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The Spartan IVs are...

OP Sev808

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Zachu511 wrote:
...A more lax training regimen, dubious recruitment process, ...
I disagree. Augmentation technology had advanced enough that survivability was greatly increased. Results on par, or nearly on par with S-IIs and S-IIIs in terms of pure augmentation. The gap in performance comes from genetic profile in candidates. S-II/III had smaller, more discrete genetic pools, tailored to better performance with augmentation. S-IVs were selected from a wider pool, resulting in decreased performance, with the trade-off of better, weapons, armor, and augmentation. The result is a near peer performance.

In terms of socialization, S-IVs lack some of the discipline of their S-II/III predecessors, but are also less prone to antisocial behaviors with "normal" humans. As all S-IVs are recruited from distinguished combat veterans of the Human-Covenant War, and subjected to a training regimen devised and overseen by surviving S-II/III personnel, later informed by new data from veteran S-IVs, I believe that S-IVs represent a potent force multiplier, particularly noting again, the higher numbers of them allowed by greater survivability in augmentation.

They are a generation of soldiers that literally grew up on Spartan II propaganda and were suddenly given the chance to be "just like the Chief".
To me, what is more interesting is the way many S-IV operators adopt social mannerisms and terminology consistent with surviving S-II/III personnel, often (but not always) independent of actual contact with said personnel, indicative, as you say, of the suffusion into the S-IV personnel of SPARTAN iconagraphy and legend at a cultural level for a generation of Humanity. That's a powerful sociocultural motivator to a generation quickly finding itself preparing for it's own great campaign.
I was always under the impression that S-IVs reach SII/III parity thanks to their GEN2 armor rather than their augmentations. But you might be right, and the differences in performance could be chalked up to the SII/SIII more limited gene pool.

I do agree that S-IV are far more personable than their predecessors, but I think that's a double edged sword. Sure, the SII/SIII training made for a single-minded, mission focused outlook that made interactions with non-Spartans difficult, but it also allowed for indoctrination that made Spartans from those programs almost unshakeably loyal to the UNSC. S-IV recruits, on the other hand, are grown adults that bring their pre-existing beliefs and biases. Most of the time, you'll get your Sarah Palmers or Jameson Lockes, but you are also likely to get your occassional...
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...and that's a huge problem. The UNSC has never faced Inssurections backed up by supersoldiers. Still, I don't want to give the false impression that I dislike the S-IVs. I think they are the best option for a postwar UNSC, and I love how their more diverse background (ODSTs, Marines, Army, SII/SIII veteran involvement) makes for some great stories.
Well, you're not entirely wrong. The augmentations for IVs were somewhat less effective, but much less dangerous to the augmentee. The armor/munitions made up the gap, I should think.

And you're 100% correct with the socialization aspect leading to massively increased elements of subversion/treachery within S-IVs. I wonder, what effect the lack of a Covenant type enemy, a perceived existential threat has on these divisions in S-IV mentality. And to be fair, while there are more instances of insubordination, etc. with IVs, there are also many more IVs in service - so the relative percentage is still quite low.
Zachu511 wrote:
...A more lax training regimen, dubious recruitment process, ...
I disagree. Augmentation technology had advanced enough that survivability was greatly increased. Results on par, or nearly on par with S-IIs and S-IIIs in terms of pure augmentation. The gap in performance comes from genetic profile in candidates. S-II/III had smaller, more discrete genetic pools, tailored to better performance with augmentation. S-IVs were selected from a wider pool, resulting in decreased performance, with the trade-off of better, weapons, armor, and augmentation. The result is a near peer performance.

In terms of socialization, S-IVs lack some of the discipline of their S-II/III predecessors, but are also less prone to antisocial behaviors with "normal" humans. As all S-IVs are recruited from distinguished combat veterans of the Human-Covenant War, and subjected to a training regimen devised and overseen by surviving S-II/III personnel, later informed by new data from veteran S-IVs, I believe that S-IVs represent a potent force multiplier, particularly noting again, the higher numbers of them allowed by greater survivability in augmentation.

