No, it's not fine. And what you just said is exactly the kind of misguided attitude that perpetuates these sort of glaring omissions and keeps the fanbase at large in the dark in regards to Halo's lore and canon.Quote:As a short summary of the significance of his life it's fine, seeing as how the most significant aspects of his life occurred with no other Spartans involved.
Okay hold up. First of all, where do you get the impression that Sam's death was some major impacting force on the Chief? In nearly all of the stories following the Chief, he's hardly mentioned at all; beyond The Fall of Reach, he's only mentioned in Ghosts of Onyx once to establish that Kurt had taken his place. Other than that Sam is hardly ever a factor in anything the Chief ever thinks about. You're artificially inflating his role to support your argument.Quote:No, it's not fine. And what you just said is exactly the kind of misguided attitude that perpetuates these sort of glaring omissions and keeps the fanbase at large in the dark in regards to Halo's lore and canon.Quote:As a short summary of the significance of his life it's fine, seeing as how the most significant aspects of his life occurred with no other Spartans involved.
If 343 wants to expore the Chief more as a character and wants players to think about him as such, how is leaving out 99% of the people that have been involved with him and shared the majority of his life experiences "fine"? How is not even giving Sam's death a mention, a grief that stuck with the Chief his entire life, "fine"? How is not mentioning the Chief's experiences leading his team, the crux of his entire character up to the games, "fine"? There is no good reason for them to completely ignore the Chief's history, particularly in a biographical piece like this one that should be informing people about more than just what happened in the games.
I get that impression since every story that has been told from the Chief's perspective has him reflecting about what happened to Sam in some capacity. Sam's death in 'The Fall of Reach' instilled in John the knowledge that heavy prices would be paid in the coming war, as well as the principle (which would become one of his staple ideologies) of just what was "a life spent versus a life wasted". In 'Ghosts of Onyx' the Chief has all of his squad check their armor thoroughly for fear over what happened to Sam. In 'First Strike' as he's looking over the list of MIA Spartans he stops and thinks of Sam and renews his resolve to keep on fighting. Ergo, yes, Sam's death did haunt him for the rest of his life and it effected him greatly as a leader and as a person. I'm not inflating anything, the actual canon material supports my argument just fine.Quote:Okay hold up. First of all, where do you get the impression that Sam's death was some major impacting force on the Chief? In nearly all of the stories following the Chief, he's hardly mentioned at all; beyond The Fall of Reach, he's only mentioned in Ghosts of Onyx once to establish that Kurt had taken his place. Other than that Sam is hardly ever a factor in anything the Chief ever thinks about. You're artificially inflating his role to support your argument.
So again, you're falling back on the faulty logic that in spite of their training and 30+ years of history together, just because Blue Team wasn't in the games means that they don't even deserve a mention in a biography that is supposed to be providing factual information about the Chief's life and character? The events of the games may be big and bombastic, but they are only a part of what defines the Chief as a person - everything in that regard has largely happened in the EU when he is with his Spartans. And considering the fact that a lot of people still don't know that other Spartan-IIs do indeed exist, how is it not a good time to let people know that? Again, three sentences would be enough and they could certainly fit in comfortably with what was included. The Chief's whole life has practically revolved around the importance of teamwork, and most of that was done with his fellow Spartans, yet in this entry they make it sound like he is literally the only Spartan-II to have ever existed. How is that tying the Chief's story in better with the lore as a whole, or examining his character beyond what we've just seen in the games?Quote:As for the other Blue Team characters, they were an influence on his life indeed, but the most significant aspects of his life occurred in the games, IE: when Blue wasn't around, with other characters beyond them having a larger and more lasting impact on those events than Blue did. They should be mentioned, but Blue Team, while important, exist in a world distinct from the Chief as we currently know him. They could mention Blue Team sure, but that won't give anyone reading the encyclopedia entries who doesn't already know about them any reason to care or any context to go off of beyond "they exist" (Hint: this is the exact problem Destiny has). Unless you want to blow up the Chief's biography to actual encyclopedic lengths, then there isn't much they could do to fit Blue Team comfortably in the point they were trying to get across with his entry, which is to say, a short summary of the significance of his life, not a dissertation on his entire life.
