Spartan 2 unarmoured strength

Where does the out of breath lifting containers come from?

The main one that gets me is when Halsey survive being punched by Lucy, gets my goat that does.

We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.

smasher555 wrote:

MajorCurryBread wrote:

We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.

The only problem with this is that the value used is completely wrong. Each armour system boosts their strength by different amounts.

From https://www.halopedia.org/MJOLNIR_Powered_Assault_Armor_(GEN2) (with the reference for this note being Frank O'Connor interview during San Diego Comic-Con 2012 (1:15–2:10) ) : "As a result, the armor multiplies the strength of its wearer significantly more than the first-generation suits, granting the Spartan-IVs roughly equal strength as their predecessors while wearing the suit."

This would indicate that the limitations are from the Spartans, and not the armor, as the Gen2 armor puts Spartan IV's on the same footing as Spartan II's in Gen1 armor, but this also just signifies that, if anything, the Spartan II's are even stronger than I had previously stated. I had thought about posting this initially, but it is so outlandish that I refrained.

smasher555 wrote:

MajorCurryBread wrote:

We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.

The only problem with this is that the value used is completely wrong. Each armour system boosts their strength by different amounts.

Yep.
Mark 4 and Mark 5 = x2
Mark 6 = x5
Gen 2 = uncertain (either only x5 or x5+)

The problem is that I feel that none of the authors of the Halo novels agree on the base strength of Spartans as well as making the differences between MJOLNIRs insignificant.
For example John in mark 5 is about equal in strength to a Sangheili. Thus in Mark 6 he should be stronger. However Thorne in Gen 2 didn't seem to be stronger than Gek. (After all, a Spartan 4 in Gen 2 = Spartan 2 in Gen 1 mark 6)
Then again this example may not be the best as Thorn was exhausted, injured and his suit was damaged while Gek was fresh and was a 343-era phenotype elite which are physically larger and stronger than the Bungie-era phenotype.

EvilKeny28 wrote:

MajorCurryBread wrote:

smasher555 wrote:

MajorCurryBread wrote:

We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.

Theoretically you are right. If Gen 2 functions similar to Gen 1 and since it is more powerful than Gen 1, a Spartan 2 in Gen 2 should be even stronger.
However the fight between Locke and Chief showed that in terms of physical ability, both were quite similar.
Lore-wise this could be explained through a variety of reasons:
1) Chief held back more than Locke. (Possible but unlikely considering John threw the first punch and was throwing very heavy blows throughout the fight)
2) Gen 2 works differently than Gen 1 and is optimised for Spartan 4s, hence Spartan 2s don't get as many benefits.
3) Spartan 4 augmentations as specifically tailored to each individual, meaning that t is possible that some Spartan 4's can withstand stronger enhancements than others due to their genetics. (This is purely speculation as there is no indication of this at all)
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.

I can get on board with some of these (and also propose that at the very least the fight between Locke and Chief just wasn't very well orchestrated), especially 1,2, and 4.

1: I can see number 1 because while Chief had a strong desire to find Cortana, I do not think he had any intention of killing a valuable asset to humanity.
2: This could be a very distinct possibility. At a certain point the armor could become more of a hindrance than a boon for combat strength (not in raw physical strength, please don't jump down my throat guys and gals) and dexterity. The armor is obviously becoming more fluid and might limit the raw power of a Spartan II's body, while still increasing the strength of a Spartan IV's body. This is obviously speculatory.
4: Similar in theory to reason number 2, it could simply be a more enhanced version of the newer armor, which brings more strength back into the equation (though Locke's Hunter class armor is made for assassination and capture, not specifically CQC).

EvilKeny28 wrote:

MajorCurryBread wrote:

smasher555 wrote:

MajorCurryBread wrote:

We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.

Theoretically you are right.
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.

I think that makes most sense.

One thing that has always irked me from Nylunds' days is the fact that Mjolnir doesn't improve, on paper, a Spartans speed by much.

