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Spartan 2 unarmoured strength

OP EvilKeny28

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Snockooz wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Snockooz wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
I am always very suspicious of fan made calculations because most of the time the animators don't really care about the speed of the Spartan.
I agree with the Tank feat being at best a hyperbole and at worst non canon.
As for Cal's feat, while impressive, you have to remember that the Brute did not use all of his strength in the swing as evidenced by him forcing Cal away right after.
Mendez's statement is flawed and should not really be used to calculate adult Spartan strength. The problem comes from the fact that he says their weight is almost twice the norm and yet Chief only weighs 130 kg. So when you calculate we get 390 kg lift which is something a normal human can do.
When come to showings like the locke trailer which was made purely to show off the new spartan abilities we can it can.

Watch it again and pay close attention to what he does to force her off. He angles his swing so it is no long pointed downward and is instead more of a batting swing which push her off her feet. The only reason he would do this is so she would no longer have the ground as leverage. He wasnt able to push her down but he could lift her off the ground. This tells me that he couldnt beat her in terms of raw stength.

Yeah i never understood that. There are football player that way more and the arn't 6f 10in, that dont have alloy plated bones, and they dont have muscles twice a dense as normal.
What I meant about the trailer is that the animators didn't calculate his speed to be sure what they were doing is canon. Animators almost never check their work in terms of consistency in any kind of media, which is my I often disregard fan calculations especially when they involve a subject already littered with inconsistencies.
What you have to understand is that I do believe that Locke is capable of doing what he did in trailer as Osiris demonstrated similar capabilities in Halo 5 opening cutsene. What I disagree with however, is using a calculation and treating it as fact (not referring to you) when there is no canon source that confirms it. Animation is not always canon due to artistic freedom. For example the fight between Chief and Locke was lore breaking from an animation standpoint as it was far too slow.

So what if he swung like a baseball bat? He still overpowered her, knocked her off her feet and pushed her several feet away. In Canon brutes are much stronger than Spartans in Mark 4 and 5. Halo First Strike, Halo Ghost of Onyx, Halo Wars 2 all demonstrate this. Halo Legends has a lot of artistic freedom and much of it has anime-like qualities. The only time we have seen Spartans being superior to brutes in CQC is in Halo: Thursday War when Naomi in mark 7 kills a brute with a single uppercut, and in Halo Wars 2 when Jerome in Mark 4 Gen 2 hybrid takes on several brutes with hammers in close combat.

Master Chief should weigh close to 200 kg. He is 6 ft 10, has enlarged muscles and bones, denser muscles and ceramic bone coating. Apparently his weigh used to be 180 kg before it was retconned to 130 kg.
180 x 3= 540 kg. The current record today is 500 kg, so this would make John stronger than the strongest man alive without training to be a heavyweighter himself.
Doesn’t matter if they calc it. One thing about animations is, assuming the animator is good at their job, it will be the most accurate depiction of what the animator wanted to show. In contrast with live action, there is only some much you can do with real people and a camera(which is why i will never take the MC vs Locke fight as canon for their abilities). When it comes to inconsistencies either A. you just take the most recent Feat, B. you use the feat that is the most consistent C. a combination of both. or D. establish different tiers for the different feats(this one only really works in vs battles).
“Animation is not always canon due to artistic freedom” what artistic freedom? When 343 was Making The Spartan locke armor trailer the entire point was to show off Spartan abilities and what they can do. With Halo legend 343 was overseeing the entire production the only Artistic freedom was in the art style. When a studio was hired to animate something they show the people who hired them many many early drafters and of the animation. This is you insure the employer’s vision and the final animation are as close to the same as possible.

