on top of being their homeworld and their species current centre of power.
Sure there are areas in Sangheili space that doesn't have anything to do with Sangheilios, that are tired of the war etc... but that doesn't change much for ONI. Destabilising Sangheilios will still cause chaos for the Sangheili which gives Humanity some time to recover.
I have looked at your Carver post but I fail to see what's so significant about it that I haven't already refuted.
I think its quite clear that we disagree on this topic and you and I are not changing each other's mind.
Three decades of being on the losing side, over 20 billion dead, thousands of lost ships and crews, hundreds of worlds and the average elite standing almost 8 foot and almost as strong as a Spartan. I understand ONI desire to have every advantage in their deck as they can.
Three decades of being on the losing side, over 20 billion dead, thousands of lost ships and crews, hundreds of worlds and the average elite standing almost 8 foot and almost as strong as a Spartan. I understand ONI desire to have every advantage in their deck as they can.
Right? It's well and nice that the Arbiter wants to be friends, but the real reason to not obliterate their species is that you're better off being able to see what they're up to, with a finger not at all far from the trigger.
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Quote:
Page 52, "The Covenant controlled thousands of star systems at the height of its power. So vast was the Prophet's realm and so complex its adminstration that entire colonies and sub-domains occasionally vanished from High Charity's records for decades before contact was re-established."

As for confirmed number of, page 56 and 57 state, "Over the millennia of Covenant expansion and conquest, High Charity gorged on the wealth of hundreds of worlds." Page 57 states on the "Spires of Gifting," the docking station for High Charity. "Hundreds of docking platforms and spires received merchants, tithe-fleets, and emissaries from a thousand Covenant worlds."

Here are the confirmed populations of the book's chosen planets.

High Charity( San 'Shyuum homeworld)-23.8 million citizens, 7.7 billion menials. 15,000 Obedientaries(Majors/commanders), 290,000 warriors, 2 million thralls.
Sanghelios (Sangheili homeworld)- 3.9 billion(Previously 8.135 billion)
Hesduros( Sangheili colony)-1.9 billion
Eayn ( Kig-Yar homeworld)-978 million
Doisac( Jiralhanae homeworld)-12.5 billion
Malurok(Sangheili/ Yanme colony)-2.1 billion
Balaho (Unggoy homeworld)- 320 million
I don't have a problem with there being more than 1,000 Covenant planets. If we highball the other quote, that would be almost 2,000 Covenant worlds, which I'm fine with. 200 or 400 Sangheili planets, both make sense and it doesn't really matter to me. I'm just glad Warfleet confirmed there aren't "thousands" of Sangheili planets like some Covenant fanboys were saying, not that Warfleet really needed to confirm it, the idea was ludicrous to begin with.

As far as the Covenant losing track of their own planets "feat" goes, the only thing this is a testament to is the Covenants blatant incompetence. It's like saying the U.N. could lose track of some of Earths islands, since there's just sooo many of them lol. The idea of a dozen Grunts in a control room on High Charity trying to find a "missing" stationary planet for decades is hilarious to me.
Well, it never confirmed or denied how many belonged to the sangheili fully. It does however mention that planet leadership fell to san shyuum governors after High Charity fell. Said governors would later leave on the exodus, leaving said planets to others. The only time I have seen a confirmed number of sangheili colonies was Broken Circle which mentioned 76 during the first year or two of the Covenant's existence.
Obviously the Sangheili would have more planets than the Lekgolo, but I'd like to think the Jackals and Drones have more than the Sangheili. I'd also say it's debatable who has more between the Grunts and Elites. I just divide by 5 for simplicitys sake. And the reason I divide by 5 instead of 9 is because, it's confirmed the Brutes only have 1 Planet, the Prophets are basically almost extinct and don't really own any planets as much as they do occupy a small part of them, the Engineers don't have any planets period, and I don't really know anything about the ninth Covenant race whose name I don't even remember.
Justified, perhaps, in light of all that has happened. Not convinced some of the courses of action were the best in the long term, but that's a matter of hindsight. In the present, we make decisions and take action because to not do so, is to cede the advantages of time and initiative to the foe (potential foe). In principle, ONI is on target doing what they can to disrupt our one-time Covenant foes. Yes, they turned on the Covenant and it fell apart, but the enemy of my enemy... is not my friend. And even friends aren't always looking out for one's best interest. It would be naive to think other species are not eyeing Humanity with the same intent, and if they are not then they have foolishly ceded time and initiative to us.
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Quote:
Page 52, "The Covenant controlled thousands of star systems at the height of its power. So vast was the Prophet's realm and so complex its adminstration that entire colonies and sub-domains occasionally vanished from High Charity's records for decades before contact was re-established."