EvilKeny28 wrote:

Yeah that's always confused me too.
A few months after augmentation the Spartan 2s were said to be able to run at speeds exceeding 55 km/h or 34.2 mph; Kelly was said to be able to run even faster.
John in Mark 5 with Cortana was able to run around 105 km/h or 65.2 mph. (I assume Cortana released the suits safety limits similar to the Sprint armour ability).
Kelly in Gen 2 armour is capable of running in excess of 65 km/h or 40.4 mph.
I assume the main reason why the suits don't enhance the running speed of the Spartans is because of the strain on bodies especially their tendons (even augmented humans have limits).
This might also be the reason why Gen 2 doesn't enhance Spartan 2s as much as Spartan 4s, because of the safety limits.

What I always thought was the reason his tendons tore was more because the anti tank missile and not because of how fast he was running. However after see the new armors thruster capabilities I believe i was wrong. You can only make a body part move so fast before it starts taking damage from it. Gen 2 gets around this by not making them run faster but give them the momentum to leap or bound far distances through the suit. The Spartan Locke armor trailer for halo 5 shows us that they can do this continuously. I remember someone calcing the speed to be 70mph or around that I think. I don't remember where that was posted though.

MajorCurryBread wrote:

We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.

While The quote that they can lift 3x their body weight isn't wrong I think using it as that basis for how strong Spartans are unarmored is wrong. Keep in mind that was right after they got augmented, they were still only 14 at the time. I may not be a spartan but i know for a fact that i can could lift a significantly high percentage of my body weight when I was 18 than when I was 14. Also Mendez stated that they would only get faster as they adjusted to their augmentations. While this isn't talking about strength i don't see why only their speed would increase as running requires muscle strength just like lifting.

Also them flipping a Tank isn't canon and even if it was flipping a tank or any vehicle for that mater wouldn't require the same amount of strength you need to dead lift it. You don't need to lift the vehicle off the ground to flip it. assuming this was canon at most it would mean a spartan in armor could lift 33 metric tons or 11 metric tons out of armor. 11 tons alone beat out some of the best showing for spartan strength in armor out there.

What i use as a basis for how strong they are is this Fight scene. Spartan Cal-141 v.s. Brute Chieftain Halo legends. Her being able to stop the Chieftain's downward swing with one arm is a very good strength showing. Brutes are from a planet 2x the gravity of earth. They weight about 1200 pounds and are based on both Gorillas and Rhinos. Gorillas have been able to lift up to 1800 pounds which is more than 5 times their average body weight of 350 pounds. Add those numbers to a Brute and they should be able to as least dead lift 6000 pounds. Now add that strength as well as most of their body weight into a single downward swing. A Spartan could stop that with one arm in Mark 4... she didn't even stop it with her body backing her arm. She stopped it purely with nothing but her arm strength. Only after stopping it did she step in front of the brute.

Snockooz wrote:

EvilKeny28 wrote:

Yeah that's always confused me too.
A few months after augmentation the Spartan 2s were said to be able to run at speeds exceeding 55 km/h or 34.2 mph; Kelly was said to be able to run even faster.
John in Mark 5 with Cortana was able to run around 105 km/h or 65.2 mph. (I assume Cortana released the suits safety limits similar to the Sprint armour ability).
Kelly in Gen 2 armour is capable of running in excess of 65 km/h or 40.4 mph.
I assume the main reason why the suits don't enhance the running speed of the Spartans is because of the strain on bodies especially their tendons (even augmented humans have limits).
This might also be the reason why Gen 2 doesn't enhance Spartan 2s as much as Spartan 4s, because of the safety limits.

What I always thought was the reason his tendons tore was more because the anti tank missile and not because of how fast he was running. However after see the new armors thruster capabilities I believe i was wrong. You can only make a body part move so fast before it starts taking damage from it. Gen 2 gets around this by not making them run faster but give them the momentum to leap or bound far distances through the suit. The Spartan Locke armor trailer for halo 5 shows us that they can do this continuously. I remember someone calcing the speed to be 70mph or around that I think. I don't remember where that was posted though.