Look at it this ways. Say you have dumbbell that weighs 40 pounds. You place it on the ground standing it upright. If you put your hand on it and tried to force it down neither you nor I would ever be able to bend it downward. However we are both able picking it up and we could both throw it or knock it over. The same thing is happening in this scene. A Spartan only weighs about 1000lb a weight brutes have consistently shown being able to lift. When the brute is trying to force the spartan down she has the ground beneath her supporting her. The brute doesn’t have the strength to force her down or force her into the ground. There for the brutes only option out of this scenario is to throw her something she cant counter with superior strength alone. She had nothing holdin her to the ground and the brute is far to large and heavy for her to counter with her own weight. If for instance They were in a metal room and the Mark 4 had the magnetic boots that gen 2 has the brute would never have “overpowered her” has he can not beat her in raw strength.
My point about the artistic freedom is that Halo Legends is full of anime style art, and if you have watched anime you would know that a lot of scenes are exaggerated. While Halo Legends, for the most part, doesn't seem to do this there is a lot of artistic freedom that is used in many of the stories such as character design. In the Babysitter so many characters have anime hair, which in a military setting would never happen.
This is a moot point though, as if we are talking about consistency then Cal's feat is not consistant with other showings of brutes overpowering Spartans such as Halo First Strike, Halo Ghost of Onyx, Halo Wars 2, Halo Retribution.
Halo the Babysiter is the only material in which a Spartan (in Mark 4) is able to match a brute in terms of strength, and even then the scene still implies that the brute is stronger but that the Spartan is faster and more skilled.
In fall of reach, chief beats three adult marines to death, by accident, it takes him one or two punches,
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Throughout Halo, Spartan 2 strength seems to be inconsistently depicted.
From kicking a Mjolnir Mark 1 operator 8 metres away, to being out of breath lifting 300 kg containers.
According to Mendez Spartan 2s (at age 14) could lift 3 times with weight (which was almost double the norm).
This would mean that John at 130 kg could only lift 390 kg, which isn't even super human.

What do you all think about this?
well, one of the strongest spartan IIs, soren, right after augmentation, without any armor managed to punch a man clear across a room of unknown size, punch through a reinforced metal wall, twice actually, break out of restraints built to hold other spartans WHICH WORKED ON EVERYONE ELSE and do a number of other things
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Throughout Halo, Spartan 2 strength seems to be inconsistently depicted.
From kicking a Mjolnir Mark 1 operator 8 metres away, to being out of breath lifting 300 kg containers.
According to Mendez Spartan 2s (at age 14) could lift 3 times with weight (which was almost double the norm).
This would mean that John at 130 kg could only lift 390 kg, which isn't even super human.

What do you all think about this?
well, one of the strongest spartan IIs, soren, right after augmentation, without any armor managed to punch a man clear across a room of unknown size, punch through a reinforced metal wall, twice actually, break out of restraints built to hold other spartans WHICH WORKED ON EVERYONE ELSE and do a number of other things
We can't use Soren as a basis of Spartan 2 strength for obvious reasons. The augmentations badly deformed his body: one leg is more or less normal, if a little bowed and twisted and the other is severely gnarled and about six inches shorter. His arms are incredibly muscular, painfully so, giving him the greatest upper body strength of any Spartan, and the fingers of one hand are twisted and bowed, functioning more like a pincer or claw.
Simply put he is a freak, with strength surpassing (to a certain extent) that of normal Spartans.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Where does the out of breath lifting containers come from?

The main one that gets me is when Halsey survive being punched by Lucy, gets my goat that does.
It comes from the Kilo 5 trilogy, Glasslands I think (I don't have the book on my right now so I cannot verify). Naomi is out of armour and lifting containers around.

As for Lucy, yeah that scene is a bit dumb. The fact that she wasn't in MJOLNIR and maybe held back could explain it. Lucy is also potentially not that strong for a Spartan.
Inconsistencies all around!
Well Lucy at the time was a teenage Spartan 3.
In fall of reach, chief beats three adult marines to death, by accident, it takes him one or two punches,
AND He was only 14 I believe.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Where does the out of breath lifting containers come from?

The main one that gets me is when Halsey survive being punched by Lucy, gets my goat that does.
It comes from the Kilo 5 trilogy, Glasslands I think (I don't have the book on my right now so I cannot verify). Naomi is out of armour and lifting containers around.

As for Lucy, yeah that scene is a bit dumb. The fact that she wasn't in MJOLNIR and maybe held back could explain it. Lucy is also potentially not that strong for a Spartan.
Inconsistencies all around!
Well Lucy at the time was a teenage Spartan 3.
Teenage Spartan 3 that can still beat Sangheili in CQC.
Besides as of Ghost of Onyx Lucy is 19 years old. She is basically the same age that Noble 6 was in Halo Reach.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
smasher555 wrote:
We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.
Theoretically you are right.
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.
I think that makes most sense.

One thing that has always irked me from Nylunds' days is the fact that Mjolnir doesn't improve, on paper, a Spartans speed by much.
Yeah that's always confused me too.
A few months after augmentation the Spartan 2s were said to be able to run at speeds exceeding 55 km/h or 34.2 mph; Kelly was said to be able to run even faster.
John in Mark 5 with Cortana was able to run around 105 km/h or 65.2 mph. (I assume Cortana released the suits safety limits similar to the Sprint armour ability).
Kelly in Gen 2 armour is capable of running in excess of 65 km/h or 40.4 mph.
I assume the main reason why the suits don't enhance the running speed of the Spartans is because of the strain on bodies especially their tendons (even augmented humans have limits).
This might also be the reason why Gen 2 doesn't enhance Spartan 2s as much as Spartan 4s, because of the safety limits.
Where did you get John running 65mph??
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
smasher555 wrote:
We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.
Theoretically you are right.
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.
I think that makes most sense.