I would like to hope you're right...but seeing as how there's absolutely nothing about Blue Team on Waypoint currently, and that the "link to an additional biography" that could be seen on the Halo Channel preview went to Lasky of all people, I have my doubts. Again, it's the way that every bit of information we're getting about the future of the story and the way 343 is handling it does not reflect at all their promises that "they care about these characters", "the unique nature of the Spartans' relationships is something we want to expand on", and that "we have plans for them" - and that both frustrates and confuses me.Quote:Has anybody considered that maybe Chief's biography, is a single entry based entirely on him, while Blue Team, or other Spartan teams, would have their own entry, separate from Chief? Has anybody considered that thats where Chief, and Blue Team's feats would be discussed?
Of course, this isn't confirmed fact, i'm just raising a possibility that people seem to have overlooked.
Perhaps if you waited until it released, because as i said, you can't really judge from one entry, and we haven't seen the entire encyclopaedia, let alone what the rest of the Halo channel entails, you might see a lot more than what was shown.Quote:I would like to hope you're right...but seeing as how there's absolutely nothing about Blue Team on Waypoint currently, and that the "link to an additional biography" that could be seen on the Halo Channel preview went to Lasky of all people, I have my doubts.
I think this is a very well known fact at this point. Blue Team is all but confirmed to appear in Halo 5, and we know this judging by Fred's appearance in the very first vidoc that 343i showed for the game. You can't say that they don't care much for these characters, either, because they have displayed extensive knowledge of these characters and their origin. The very first scene of Halo 4 shows 6 year old John in his pod after being conscripted into the program. The scanned trailer shows the aftermath of their augmentations, and glimpses into John's past.Quote:Again, it's the way that every bit of information we're getting about the future of the story and the way 343 is handling it does not reflect at all their promises that "they care about these characters", "the unique nature of the Spartan's relationships is something we want to expand on", and that "we have plans for them" - and that both frustrates and confuses me.
Thanks for writing out such a reasonable response, and I appreciate your perspective. Perhaps I am letting my emotions rule me here, but at the same time the question still remains - if they do supposedly have plans for Blue Team, why have we really not seen any build up for them outside of a random, unexplained Fred-cameo and a rather rushed 3 issues of a comic? Locke is getting tons of build up right now, and the Arbiter is being reintroduced as a major player as well. I just really feel like time is running out for a Blue Team introduction...and since I can't voice my concerns to the folks that make the game, discussing these things via the forums is the best I got to try and see if anyone else is having the same frustrations. :\Quote:I think this is a very well known fact at this point. Blue Team is all but confirmed to appear in Halo 5, and we know this judging by Fred's appearance in the very first vidoc that 343i showed for the game. You can't say that they don't care much for these characters, either, because they have displayed extensive knowledge of these characters and their origin. The very first scene of Halo 4 shows 6 year old John in his pod after being conscripted into the program. The scanned trailer shows the aftermath of their augmentations, and glimpses into John's past.
Yes, i understand that some of 343i's choices can be frustrating, and some of their inconsistencies can be laughable. But to say they are careless, and have no understanding of these characters, is a but much. Wait until the thing actually comes out, then rant all you want.
A short film or series (hell, even an animated one) about the Spartans' training and past missions would've been a brilliant way to introduce Blue Team to the masses. I've always been hoping to see more about that aspect of the story anyway. As long as it stays faithful to Nylund that is -- going by 343i's current trends the Spartans would probably spend 90% of the time hating on Halsey.Quote:Thanks for writing out such a reasonable response, and I appreciate your perspective. Perhaps I am letting my emotions rule me here, but at the same time the question still remains - if they do supposedly have plans for Blue Team, why have we really not seen any build up for them outside of a random, unexplained Fred-cameo and a rather rushed 3 issues of a comic? Locke is getting tons of build up right now, and the Arbiter is being reintroduced as a major player as well. I just really feel like time is running out for a Blue Team introduction...and since I can't voice my concerns to the folks that make the game, discussing these things via the forums is the best I got to try and see if anyone else is having the same frustrations. :\Quote:I think this is a very well known fact at this point. Blue Team is all but confirmed to appear in Halo 5, and we know this judging by Fred's appearance in the very first vidoc that 343i showed for the game. You can't say that they don't care much for these characters, either, because they have displayed extensive knowledge of these characters and their origin. The very first scene of Halo 4 shows 6 year old John in his pod after being conscripted into the program. The scanned trailer shows the aftermath of their augmentations, and glimpses into John's past.