They are a generation of soldiers that literally grew up on Spartan II propaganda and were suddenly given the chance to be "just like the Chief".
To me, what is more interesting is the way many S-IV operators adopt social mannerisms and terminology consistent with surviving S-II/III personnel, often (but not always) independent of actual contact with said personnel, indicative, as you say, of the suffusion into the S-IV personnel of SPARTAN iconagraphy and legend at a cultural level for a generation of Humanity. That's a powerful sociocultural motivator to a generation quickly finding itself preparing for it's own great campaign.
Regarding the socialization, Scruggs was I believe the first S-IV to turn traitor, not including Zane, she was nuts straight from the beginning.
Sev808 wrote:
Zachu511 wrote:
...A more lax training regimen, dubious recruitment process, ...
I disagree. Augmentation technology had advanced enough that survivability was greatly increased. Results on par, or nearly on par with S-IIs and S-IIIs in terms of pure augmentation. The gap in performance comes from genetic profile in candidates. S-II/III had smaller, more discrete genetic pools, tailored to better performance with augmentation. S-IVs were selected from a wider pool, resulting in decreased performance, with the trade-off of better, weapons, armor, and augmentation. The result is a near peer performance.

In terms of socialization, S-IVs lack some of the discipline of their S-II/III predecessors, but are also less prone to antisocial behaviors with "normal" humans. As all S-IVs are recruited from distinguished combat veterans of the Human-Covenant War, and subjected to a training regimen devised and overseen by surviving S-II/III personnel, later informed by new data from veteran S-IVs, I believe that S-IVs represent a potent force multiplier, particularly noting again, the higher numbers of them allowed by greater survivability in augmentation.

They are a generation of soldiers that literally grew up on Spartan II propaganda and were suddenly given the chance to be "just like the Chief".
To me, what is more interesting is the way many S-IV operators adopt social mannerisms and terminology consistent with surviving S-II/III personnel, often (but not always) independent of actual contact with said personnel, indicative, as you say, of the suffusion into the S-IV personnel of SPARTAN iconagraphy and legend at a cultural level for a generation of Humanity. That's a powerful sociocultural motivator to a generation quickly finding itself preparing for it's own great campaign.
Regarding the socialization, Scruggs was I believe the first S-IV to turn traitor, not including Zane, she was nuts straight from the beginning.
Chronologically, Rudolf Schein and Mickey from Alpha-Nine defected from the UNSC earlier than Scruggs.

Insurgent sympathies is a potential drawback of pooling from cognitively developed adults with pre-established notions of ideology and conviction. Dangers that they present as super-humanly augmented veterans of the most gruelling sacrificial war in humanity's history with some of our most effective field technology being purloined for cutthroat visionaries cannot go unspoken. Spartan-IVs do represent a logical progression of the Spartan program. But in the program, with the widening of candidate pools comes challenges not seen since the ORION days.