One thing that has always irked me from Nylunds' days is the fact that Mjolnir doesn't improve, on paper, a Spartans speed by much.
Yeah that's always confused me too.
A few months after augmentation the Spartan 2s were said to be able to run at speeds exceeding 55 km/h or 34.2 mph; Kelly was said to be able to run even faster.
John in Mark 5 with Cortana was able to run around 105 km/h or 65.2 mph. (I assume Cortana released the suits safety limits similar to the Sprint armour ability).
Kelly in Gen 2 armour is capable of running in excess of 65 km/h or 40.4 mph.
I assume the main reason why the suits don't enhance the running speed of the Spartans is because of the strain on bodies especially their tendons (even augmented humans have limits).
This might also be the reason why Gen 2 doesn't enhance Spartan 2s as much as Spartan 4s, because of the safety limits.
Where did you get John running 65mph??
Halo Fall of Reach when John and Cortana test the Mark 5 armour. As he sprints to the finish line he tears his tendons by running at that speed. Its pretty common knowledge.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
smasher555 wrote:
We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.
Theoretically you are right.
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.
I think that makes most sense.

One thing that has always irked me from Nylunds' days is the fact that Mjolnir doesn't improve, on paper, a Spartans speed by much.
Yeah that's always confused me too.
A few months after augmentation the Spartan 2s were said to be able to run at speeds exceeding 55 km/h or 34.2 mph; Kelly was said to be able to run even faster.
John in Mark 5 with Cortana was able to run around 105 km/h or 65.2 mph. (I assume Cortana released the suits safety limits similar to the Sprint armour ability).
Kelly in Gen 2 armour is capable of running in excess of 65 km/h or 40.4 mph.
I assume the main reason why the suits don't enhance the running speed of the Spartans is because of the strain on bodies especially their tendons (even augmented humans have limits).
This might also be the reason why Gen 2 doesn't enhance Spartan 2s as much as Spartan 4s, because of the safety limits.
Where did you get John running 65mph??
Halo Fall of Reach when John and Cortana test the Mark 5 armour. As he sprints to the finish line he tears his tendons by running at that speed. Its pretty common knowledge.
Yeah wasn’t doubting you, just surprised I missed it. I’ve read the book, I just didn’t stop to do the calculation at that point.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
smasher555 wrote:
We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.
Theoretically you are right.
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.
I think that makes most sense.

One thing that has always irked me from Nylunds' days is the fact that Mjolnir doesn't improve, on paper, a Spartans speed by much.
Yeah that's always confused me too.
A few months after augmentation the Spartan 2s were said to be able to run at speeds exceeding 55 km/h or 34.2 mph; Kelly was said to be able to run even faster.
John in Mark 5 with Cortana was able to run around 105 km/h or 65.2 mph. (I assume Cortana released the suits safety limits similar to the Sprint armour ability).
Kelly in Gen 2 armour is capable of running in excess of 65 km/h or 40.4 mph.
I assume the main reason why the suits don't enhance the running speed of the Spartans is because of the strain on bodies especially their tendons (even augmented humans have limits).
This might also be the reason why Gen 2 doesn't enhance Spartan 2s as much as Spartan 4s, because of the safety limits.
Where did you get John running 65mph??
Halo Fall of Reach when John and Cortana test the Mark 5 armour. As he sprints to the finish line he tears his tendons by running at that speed. Its pretty common knowledge.
Yeah wasn’t doubting you, just surprised I missed it. I’ve read the book, I just didn’t stop to do the calculation at that point.
No worries mate.
If you want you can check the Halopedia page Spartan 2 augmentation procedures; it gives information about the performance and effects of the enhancements including the 65mph feat.
Remember that on most of these, There only estimates made by Dr. Halsey. I did some calculations on reaction times and saw that an unarmored Spartan at the age 14 has a reaction time of 2 MILLISECONDS! It only gets better when they age and are in combat situations or have an AI. So even Dr. Halsey is wrong on somethings.
Remember that on most of these, There only estimates made by Dr. Halsey. I did some calculations on reaction times and saw that an unarmored Spartan at the age 14 has a reaction time of 2 MILLISECONDS! It only gets better when they age and are in combat situations or have an AI. So even Dr. Halsey is wrong on somethings.
Actually the 20 millisecond estimate is made by Mendez not Halsey. He also says that their reflexes are even faster during combat (i.e Spartan Time).
The bit about them getting better as they age is very difficult to quantify as we have no way of knowing how much better they actually get.
That said if you add Mjolnir's reaction multiplier of 5, as well as the enhancement that a Smart AI can provide, one can easily just how ridiculous a Spartan's reflexes can actually be.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
smasher555 wrote:
We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.
Theoretically you are right.
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.
I think that makes most sense.