Yes, i understand that some of 343i's choices can be frustrating, and some of their inconsistencies can be laughable. But to say they are careless, and have no understanding of these characters, is a but much. Wait until the thing actually comes out, then rant all you want.
Thats more Karen Travis, much less 343i themselves. If SpOps is any indication, there won't be much Halsey bashing from any of the characters save for Palmer. And if there is, hopefully it would be more reasonably contained than the facepalm-worthy Kilo-5.Quote:A short film or series (hell, even an animated one) about the Spartans' training and past missions would've been a brilliant way to introduce Blue Team to the masses. I've always been hoping to see more about that aspect of the story anyway. As long as it stays faithful to Nylund that is -- going by 343i's current trends the Spartans would probably spend 90% of the time hating on Halsey.
Yes, the bio was centered on John's exploits - but still why not at least mention Blue Team, since they took the time and space in that biography to make note of the mission that involved Watts? The Chief certainly didn't do that alone, yet they make it sound like he did. And if Cortana gets to be mentioned in the sections about the events in the games, why omit Blue Team from the sections about his life prior to that? They're still an important part of his history. It just doesn't seem logical to not say one single thing about them.Quote:John's biography was centered around him and his feats. If I remember right the only characters aside him cited were Cortana, Robert Watts and the Didact. So because of that is presumable that 343 is planning erase The Arbiter, Lord Hood, Lasky, Librarian from the Halo story now on ? Blue Team ?
Sorry I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, actually it sounds like trolling to me.
Didn't they do that with "The Package" in Halo Legends?Quote:A short film or series (hell, even an animated one) about the Spartans' training and past missions would've been a brilliant way to introduce Blue Team to the masses. I've always been hoping to see more about that aspect of the story anyway. As long as it stays faithful to Nylund that is -- going by 343i's current trends the Spartans would probably spend 90% of the time hating on Halsey.Quote:Thanks for writing out such a reasonable response, and I appreciate your perspective. Perhaps I am letting my emotions rule me here, but at the same time the question still remains - if they do supposedly have plans for Blue Team, why have we really not seen any build up for them outside of a random, unexplained Fred-cameo and a rather rushed 3 issues of a comic? Locke is getting tons of build up right now, and the Arbiter is being reintroduced as a major player as well. I just really feel like time is running out for a Blue Team introduction...and since I can't voice my concerns to the folks that make the game, discussing these things via the forums is the best I got to try and see if anyone else is having the same frustrations. :\Quote:I think this is a very well known fact at this point. Blue Team is all but confirmed to appear in Halo 5, and we know this judging by Fred's appearance in the very first vidoc that 343i showed for the game. You can't say that they don't care much for these characters, either, because they have displayed extensive knowledge of these characters and their origin. The very first scene of Halo 4 shows 6 year old John in his pod after being conscripted into the program. The scanned trailer shows the aftermath of their augmentations, and glimpses into John's past.
Yes, i understand that some of 343i's choices can be frustrating, and some of their inconsistencies can be laughable. But to say they are careless, and have no understanding of these characters, is a but much. Wait until the thing actually comes out, then rant all you want.
Except for Halo 1, Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo 4, Halo: The Flood (iirc), Escalation, The Halo Graphic Novel, Halo Uprising, The Package, and Palace Hotel. And I recall only one scene in Ghosts of Onyx where the Master Chief is even a character, and they were on ground, not space, so there was no risk of the same thing happening. It was this scene that establishes that Kurt had taken over Sam's position. Even if he does think about what happened to Sam, how does that mean his death haunted him? All it means is that he's got more experience and knows what to check for; that's not some deep traumatic memories coming back to haunt him, that's just a man taking the lessons learned previously and learning from them, IE: common sense.Quote:I get that impression since every story that has been told from the Chief's perspective has him reflecting about what happened to Sam in some capacity. Sam's death in 'The Fall of Reach' instilled in John the knowledge that heavy prices would be paid in the coming war, as well as the principle (which would become one of his staple ideologies) of just what was "a life spent versus a life wasted". In 'Ghosts of Onyx' the Chief has all of his squad check their armor thoroughly for fear over what happened to Sam. In 'First Strike' as he's looking over the list of MIA Spartans he stops and thinks of Sam and renews his resolve to keep on fighting. Ergo, yes, Sam's death did haunt him for the rest of his life and it effected him greatly as a leader and as a person. I'm not inflating anything, the actual canon material supports my argument just fine.Quote:Okay hold up. First of all, where do you get the impression that Sam's death was some major impacting force on the Chief? In nearly all of the stories following the Chief, he's hardly mentioned at all; beyond The Fall of Reach, he's only mentioned in Ghosts of Onyx once to establish that Kurt had taken his place. Other than that Sam is hardly ever a factor in anything the Chief ever thinks about. You're artificially inflating his role to support your argument.