MajorCurryBread wrote:

We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.

While The quote that they can lift 3x their body weight isn't wrong I think using it as that basis for how strong Spartans are unarmored is wrong. Keep in mind that was right after they got augmented, they were still only 14 at the time. I may not be a spartan but i know for a fact that i can could lift a significantly high percentage of my body weight when I was 18 than when I was 14. Also Mendez stated that they would only get faster as they adjusted to their augmentations. While this isn't talking about strength i don't see why only their speed would increase as running requires muscle strength just like lifting.

Also them flipping a Tank isn't canon and even if it was flipping a tank or any vehicle for that mater wouldn't require the same amount of strength you need to dead lift it. You don't need to lift the vehicle off the ground to flip it. assuming this was canon at most it would mean a spartan in armor could lift 33 metric tons or 11 metric tons out of armor. 11 tons alone beat out some of the best showing for spartan strength in armor out there.

What i use as a basis for how strong they are is this Fight scene. Spartan Cal-141 v.s. Brute Chieftain Halo legends. Her being able to stop the Chieftain's downward swing with one arm is a very good strength showing. Brutes are from a planet 2x the gravity of earth. They weight about 1200 pounds and are based on both Gorillas and Rhinos. Gorillas have been able to lift up to 1800 pounds which is more than 5 times their average body weight of 350 pounds. Add those numbers to a Brute and they should be able to as least dead lift 6000 pounds. Now add that strength as well as most of their body weight into a single downward swing. A Spartan could stop that with one arm in Mark 4... she didn't even stop it with her body backing her arm. She stopped it purely with nothing but her arm strength. Only after stopping it did she step in front of the brute.

I am always very suspicious of fan made calculations because most of the time the animators don't really care about the speed of the Spartan.
I agree with the Tank feat being at best a hyperbole and at worst non canon.
As for Cal's feat, while impressive, you have to remember that the Brute did not use all of his strength in the swing as evidenced by him forcing Cal away right after.
Mendez's statement is flawed and should not really be used to calculate adult Spartan strength. The problem comes from the fact that he says their weight is almost twice the norm and yet Chief only weighs 130 kg. So when you calculate we get 390 kg lift which is something a normal human can do.

EvilKeny28 wrote:

I am always very suspicious of fan made calculations because most of the time the animators don't really care about the speed of the Spartan.
I agree with the Tank feat being at best a hyperbole and at worst non canon.
As for Cal's feat, while impressive, you have to remember that the Brute did not use all of his strength in the swing as evidenced by him forcing Cal away right after.
Mendez's statement is flawed and should not really be used to calculate adult Spartan strength. The problem comes from the fact that he says their weight is almost twice the norm and yet Chief only weighs 130 kg. So when you calculate we get 390 kg lift which is something a normal human can do.

When come to showings like the locke trailer which was made purely to show off the new spartan abilities we can it can.

Watch it again and pay close attention to what he does to force her off. He angles his swing so it is no long pointed downward and is instead more of a batting swing which push her off her feet. The only reason he would do this is so she would no longer have the ground as leverage. He wasnt able to push her down but he could lift her off the ground. This tells me that he couldnt beat her in terms of raw stength.

Yeah i never understood that. There are football player that way more and the arn't 6f 10in, that dont have alloy plated bones, and they dont have muscles twice a dense as normal.

EvilKeny28 wrote:

Snockooz wrote:

EvilKeny28 wrote:

I am always very suspicious of fan made calculations because most of the time the animators don't really care about the speed of the Spartan.
I agree with the Tank feat being at best a hyperbole and at worst non canon.
As for Cal's feat, while impressive, you have to remember that the Brute did not use all of his strength in the swing as evidenced by him forcing Cal away right after.
Mendez's statement is flawed and should not really be used to calculate adult Spartan strength. The problem comes from the fact that he says their weight is almost twice the norm and yet Chief only weighs 130 kg. So when you calculate we get 390 kg lift which is something a normal human can do.