One thing that has always irked me from Nylunds' days is the fact that Mjolnir doesn't improve, on paper, a Spartans speed by much.
Where did you get John running 65mph??
Halo Fall of Reach when John and Cortana test the Mark 5 armour. As he sprints to the finish line he tears his tendons by running at that speed. Its pretty common knowledge.
This seems to be a habitual misconception of the context itself among the community. Let's read the except with more detail:

"Pressure slammed though his body. The Master Chief flew six meters, spinning end over end, and landed flat on his back. He blinked, and saw nothing but blackness. Was he dead? Had he lost? The shield status bar in his heads-up display pulsed weakly. It was completely drained—then it blinked red and slowly started to refill. Blood was spattered across the inside of his helmet and he tasted copper. He stood, his muscles screaming in protest. “Run!” Cortana said. “Before they come back for a look.” The Master Chief got up and ran. As he passed the spot where he had stood to face down the missile, he saw a two-meter-deep crater. He could feel his Achilles tendon tear, but he didn’t slow. He crossed the half-kilometer stretch in seventeen seconds flat and skidded to halt."

As you can see, the tear is strongly in conjunction with the fact he just experienced anguishing pressure throughout his entire body from the Scorpion missile; his musculature in particular immediately experiencing deep-tissue protest. This degree of unrestricted speed is further coupled by this earlier statement of him outrunning antipersonnel napalm grenades, which bursts at speeds up to 110 kilometres (70 miles) per hour with contemporary incendiary reactions.

"The Master Chief got up and ran through the shattered remains of the poles. Napalm and sonic grenades popped around him, but he moved so fast he left the worst of the damage in his wake."
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
smasher555 wrote:
We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.
Theoretically you are right.
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.
I think that makes most sense.

One thing that has always irked me from Nylunds' days is the fact that Mjolnir doesn't improve, on paper, a Spartans speed by much.
Where did you get John running 65mph??
Halo Fall of Reach when John and Cortana test the Mark 5 armour. As he sprints to the finish line he tears his tendons by running at that speed. Its pretty common knowledge.
This seems to be a habitual misconception of the context itself among the community. Let's read the except with more detail:

"Pressure slammed though his body. The Master Chief flew six meters, spinning end over end, and landed flat on his back. He blinked, and saw nothing but blackness. Was he dead? Had he lost? The shield status bar in his heads-up display pulsed weakly. It was completely drained—then it blinked red and slowly started to refill. Blood was spattered across the inside of his helmet and he tasted copper. He stood, his muscles screaming in protest. “Run!” Cortana said. “Before they come back for a look.” The Master Chief got up and ran. As he passed the spot where he had stood to face down the missile, he saw a two-meter-deep crater. He could feel his Achilles tendon tear, but he didn’t slow. He crossed the half-kilometer stretch in seventeen seconds flat and skidded to halt."

As you can see, the tear is strongly in conjunction with the fact he just experienced anguishing pressure throughout his entire body from the Scorpion missile; his musculature in particular immediately experiencing deep-tissue protest. This degree of unrestricted speed is further coupled by this earlier statement of him outrunning antipersonnel napalm grenades, which bursts at speeds up to 110 kilometres (70 miles) per hour with contemporary incendiary reactions.

"The Master Chief got up and ran through the shattered remains of the poles. Napalm and sonic grenades popped around him, but he moved so fast he left the worst of the damage in his wake."
Did we not have this discussion once before?
Regardless you are quoting a post I made more than a year ago and my opinion on this topic has changed.
My current view on this matter is that there isn't any significant evidence to support either side of the argument as the paragraph can be interpreted one or the other way. The only way to get a definitive answer would be to wait until a similar feat presents itself that supports one view or the other. That or getting an answer from the author of the novel are the only ways we could straighten this out once and for all.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
smasher555 wrote:
We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.
Theoretically you are right.
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.
I think that makes most sense.