Background circumstances aside, I can't see why someone would be inclined normally to handpick a Spartan-IV team over the possibility of having IIs or IIIs for operations. Both of those generations were bequeathed with the highest quality training and inculcation available. Like it or not, they were genetically advantaged prior to the augmentations. All of the missions and skirmishes they've survived has only refined their skills and effectiveness more. This isn't to put down the SIV candidates underwent as regular soldiers. I think Buck's analogy that compares the increased familiarising and humanisation of the Spartans with comparisons to Greek mythology was a good way of summarising the differences between the generations.
Their cool but still weak. If like to see a stronger spartan 5 similar to a spartan 2 or 3 in infinite
I think with the SIV's, 343 was trying to make them more inclusive, more relatable, etc. so that more people could self "identify" as a Spartan... the problem with that is that the mystique of the SII's and SIII's was, at least partly, specifically the fact that they were so rare and so elite, the best of the best of the best. People liked that about them. Then, when the SIV's behave as more "normal" human beings (complete with a sex drive, even) it deconstructs that Spartan mystique even further.
Bad, I don't like them, the 2s are cooler, I mean what Spartan would wear a unicorn helmet!?!?!
Grossly misrepresented. Spartans are supposed to be deadly war machines, even if the new Spartan-IV generation is from volunteers as opposed to child conscripts they are still prior military service. They should very rarely be the cocky sons of -Yoinks!- that they're commonly represented as (specifically referencing Spartan Ops).
I think with the SIV's, 343 was trying to make them more inclusive, more relatable, etc. so that more people could self "identify" as a Spartan... the problem with that is that the mystique of the SII's and SIII's was, at least partly, specifically the fact that they were so rare and so elite, the best of the best of the best. People liked that about them. Then, when the SIV's behave as more "normal" human beings (complete with a sex drive, even) it deconstructs that Spartan mystique even further.
They aren’t supposed to be like the previous Spartan generations. Then being normal people is entirely the point. The UNSC needs soldiers like that, not formerly kidnapped kids indoctrinated to serve Earth and all her colonies (IIs) or indoctrinated war orphans made simply to die and buy time for humanity (IIIs). Copy-pasting to IIs or IIIs and passing them off as IVs would be entirely pointless.
Grossly misrepresented. Spartans are supposed to be deadly war machines, even if the new Spartan-IV generation is from volunteers as opposed to child conscripts they are still prior military service. They should very rarely be the cocky sons of -Yoinks!- that they're commonly represented as (specifically referencing Spartan Ops).
really, the only cocky IVs are palmer, DeMarco, and Madsen. and they're only 3 of 500 spartans, its sucks that they are the ones we were introduced to to represent the IVs
Grossly misrepresented. Spartans are supposed to be deadly war machines, even if the new Spartan-IV generation is from volunteers as opposed to child conscripts they are still prior military service. They should very rarely be the cocky sons of -Yoinks!- that they're commonly represented as (specifically referencing Spartan Ops).
really, the only cocky IVs are palmer, DeMarco, and Madsen. and they're only 3 of 500 spartans, its sucks that they are the ones we were introduced to to represent the IVs
I would love to talk about how much we all hate Palmer, and if I had to pick a favorite lV it would be buck, only because he was a big part of a previous game, but even still, he doesn't feel like the same person, however that may be because he transitioned from odst, to a Spartan, he and vale are the only Spartan 4s I like
Grossly misrepresented. Spartans are supposed to be deadly war machines, even if the new Spartan-IV generation is from volunteers as opposed to child conscripts they are still prior military service. They should very rarely be the cocky sons of -Yoinks!- that they're commonly represented as (specifically referencing Spartan Ops).
really, the only cocky IVs are palmer, DeMarco, and Madsen. and they're only 3 of 500 spartans, its sucks that they are the ones we were introduced to to represent the IVs
Pretty much an accurate overview of what the issues with their representation are by Installation 00.
Grossly misrepresented. Spartans are supposed to be deadly war machines, even if the new Spartan-IV generation is from volunteers as opposed to child conscripts they are still prior military service. They should very rarely be the cocky sons of -Yoinks!- that they're commonly represented as (specifically referencing Spartan Ops).
really, the only cocky IVs are palmer, DeMarco, and Madsen. and they're only 3 of 500 spartans, its sucks that they are the ones we were introduced to to represent the IVs
Pretty much an accurate overview of what the issues with their representation are by Installation 00.
ive seen this, what I want to see more of from the IV's are more Gabriel Thorne, Tedra Grant, Edward Davis, and fireteam Crimson type characters because they are a better representation of the S-IV branch than Palmer, Demarco and Madsen
Grossly misrepresented. Spartans are supposed to be deadly war machines, even if the new Spartan-IV generation is from volunteers as opposed to child conscripts they are still prior military service. They should very rarely be the cocky sons of -Yoinks!- that they're commonly represented as (specifically referencing Spartan Ops).
really, the only cocky IVs are palmer, DeMarco, and Madsen. and they're only 3 of 500 spartans, its sucks that they are the ones we were introduced to to represent the IVs
Pretty much an accurate overview of what the issues with their representation are by Installation 00.
ive seen this, what I want to see more of from the IV's are more Gabriel Thorne, Tedra Grant, Edward Davis, and fireteam Crimson type characters because they are a better representation of the S-IV branch than Palmer, Demarco and Madsen
Definitely. The Spartan-IV's that cleared the exterior of the room Lasky and Palmer were in on the mission Infinity (Halo 4) are what I want to see in the future in regards to mannerisms.
Palmer isn’t even that bad. Yes, I’m Spartan Ops we see her as laser-focused on having things be her way and lacking in critical thinking. We also see her fail big time in letting Halsey and Jul get away. She gets further humbled throughout Halo: Escalation.

She really isn’t a bad character. Perhaps she’s unlikeable. Perhaps she’s rough around the edges. That could very well be how she was made to be written. You don’t have to like her; I wouldn’t put her on my top 10, but that doesn’t make her badly written by any stretch.
Grossly misrepresented. Spartans are supposed to be deadly war machines, even if the new Spartan-IV generation is from volunteers as opposed to child conscripts they are still prior military service. They should very rarely be the cocky sons of -Yoinks!- that they're commonly represented as (specifically referencing Spartan Ops).
really, the only cocky IVs are palmer, DeMarco, and Madsen. and they're only 3 of 500 spartans, its sucks that they are the ones we were introduced to to represent the IVs
Pretty much an accurate overview of what the issues with their representation are by Installation 00.
ive seen this, what I want to see more of from the IV's are more Gabriel Thorne, Tedra Grant, Edward Davis, and fireteam Crimson type characters because they are a better representation of the S-IV branch than Palmer, Demarco and Madsen
Definitely. The Spartan-IV's that cleared the exterior of the room Lasky and Palmer were in on the mission Infinity (Halo 4) are what I want to see in the future in regards to mannerisms.
I know right, them and fireteam crimson
Palmer isn’t even that bad. Yes, I’m Spartan Ops we see her as laser-focused on having things be her way and lacking in critical thinking. We also see her fail big time in letting Halsey and Jul get away. She gets further humbled throughout Halo: Escalation.