When come to showings like the locke trailer which was made purely to show off the new spartan abilities we can it can.

Watch it again and pay close attention to what he does to force her off. He angles his swing so it is no long pointed downward and is instead more of a batting swing which push her off her feet. The only reason he would do this is so she would no longer have the ground as leverage. He wasnt able to push her down but he could lift her off the ground. This tells me that he couldnt beat her in terms of raw stength.

Yeah i never understood that. There are football player that way more and the arn't 6f 10in, that dont have alloy plated bones, and they dont have muscles twice a dense as normal.

What I meant about the trailer is that the animators didn't calculate his speed to be sure what they were doing is canon. Animators almost never check their work in terms of consistency in any kind of media, which is my I often disregard fan calculations especially when they involve a subject already littered with inconsistencies.
What you have to understand is that I do believe that Locke is capable of doing what he did in trailer as Osiris demonstrated similar capabilities in Halo 5 opening cutsene. What I disagree with however, is using a calculation and treating it as fact (not referring to you) when there is no canon source that confirms it. Animation is not always canon due to artistic freedom. For example the fight between Chief and Locke was lore breaking from an animation standpoint as it was far too slow.

So what if he swung like a baseball bat? He still overpowered her, knocked her off her feet and pushed her several feet away. In Canon brutes are much stronger than Spartans in Mark 4 and 5. Halo First Strike, Halo Ghost of Onyx, Halo Wars 2 all demonstrate this. Halo Legends has a lot of artistic freedom and much of it has anime-like qualities. The only time we have seen Spartans being superior to brutes in CQC is in Halo: Thursday War when Naomi in mark 7 kills a brute with a single uppercut, and in Halo Wars 2 when Jerome in Mark 4 Gen 2 hybrid takes on several brutes with hammers in close combat.

Master Chief should weigh close to 200 kg. He is 6 ft 10, has enlarged muscles and bones, denser muscles and ceramic bone coating. Apparently his weigh used to be 180 kg before it was retconned to 130 kg.
180 x 3= 540 kg. The current record today is 500 kg, so this would make John stronger than the strongest man alive without training to be a heavyweighter himself.

Doesn’t matter if they calc it. One thing about animations is, assuming the animator is good at their job, it will be the most accurate depiction of what the animator wanted to show. In contrast with live action, there is only some much you can do with real people and a camera(which is why i will never take the MC vs Locke fight as canon for their abilities). When it comes to inconsistencies either A. you just take the most recent Feat, B. you use the feat that is the most consistent C. a combination of both. or D. establish different tiers for the different feats(this one only really works in vs battles).
“Animation is not always canon due to artistic freedom” what artistic freedom? When 343 was Making The Spartan locke armor trailer the entire point was to show off Spartan abilities and what they can do. With Halo legend 343 was overseeing the entire production the only Artistic freedom was in the art style. When a studio was hired to animate something they show the people who hired them many many early drafters and of the animation. This is you insure the employer’s vision and the final animation are as close to the same as possible.

Look at it this ways. Say you have dumbbell that weighs 40 pounds. You place it on the ground standing it upright. If you put your hand on it and tried to force it down neither you nor I would ever be able to bend it downward. However we are both able picking it up and we could both throw it or knock it over. The same thing is happening in this scene. A Spartan only weighs about 1000lb a weight brutes have consistently shown being able to lift. When the brute is trying to force the spartan down she has the ground beneath her supporting her. The brute doesn’t have the strength to force her down or force her into the ground. There for the brutes only option out of this scenario is to throw her something she cant counter with superior strength alone. She had nothing holdin her to the ground and the brute is far to large and heavy for her to counter with her own weight. If for instance They were in a metal room and the Mark 4 had the magnetic boots that gen 2 has the brute would never have “overpowered her” has he can not beat her in raw strength.