One thing that has always irked me from Nylunds' days is the fact that Mjolnir doesn't improve, on paper, a Spartans speed by much.
Where did you get John running 65mph??
Did we not have this discussion once before?
Regardless you are quoting a post I made more than a year ago and my opinion on this topic has changed.
My current view on this matter is that there isn't any significant evidence to support either side of the argument as the paragraph can be interpreted one or the other way. The only way to get a definitive answer would be to wait until a similar feat presents itself that supports one view or the other. That or getting an answer from the author of the novel are the only ways we could straighten this out once and for all.
No, it really can't. It's as objective as you can get before having to directly state why his tendon tore from the strain - are you really willing to disgrace the fact he was meanwhile caught in near-proximity to a missile, powerful enough to crater it's own pressure 2 meters deep into soil at *airburst* as being a symptom? I would be concerned as a writer if I had to spoon-feed every bridging detail without worrying if the reader would stand for the "evidence" or not, because it's as insinuating as one could be without making it sound like an essay on why being battered around by missiles would hamper your athletic ability.

Anyway, here is further proof of this level of speed being a little more than an outlier - Tom-B292 in Gen II MJOLNIR is described in Legacy of Onyx as moving faster than a Warthog:

"Without any more hesitation, they raced out into the recreation yard and spotted Tom sprinting away faster than a Warthog. Gudam huffed just watching him go. “We’re never going to catch him.”"
Legacy of Onyx, page 251 pdf

-

As for a Spartan II's physical unarmoured strength, we do have grounding verification of what a Spartan-IV's musculature is capable of, of which are implied to be inferior due to their lack of extensive augmentations. Despite this, we have several instances of them being described explicitly as capable of tearing apart regular human beings, as well as being strong enough to crush their original skeletal structure had their bones not been grafted:
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Halo: New Blood, page 121 pdf
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Halo: Initiation, pg 32
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Spartan Field Manual, Pg. 24
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Halo: New Blood, page 112 The last part is interesting, as vertical jumping fires the quadriceps which are attached to the femur region of the body. Now we can use a simple calculus to get a look at the force required to crush an adult male's femur, ie a marine's. As you can see here, human males lie at around 141 MPa, give or take 16 or so. Assuming Buck's ODST self was on the higher end of the spectrum, that would make his bones withstand around 155MPa before breaking.

Converting this to PSI for simplicity's sake would make for 22,480 PSI. So, now we just have to find the Cross-sectional area of an adult male's femur averages at around 3cm^2, or .465 square inches - which means we now have a 0.465 coefficient

CS = F ÷ A Compressive Strength = 150 MPa (22,480 PSI) A = Cross-Sectional area (3cm^2) (0.465)

F = A * CS F = .465 * 22,480

= 10,453.2 pounds

Which means if Buck were to crush his original skeleton from merely jumping, that would imply that his legs can exert a combined 20,906.4 pounds, or 9.5 tonnes of force - ten times that of Olympic leg-press standards within that particular muscle grouping. So Spartan IVs are ten times stronger than Olympic athletes, even out of their armor. This aligns quite well with what's implied of how they can outperform ordinary marines by "...a factor of ten or more" while in standard combat gear (Non-powered), As well as Renegade's feat of a Fireteam Apollo member throwing Rion Forge a significant distance hard enough to dislocate her shoulder.

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EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
smasher555 wrote:
We know that an armored spartan II can lift 3 times as much as they can unarmored, and we know that an armored Spartan II can flip a Scorpion. We know that the average Scorpion is 66 metric tons and, based upon the manner in which the Spartans are shown to "flip" vehicles, this would be comparable to a dead-lift. So, 66 tons, divided by the 3 times that the Spartan is said to be able to lift while armored, would mean that they have a 22 metric ton dead-lift while unarmored.
Theoretically you are right.
4) Locke's armour is an advanced prototype designed to be lethal and impress even jaded ONI bureaucrats. Its possible that it is stronger than baseline Gen 2.
I think that makes most sense.