Quote:As for the other Blue Team characters, they were an influence on his life indeed, but the most significant aspects of his life occurred in the games, IE: when Blue wasn't around, with other characters beyond them having a larger and more lasting impact on those events than Blue did. They should be mentioned, but Blue Team, while important, exist in a world distinct from the Chief as we currently know him. They could mention Blue Team sure, but that won't give anyone reading the encyclopedia entries who doesn't already know about them any reason to care or any context to go off of beyond "they exist" (Hint: this is the exact problem Destiny has). Unless you want to blow up the Chief's biography to actual encyclopedic lengths, then there isn't much they could do to fit Blue Team comfortably in the point they were trying to get across with his entry, which is to say, a short summary of the significance of his life, not a dissertation on his entire life.
This isn't about who the chief is as a person, it's about why the Chief matters, a biography about the significant aspects of his, not a character study. Blue Team is significant only internally to the Chief himself, they are not significant externally the accomplishments he's had over his lengthy career. Anyone who isn't a lore buff doesn't know about Blue Team, as such, they have no need to care. If they want the wider audience to know who Blue team is, this short summary of the chief's significance is not the place to do this in, and in no way does this one tiny example indicate anything about the "erasure of Blue Team" or any other overblown nonsense like that. Hell you claim that they hardly acknowledge the existence of other Spartan II's, and that's objectively false because the entire biography up to the point of the Fall of Reach uses the word Spartans in plural and refers to other members of the program by proxy, acknowledging that the Chief was their leader.Quote:So again, you're falling back on the faulty logic that in spite of their training and 30+ years of history together, just because Blue Team wasn't in the games means that they don't even deserve a mention in a biography that is supposed to be providing factual information about the Chief's life and character? The events of the games may be big and bombastic, but they are only a part of what defines the Chief as a person - everything in that regard has largely happened in the EU when he is with his Spartans. And considering the fact that a lot of people still don't know that other Spartan-IIs do indeed exist, how is it not a good time to let people know that? Again, three sentences would be enough and they could certainly fit in comfortably with what was included. The Chief's whole life has practically revolved around the importance of teamwork, and most of that was done with his fellow Spartans, yet in this entry they make it sound like he is literally the only Spartan-II to have ever existed. How is that tying the Chief's story in better with the lore as a whole, or examining his character beyond what we've just seen in the games?
Quote:Except for Halo 1, Halo 2, Halo 3, Halo 4, Halo: The Flood (iirc), Escalation, The Halo Graphic Novel, Halo Uprising, The Package, and Palace Hotel. And I recall only one scene in Ghosts of Onyx where the Master Chief is even a character, and they were on ground, not space, so there was no risk of the same thing happening. It was this scene that establishes that Kurt had taken over Sam's position. Even if he does think about what happened to Sam, how does that mean his death haunted him? All it means is that he's got more experience and knows what to check for; that's not some deep traumatic memories coming back to haunt him, that's just a man taking the lessons learned previously and learning from them, IE: common sense.