She really isn’t a bad character. Perhaps she’s unlikeable. Perhaps she’s rough around the edges. That could very well be how she was made to be written. You don’t have to like her; I wouldn’t put her on my top 10, but that doesn’t make her badly written by any stretch.
I dunno, sounds like you are saying she is badly written, a person that lacks critical thinking and fails at simple tasks and is rough around the edges, doesn't sound congruent to being commander of an elite force meant to be the first and last line of defence against the worst scum in the universe.
I could see it if we went on a detailed journey with her through boot as a human and she was shaped into a competent ODST then became an SIV, instead we get her written as being incompetent as an ODST and an SIV but the universe shines on her somehow and doesn't rebuke her failure with the death it would most others...

...and that I feel is the general writing style we got with all the SIV's pretty much. I have no issues with the concept of the IV's, makes sense and is very interesting - they were just written by incompetents thus the forward facing IV's we see are pretty much trash, especially when we have a wealth of media with the II' & III's that is well written to compare against.
Palmer isn’t even that bad. Yes, I’m Spartan Ops we see her as laser-focused on having things be her way and lacking in critical thinking. We also see her fail big time in letting Halsey and Jul get away. She gets further humbled throughout Halo: Escalation.

She really isn’t a bad character. Perhaps she’s unlikeable. Perhaps she’s rough around the edges. That could very well be how she was made to be written. You don’t have to like her; I wouldn’t put her on my top 10, but that doesn’t make her badly written by any stretch.
I dunno, sounds like you are saying she is badly written, a person that lacks critical thinking and fails at simple tasks and is rough around the edges, doesn't sound congruent to being commander of an elite force meant to be the first and last line of defence against the worst scum in the universe.
People who assume roles in the military they may not be qualified for but were given for perplexing reasons? Never heard of that happening before.

That isn’t bad writing. But I’ve argued these things for years now and people just default to bad writing towards a character they don’t like. Enjoy the feedback loop.
Palmer isn’t even that bad. Yes, I’m Spartan Ops we see her as laser-focused on having things be her way and lacking in critical thinking. We also see her fail big time in letting Halsey and Jul get away. She gets further humbled throughout Halo: Escalation.

She really isn’t a bad character. Perhaps she’s unlikeable. Perhaps she’s rough around the edges. That could very well be how she was made to be written. You don’t have to like her; I wouldn’t put her on my top 10, but that doesn’t make her badly written by any stretch.
I dunno, sounds like you are saying she is badly written, a person that lacks critical thinking and fails at simple tasks and is rough around the edges, doesn't sound congruent to being commander of an elite force meant to be the first and last line of defence against the worst scum in the universe.
I could see it if we went on a detailed journey with her through boot as a human and she was shaped into a competent ODST then became an SIV, instead we get her written as being incompetent as an ODST and an SIV but the universe shines on her somehow and doesn't rebuke her failure with the death it would most others...

...and that I feel is the general writing style we got with all the SIV's pretty much. I have no issues with the concept of the IV's, makes sense and is very interesting - they were just written by incompetents thus the forward facing IV's we see are pretty much trash, especially when we have a wealth of media with the II' & III's that is well written to compare against.
Lol, Palmer has always been incompetent, I actually used to not like the llls either, but now I do and hey at least they can get stuff done
The Spartan IV's are Spartan IV's of course.
Palmer isn’t even that bad. Yes, I’m Spartan Ops we see her as laser-focused on having things be her way and lacking in critical thinking. We also see her fail big time in letting Halsey and Jul get away. She gets further humbled throughout Halo: Escalation.

She really isn’t a bad character. Perhaps she’s unlikeable. Perhaps she’s rough around the edges. That could very well be how she was made to be written. You don’t have to like her; I wouldn’t put her on my top 10, but that doesn’t make her badly written by any stretch.
I dunno, sounds like you are saying she is badly written, a person that lacks critical thinking and fails at simple tasks and is rough around the edges, doesn't sound congruent to being commander of an elite force meant to be the first and last line of defence against the worst scum in the universe.
People who assume roles in the military they may not be qualified for but were given for perplexing reasons? Never heard of that happening before.

That isn’t bad writing. But I’ve argued these things for years now and people just default to bad writing towards a character they don’t like. Enjoy the feedback loop.
You're a very active user, seems like every forum your there, and about the 4s I still think they suck
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