One thing that has always irked me from Nylunds' days is the fact that Mjolnir doesn't improve, on paper, a Spartans speed by much.
Where did you get John running 65mph??
Did we not have this discussion once before?
Regardless you are quoting a post I made more than a year ago and my opinion on this topic has changed.
My current view on this matter is that there isn't any significant evidence to support either side of the argument as the paragraph can be interpreted one or the other way. The only way to get a definitive answer would be to wait until a similar feat presents itself that supports one view or the other. That or getting an answer from the author of the novel are the only ways we could straighten this out once and for all.
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I disagree, there is nothing objective about that paragraph. The fact that it is still being debated to this day is proof enough of that. On that specific point I am going to have to agree to disagree.
That said it is nice to see that you have brought some evidence to back your claim.
Tom's alleged sprint speed has always striked me as odd considering that a warthog's max speed is 125 km/h. This is not only significantly higher than John's own high end sprint, it is also much higher than Kelly's stated speed of an excess of 65 km/h in HERMES armour. I am aware that 'excess' means anywhere beyond that value but no one uses that term if they are taking about something double the original value. Add to the fact that Tom isn't wearing any speed oriented gear nor and AI and the consistency between these feats starts to crumble.
Nice calcs about Spartan 4 strength, yet I still must add that it is repeatedly stated across various media that Spartan 4s are significantly inferior to Spartan 2s physically. Even the Spartan Field Manual claims that Spartan 4s are augmented within an order of magnitude of a Spartan 2. An order of magnitude is a system of classification determined by size typically in powers of ten; this seems to claim that Spartan 2s are 10 times as powerful as Spartan 4s and thus 100 times more powerful than a normal human. And yet we have some material such as Last Light which puts into question how strong a Spartan 2 actually is considering Kurts statement about a Spartan 2 being unable to rip of limbs and crush femurs.
What say you regarding this?
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
I disagree, there is nothing objective about that paragraph. The fact that it is still being debated to this day is proof enough of that. On that specific point I am going to have to agree to disagree.
That said it is nice to see that you have brought some evidence to back your claim.
Tom's alleged sprint speed has always striked me as odd considering that a warthog's max speed is 125 km/h. This is not only significantly higher than John's own high end sprint, it is also much higher than Kelly's stated speed of an excess of 65 km/h in HERMES armour. I am aware that 'excess' means anywhere beyond that value but no one uses that term if they are taking about something double the original value. Add to the fact that Tom isn't wearing any speed oriented gear nor and AI and the consistency between these feats starts to crumble.
Nice calcs about Spartan 4 strength, yet I still must add that it is repeatedly stated across various media that Spartan 4s are significantly inferior to Spartan 2s physically. Even the Spartan Field Manual claims that Spartan 4s are augmented within an order of magnitude of a Spartan 2. An order of magnitude is a system of classification determined by size typically in powers of ten; this seems to claim that Spartan 2s are 10 times as powerful as Spartan 4s and thus 100 times more powerful than a normal human. And yet we have some material such as Last Light which puts into question how strong a Spartan 2 actually is considering Kurts statement about a Spartan 2 being unable to rip of limbs and crush femurs.
What say you regarding this?
Unfortunately, I think you're overestimating how much thought is actually put into analysing the sources themselves by the community. In the time I've spent on and off from this subject and structure of a technical discussion, people first and foremost come in with a strong attachment towards whatever side they're choosing to root for, closing off from whatever else can be interpreted or opposed in this fashion. This tends to make one who is defending the claims to be more aloof with their responses, and it all becomes a big cesspool where nobody gets anything from it, and it's just a clashing of heads, so to speak.

So, it is not surprising that whomever may have been more analytical of the context would be ostracised in these debates. While I can admit I have an inherent preference of which agreements I would prefer to see come through, I've noticed that through debating like this for a year now (sheesh), I sometimes haven't even had the chance to really read what the others were defending, because their own agenda was so hellbent on making my sources look as refutable as possible (perhaps actually allowing some to speak their mind could help, but a few seem to come in with no opposition but the pure intention of downplaying anyway). All in all, it looks to be one big cluserfuck, so I wouldn't give this "community consensus" much reliability.

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Actually, it's very likely within the same ballpark. This is another instance where many are far too ungrounded to even notice certain ingredients that concoct the evidence they're referring to; remember, this 110km/hr speed was stretched over half a kilometer, where at some point of the run he tore his own Achilles tendon and still managed to average out a mean velocity of such speeds. If you were to try finding his peak running speed during this trek, it would easily be in the range of 150km/hr or perhaps even more than 165km/hr (If we were to compare the 500m sprint record time to Usain Bolt's top speed, and assume Spartans are well-rounded in this regard).
Again, this is assuming he didn't tear his Achilles tendon.

The same thing goes for Kelly, where given it states she can manage those speeds "...For extended periods of time", and comparing that to record-breaking marathon Olympians, that would make for a nice ~157km/hr in bursts. Again, assuming Spartans are perfectly balanced between more explosive sprints and endurance.

