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Should there be hostile humans in halo: Infinite

OP AnobodyYT

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MysticKami wrote:
I feel bad when I take out the Marines in Warzone. And those are just simulation troopers. I don't want to see Chief popping people in the head during campaign!
But think of all the easy Rec points you get as each Marine dies screaming in agony :)
MysticKami wrote:
I feel bad when I take out the Marines in Warzone. And those are just simulation troopers. I don't want to see Chief popping people in the head during campaign!
But think of all the easy Rec points you get as each Marine dies screaming in agony :)
Their digital screams haunt my dreams.
Where does it specifically say in the lore that the banished accept humans? All that I remember is that on the Spartan Field Manual there is a piece of information that says they're willing to accept people from any species as long as they bow to Atriox, but I think this is pretty weak evidence (compared to the Keepers of the Abiding Truth, for example, who are specifically said to accept humans in their ranks). So far I don't remember anywhere in the lore anything that alludes to humans working with the banished. I hope I'm wrong though, because I think it's about time we fight some humans in the Halo games (besides that one time in ODST), since it happens consistently in the books.
To be honest, I doubt we’ll see human enemies in the campaign. Halo has always stayed away from killing humans, such as Halo 2 having the Arbiter fight every thing but.
The closest they’ve gotten is the troopers in Warzone, and as others have pointed out, it kinda felt weird. I thinks it’s because you’re a superhuman that can batter the hell out of enemies, and having you kill humans would likely effect the age rating.
I prefer shooting aliens than humans game and lore, I'll say no.
I'd like it within reason; if they fit in the sandbox and aren't just shoved in for canonical reasons, I'd probably enjoy it. Kinda emphasises how different the Banished are from the Covenant, doesn't it?
At this point I don't care if we get to fight toilets, but humans are especially problematic because now you are not just shifting focus away from the precursors, the prometheans or anything new we hadn't seen and trying to mould and stretch the old, but because regular humans like marines or the army were always the equivalent of grunts gameplay-wise. We have to fight grunts if we want to call it Halo, but I don't see the point of having 2 characters fulfilling the exact same role.
2. The rise of the Created and the Banished into prominent malicious actors generally opposed to Humanity, regardless of faction loyalty, means that the Innies and the UNSC are backed into a similar corner to that which they were during the early days of the H/C War-- namely, mutually threatened by an overwhelmingly powerful common enemy.
The Banished have been stated to be willing to hire members of any species including humans. If the Banished are retconed to be a human hating faction, that's horrible story telling and contradicts so many things.

It wouldn't make sense for the Brutes and Elites of the Banished to forgive each other for the atrocities of the Great Schism, but not forgive the humans for the Human-Covenant War they instigated. Atriox even forgave and hired the Silent Shadow Elites genocidally slaughtering his Brute crewmen. That Silent Shadow squad sought vengeance against all Brutes for the betrayal of Great Schism.

Furthermore a Human-Covenant War 2.0 would be a terrible rehash that would devalue the climax of the original, what makes the post-war era a good evolution is that things aren't black and white and go beyond 'human good, alien bad'. The post-war era allows for humans to work with aliens, and that's something to be emphasized. It's time for a new direction in the story, and give the Banished an intelligent motive, rather than making them a human-hating Covenant 2.0 to be milked over and over again.
  • The Created welcome humans: "Humanity, Sangheili, Kig-Yar, Unggoy, San'Shyuum, Yohnet, Jiralhanae. All the living creatures of the galaxy, hear this message".
  • The Banished welcome humans: "In theory, all who can aid Atriox's ambition and will bend the knee are welcome, from human to hunter".
The Created and Banished being against the UNSC, makes sense. The Created and Banished being against the human species, makes no sense at all and is a terrible direction to go post-war. Ever since we saw the Elites join forces with the humans at the end of Halo 2 to fight against the Brutes, the universe's story became significantly more sophisticated and mature, we shouldn't dumb it back down to 'humans good, aliens bad'.
@SergeantDavee I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you on it being bad storytelling, although I still think the Insurrectionists have very little to offer the Banished strategically. Credit for the quote citation for the Banished being at least not principally opposed to Human alliance, though, I don't recall ever having seen that and it is interesting.

The biggest reason I don't think we'll ever fight Human enemies in a mainline Halo game really boils down to the fact that I think MS is trying to keep Halo as a largely "humans good, aliens bad," paradigm. I think it's pretty debatable whether the postwar era is or isn't a good narrative evolution to the original H/C War (let alone better than it outright), but I do agree that rehashing an H/C War that's really just reframed as the H/B(anished) War is a bit of a cheap option, certainly from the perspective of narrative complexity.

Again, though, I think MS is less interested in narrative complexity and honoring a progressive postwar arc in the Lore that's been ongoing since H4 and more interested in trying to recapture the success of the original Halo games set in the H/C War (only this time, more marketable to the whole family). All the "Spiritual Reboot," stuff feels like it's hinting at that direction to me, along with all the stuff detailed in my first post. Some elements are almost sure to survive, like the UNSC's alliance with Arbiter's faction, but I do think a lot of the complexities between all of the disparate groups are deliberately going to be "reset," to a more easily digestible (for less lore-invested audiences) situation. Whether or not this is a good move isn't what I'm arguing, I'm just saying that I think it's what Microsoft is pushing for.

**Edit- It's not lost on me that the majority of my argument banks on the metanarrative side of things rather than specific Lore-based reasoning, and that may be a bit out of scope for the intended conversation since this is in the Lore topic, but to me it's a situation where the metanarrative and narrative are inseparable; the Lore won't be allowed to pursue Human vs Human hostilities beyond a pretty limited point if the people making the high level creative and marketing decisions won't allow it to branch into the main games.
@Superman Kenobi We mostly agree, most of my argument is directed at the higher ups should they take the story in a casual friendly direction to the point where they dumb down and retcon the established lore.
Would be interesting to see, but I got the impression from Escharum's speech that he doesn't much care for humans. He directed his vitriol at the UNSC specifically, but it felt like he just doesn't like humans in general.

Atriox may not care, but Escharum's forces within the Banished may not be so keen on working with humans.
Which is stupid considering Elites and Brutes are working together in the Banished. It would be bad writing for the Banished Brutes and Elites to forgive each other for slaughtering during the Great Schism, and not forgive the humans for the Human-Covenant war they instigated.

Atriox said "vengeance is petty, vengeance has no reward" and forgave the Silent Shadow Elites who were genocidally slaughtering his Brutes. Atriox is even willing to recruit humans should they wish to join. If Escharum wants to honor Atriox's will, going on a genocidal campaign is the perfect way to spit on it.

Hating humans is a garbage motive at this point in the lore. I hope Escharum and his group of Banished are fighting the UNSC for an actual good reason that will be revealed in the story, and not just because they're humans.
Totally agree with you. I was just pointing out that the vibe I got from Escharum was extremely xenophobic toward humans. I hope I'm just reading too much into it, because human Banished would be way too cool. Though I'd imagine their treatment would fall somewhere between the Unggoy and the Kig Yar within the Banished. Definitely not an enviable position even if the Banished accept you as one of their own.
His whole speech is about how he thinks John is awesome and can’t wait to have one last war against such a worthy opponent. He dismisses the UNSC due to the ease with which he defeated them, but that’s the closest he ever gets to hinting at any disrespect toward humans in general. If he hated humans, his speech would reflect that, and be filled with curses against John. But it isn’t. He sees John as a fellow warrior.
It would make for an interesting subplot.
I do not think that 343i and Microsoft want a game with Human v Human violences. It is not the spirit of Halo games even if this dark side of the conflicts is well present in books.
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