The bio states that the Chief "became the most important soldier" during the war (and this is in reference to prior to the events on the Halo), yet fails completely to emphasize that his successes in the field are a direct result of his work with his team. Blue Team is still a huge part of his history, seeing as how 99% of his career was spent with them. Again, I fail to see how it makes sense that they don't get one single specific mention despite the fact that they go to the trouble to talk about the mission to capture Col. Watts - a mission that would have failed if not for Blue Team working together. How does it help people to learn more about the Chief to read a bio that is so limited in it's scope? You're basically trying to defend the same type of game-extended lore separation that Bungie did that got us into this mess in the first place.Quote:This isn't about who the chief is as a person, it's about why the Chief matters, a biography about the significant aspects of his, not a character study. Blue Team is significant only internally to the Chief himself, they are not significant externally the accomplishments he's had over his lengthy career. Anyone who isn't a lore buff doesn't know about Blue Team, as such, they have no need to care. If they want the wider audience to know who Blue team is, this short summary of the chief's significance is not the place to do this in, and in no way does this one tiny example indicate anything about the "erasure of Blue Team" or any other overblown nonsense like that. Hell you claim that they hardly acknowledge the existence of other Spartan II's, and that's objectively false because the entire biography up to the point of the Fall of Reach uses the word Spartans in plural and refers to other members of the program by proxy, acknowledging that the Chief was their leader.
But hay, let's look at the actual content of the Channel preview. Wolfkill tells us that we can pull up the Encyclopedia on whatever we are seeing and get some lore about it. If a user wanted to say, I dunno, know who the other two Spartan II's are in Forward Unto Dawn (the movie they demo'd this with) then bam, they know who Fred, Kelly and by extension Blue are. But this one particular entry wasn't about Blue, it was about Chief and the most significant events of his life in an exceedingly short summary. Blue will seem to have their own entries.
So let's stop with all the doom and gloom people and stop blowing everything out of proportion and have fun again.
I don't get bent out of shape over things I disagree with in Halo because A)There is nothing I can do about it and B) there are more important things in life than a videogame franchise to worry about. Sue me, getting worked up over a piece of entertainment is, in my opinion, a waste of energy and contrary to what it exists for. So I'm patient. I'll acknowledge what I don't like when needed (IE Saber getting killed in a forum post was horse -Yoink-) but I don't let it bother me. I still love the universe and I look forward to where it's going; and I come to this community, and by extension this universe, to escape the crap in the real world and have some fun for awhile.Quote:Quote:
Except those pieces of story are not told via the Cheif's internal monologue like 'The Fall of Reach' and 'First Strike' are.
Probably because the last time his name is even mentioned with regards to the Chief was in a novel that came out 7 years ago, in reference to a time in the story when Sam's death was still relatively recent, and to establish why Kurt was on the team. In so far as internally monologuing about Sam's death, Sam hasn't been a factor for 11 years (it's been ages since I read First Strike, but it came out 11 years ago). I do not recall what Chief had to say to himself though about Sam in that novel. All I remember was that this was the novel that establishes his life philosophy concretely, with the sacrifice of Whitcomb and his saving of Johnson's life; at best I can't imagine Sam's name was brought up as anything other than a parallel to Whitcomb's sacrifice.
Apparently Cortana's death gets to be chalked up to be some completely universe shattering event, despite the fact that's there less of a canonical reason and evidence for the Chief to be bent out of shape over it
While I agree that the lack of Blue Team in larger media is disheartening, I would remind you of the evidence in Halo 5 that they will appear. Fred was in the trailer, and I recall some concept art of them for Halo 4 that never panned out. And 343i's promise that they will appear in future media (also the guy responsible for the squad mechanics of Republic Commando is directing the game so there's that).
What I am saying is that you are making a mountain out of a molehill with this tiny summary. As the Universe forum tends to do. As for Cortana, she and Chief literally shared a brain together for several months. Cortana's death is the straw that broke the camel's back and made him question himself, not because he and her was so deeply connected necessarily, but because the nature of their relationship and her final words gave him a perspective on life no other death has ever given him.You're basically trying to defend the same type of game-extended lore separation that Bungie did that got us into this mess in the first place.Quote:
Bungie required external material to understand their game (Destiny), while 343i is, presumably, going to add bios for Fred and Kelly in Forward Unto Dawn with the knew Encyclopedia feature. Within the context we are discussing, the Halo Channel, this is better than what Bungie gave us.
There's absolutely nothing on Waypoint about Blue Team currently, and since this Halo Channel is being billed as the "new" Waypoint, what reason to I have to believe that they'll suddenly get biographies too - particularly after what they showed with the Chief in terms of not even trying to tie them in with his story?
The definition of the word "New" should give you some hints here.
...And this comment was completely unnecessary and nonconstructive. Congratulations?Quote:its fine, no need for the freak out, we should be sad the cooler and better spartan team is dead...ohhhh black teammm i wish we saw more of youuuuuuu