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This is the most curious source I have come across regarding their level of strength. Though my initial suspicions had me agree with the idea that Frederic was lying to the inspector and later an officer, I later reached out to the author who, in his humble/honest opinion, did not believe it was within their capability to mutilate them as they were - at least until they received MJOLNIR. However this is still considerably outweighed by what we read and have described to us by a comic series, a field manual, and two other book series' in a relatively similar time period with equal canonical status - so yes, it seems odd to have physiologically inferior Spartans easily replicate similar feats over and over again in other narratives. Of course, there still is the possibility of the source being rectonned as Fred's valour in defending the psychological responsibilities of Spartans, which, quite honestly, comes off as a more charming approach that fits more with the collective mood of the story anyway - in my opinion.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
I disagree, there is nothing objective about that paragraph. The fact that it is still being debated to this day is proof enough of that. On that specific point I am going to have to agree to disagree.
That said it is nice to see that you have brought some evidence to back your claim.
Tom's alleged sprint speed has always striked me as odd considering that a warthog's max speed is 125 km/h. This is not only significantly higher than John's own high end sprint, it is also much higher than Kelly's stated speed of an excess of 65 km/h in HERMES armour. I am aware that 'excess' means anywhere beyond that value but no one uses that term if they are taking about something double the original value. Add to the fact that Tom isn't wearing any speed oriented gear nor and AI and the consistency between these feats starts to crumble.
Nice calcs about Spartan 4 strength, yet I still must add that it is repeatedly stated across various media that Spartan 4s are significantly inferior to Spartan 2s physically. Even the Spartan Field Manual claims that Spartan 4s are augmented within an order of magnitude of a Spartan 2. An order of magnitude is a system of classification determined by size typically in powers of ten; this seems to claim that Spartan 2s are 10 times as powerful as Spartan 4s and thus 100 times more powerful than a normal human. And yet we have some material such as Last Light which puts into question how strong a Spartan 2 actually is considering Kurts statement about a Spartan 2 being unable to rip of limbs and crush femurs.
What say you regarding this?
Unfortunately, I think you're overestimating how much thought is actually put into analysing the sources themselves by the community. In the time I've spent on and off from this subject and structure of a technical discussion, people first and foremost come in with a strong attachment towards whatever side they're choosing to root for, closing off from whatever else can be interpreted or opposed in this fashion. This tends to make one who is defending the claims to be more aloof with their responses, and it all becomes a big cesspool where nobody gets anything from it, and it's just a clashing of heads, so to speak.

So, it is not surprising that whomever may have been more analytical of the context would be ostracised in these debates. While I can admit I have an inherent preference of which agreements I would prefer to see come through, I've noticed that through debating like this for a year now (sheesh), I sometimes haven't even had the chance to really read what the others were defending, because their own agenda was so hellbent on making my sources look as refutable as possible (perhaps actually allowing some to speak their mind could help, but a few seem to come in with no opposition but the pure intention of downplaying anyway). All in all, it looks to be one big cluserfuck, so I wouldn't give this "community consensus" much reliability.

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Actually, it's very likely within the same ballpark. This is another instance where many are far too ungrounded to even notice certain ingredients that concoct the evidence they're referring to; remember, this 110km/hr speed was stretched over half a kilometer, where at some point of the run he tore his own Achilles tendon and still managed to average out a mean velocity of such speeds. If you were to try finding his peak running speed during this trek, it would easily be in the range of 150km/hr or perhaps even more than 165km/hr (If we were to compare the 500m sprint record time to Usain Bolt's top speed, and assume Spartans are well-rounded in this regard).
Again, this is assuming he didn't tear his Achilles tendon.

The same thing goes for Kelly, where given it states she can manage those speeds "...For extended periods of time", and comparing that to record-breaking marathon Olympians, that would make for a nice ~157km/hr in bursts. Again, assuming Spartans are perfectly balanced between more explosive sprints and endurance.

-

This is the most curious source I have come across regarding their level of strength. Though my initial suspicions had me agree with the idea that Frederic was lying to the inspector and later an officer, I later reached out to the author who, in his humble/honest opinion, did not believe it was within their capability to mutilate them as they were - at least until they received MJOLNIR. However this is still considerably outweighed by what we read and have described to us by a comic series, a field manual, and two other book series' in a relatively similar time period with equal canonical status - so yes, it seems odd to have physiologically inferior Spartans easily replicate similar feats over and over again in other narratives. Of course, there still is the possibility of the source being rectonned as Fred's valour in defending the psychological responsibilities of Spartans, which, quite honestly, comes off as a more charming approach that fits more with the collective mood of the story anyway - in my opinion.
Belive me I perfectly understand what you mean regarding attachments being formed for a specific side of an argument. I have been guilty of it myself from time to time truth be told. Nowadays I don't frequent Halowaypoint that much, as I mostly spend my time on SpaceBattles as I find the members there to engage in richer and often more analytical discussion regarding many Halo topics. As such my opinions often a formed based on the arguments and evidence provided there; I do seem to recall you having a bit of a back-and-forth with some members on a Halo thread, unless I am mistaken.