As for confirmed number of, page 56 and 57 state, "Over the millennia of Covenant expansion and conquest, High Charity gorged on the wealth of hundreds of worlds." Page 57 states on the "Spires of Gifting," the docking station for High Charity. "Hundreds of docking platforms and spires received merchants, tithe-fleets, and emissaries from a thousand Covenant worlds."

Here are the confirmed populations of the book's chosen planets.

High Charity( San 'Shyuum homeworld)-23.8 million citizens, 7.7 billion menials. 15,000 Obedientaries(Majors/commanders), 290,000 warriors, 2 million thralls.
Sanghelios (Sangheili homeworld)- 3.9 billion(Previously 8.135 billion)
Hesduros( Sangheili colony)-1.9 billion
Eayn ( Kig-Yar homeworld)-978 million
Doisac( Jiralhanae homeworld)-12.5 billion
Malurok(Sangheili/ Yanme colony)-2.1 billion
Balaho (Unggoy homeworld)- 320 million
Obviously the Sangheili would have more planets than the Lekgolo, but I'd like to think the Jackals and Drones have more than the Sangheili. I'd also say it's debatable who has more between the Grunts and Elites. I just divide by 5 for simplicitys sake. And the reason I divide by 5 instead of 9 is because, it's confirmed the Brutes only have 1 Planet, the Prophets are basically almost extinct and don't really own any planets as much as they do occupy a small part of them, the Engineers don't have any planets period, and I don't really know anything about the ninth Covenant race whose name I don't even remember.
I do know the Kig-Yar appear to prefer the asteroids of their home system and expanded out there rather then their own world. The Yanme are used as workers and just make hives. So with them there's likely a population of them on most covenant planets to be used for labor. The Unggoy just have their homeworld, and are only brought to other planets to either work, or fight. In reality though, I think we can agree though that Covenant space is simply as large as 343 wants it.
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Ado Ulamee wrote:
Quote:
Page 52, "The Covenant controlled thousands of star systems at the height of its power. So vast was the Prophet's realm and so complex its adminstration that entire colonies and sub-domains occasionally vanished from High Charity's records for decades before contact was re-established."

As for confirmed number of, page 56 and 57 state, "Over the millennia of Covenant expansion and conquest, High Charity gorged on the wealth of hundreds of worlds." Page 57 states on the "Spires of Gifting," the docking station for High Charity. "Hundreds of docking platforms and spires received merchants, tithe-fleets, and emissaries from a thousand Covenant worlds."

Here are the confirmed populations of the book's chosen planets.

High Charity( San 'Shyuum homeworld)-23.8 million citizens, 7.7 billion menials. 15,000 Obedientaries(Majors/commanders), 290,000 warriors, 2 million thralls.
Sanghelios (Sangheili homeworld)- 3.9 billion(Previously 8.135 billion)
Hesduros( Sangheili colony)-1.9 billion
Eayn ( Kig-Yar homeworld)-978 million
Doisac( Jiralhanae homeworld)-12.5 billion
Malurok(Sangheili/ Yanme colony)-2.1 billion
Balaho (Unggoy homeworld)- 320 million
Obviously the Sangheili would have more planets than the Lekgolo, but I'd like to think the Jackals and Drones have more than the Sangheili. I'd also say it's debatable who has more between the Grunts and Elites. I just divide by 5 for simplicitys sake. And the reason I divide by 5 instead of 9 is because, it's confirmed the Brutes only have 1 Planet, the Prophets are basically almost extinct and don't really own any planets as much as they do occupy a small part of them, the Engineers don't have any planets period, and I don't really know anything about the ninth Covenant race whose name I don't even remember.
I do know the Kig-Yar appear to prefer the asteroids of their home system and expanded out there rather then their own world. The Yanme are used as workers and just make hives. So with them there's likely a population of them on most covenant planets to be used for labor. The Unggoy just have their homeworld, and are only brought to other planets to either work, or fight. In reality though, I think we can agree though that Covenant space is simply as large as 343 wants it.
Definitely.
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