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Hmm. I still don't like the way they wrote that sentence about Kelly's speed as it gives off a false sense of lowballing if what you say is true.

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Ah, you actually had an exchange with the author. How very interesting. It seems odd that he would hold such a opinion considering anyone who read The Fall of Reach would get a clear picture regarding the superhuman abilities of the Spartan 2s. It seems ever stranger considering in one of his more recent novel Silent Storm John display a few notable feats of strength that would be considered in the upper end of Spartan strength feats.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Belive me I perfectly understand what you mean regarding attachments being formed for a specific side of an argument. I have been guilty of it myself from time to time truth be told. Nowadays I don't frequent Halowaypoint that much, as I mostly spend my time on SpaceBattles as I find the members there to engage in richer and often more analytical discussion regarding many Halo topics. As such my opinions often a formed based on the arguments and evidence provided there; I do seem to recall you having a bit of a back-and-forth with some members on a Halo thread, unless I am mistaken.

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Hmm. I still don't like the way they wrote that sentence about Kelly's speed as it gives off a false sense of lowballing if what you say is true.

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Ah, you actually had an exchange with the author. How very interesting. It seems odd that he would hold such a opinion considering anyone who read The Fall of Reach would get a clear picture regarding the superhuman abilities of the Spartan 2s. It seems ever stranger considering in one of his more recent novel Silent Storm John display a few notable feats of strength that would be considered in the upper end of Spartan strength feats.
You'd be correct, that was me. I still remember how all of it started - I thought it would be oh so humble and responsible of me if I pointed out how disgraced I was, for one user in particular to blame his unwillingness to contribute his own sources on me (understandable, it can be pretty tedious and boring, but still), as if I was forcing him to conjure them in any fashion (I was way more focused on just giving a general awareness of my findings than anything else); at least, that's how I saw it.

My advice after headbutting for so long is to just let it slide, and remind yourself that being passive in that way makes for far better results than trying to be the hero of the gathering all of the time. I still have had the tendency to immediately get frustrated when seemingly every response has to be some big counterclaim (even if it's rational), but I have at least now stumbled on my own and others' feet enough to notice patterns within that are manageable in the future. Truth be told, it has been a unexpectedly serviceable learning process.

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I wouldn't say that's their intention necessarily. In fact, one of the more recent novels have described their maximum speed over long-distance as being a mere 20km/hr, in contrast to their 55km/hr bursts - during the quite literal adolescent stages of their augmentations. While low, it is both understandable given the more explosive, close quarters function of Spartan units being used more for boarding parties, but it also gives a stronger contrast of Mendez' statement on the sheer scale of their adjustments. If we were to put Kelly's given numbers in the same bracket with a 2.75 coefficient, then that would make her burst speed nearing 180km/hr in comparable scenarios.

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Here is the aforementioned tweet. And yes, Silent Storm's opening chapter certainly shows off a degree of their physical strength. To restate the conditions, Blue Team holds fast against 30 Gs of acceleration in the slingshot manoeuvre by physically grabbing their teammate's thruster-packs for guidance. The column they were chained in was "undulating", meaning that it was waving side-to-side. The Spartan at the back would be experiencing the most torque relative to their bodyweight, in that case - making for a decent counterbalance to what the second to first is experiencing via sheer weight.

Coupled with his 130 kilo frame, John would weigh close to 578 kilograms in his COBALT armor - given how the suit itself weighs 56 kilograms on Seoba's ~0.125G gravity. With that in mind and peppering down the average to 567 for the 4 of them, the Spartan second to John would be holding approximately over 51 tonnes of force with subtle changes of torque -This is a similar number I have derived by their Monolith push in The Fall of Reach. While these numbers may seem outlandish, they do give some weight behind their other striking feats where they punch through MBTs, Pelicans, and even the haulage deck of the Forward Unto Dawn in Halo 3 (Which was notably unscathed by an M12 and later a M808 crashing into it).

To remain on-topic, this would imply unarmoured John as being a ten-tonner in certain translations (as much as I try to avoid the force-multiplier purview, if other franchises are any indicator of how much of an extraction and reliability fiasco that can become).
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