The Systematic Erasure of Blue Team...

GreenleafCM wrote:

And as I've asked repeatedly - what proof or solid evidence do you have to support your claims that "Blue Team's appearance in 'Halo 5' is all but confirmed at this point"? Because we've certainly not gotten such from the actual developers, that's for sure.

Recent pieces of solid evidence I have to back up my stance:
- 'Halo 5's marketing solely revolving around Chief as a lone figure, and laying a foundation to introduce only Locke and the Arbiter.
- 'Escalation's offhand treatment of their characters.
- The deliberate omission of them from an "encyclopedia" entry where their inclusion would've been absolutely relevant.

Outside of a few non-commital cameos, we've gotten no proof that Blue Team will be a factor in the future of the plot. In fact current things seem to be actively trying to downplay their relevance to the Chief's character and story. And I'm inclined to base my opinions on what I actually see the developers doing, not on vague non-promises and the words of other fans.

i,,,,i,,,omggggggg im done with this, you keep saying i am rude and im adding nothing when in fact im giving you answers and again you do not like them. Im sorry john didn't bust out into tears upon seeing blue team and having a big group hug.

GreenleafCM wrote:

KingKeene83 wrote:

GreenleafCM wrote:

And as I've asked repeatedly - what proof or solid evidence do you have to support your claims that "Blue Team's appearance in 'Halo 5' is all but confirmed at this point"? Because we've certainly not gotten such from the actual developers, that's for sure.

Recent pieces of solid evidence I have to back up my stance:
- 'Halo 5's marketing solely revolving around Chief as a lone figure, and laying a foundation to introduce only Locke and the Arbiter.
- 'Escalation's offhand treatment of their characters.
- The deliberate omission of them from an "encyclopedia" entry where their inclusion would've been absolutely relevant.

Outside of a few non-commital cameos, we've gotten no proof that Blue Team will be a factor in the future of the plot. In fact current things seem to be actively trying to downplay their relevance to the Chief's character and story. And I'm inclined to base my opinions on what I actually see the developers doing, not on vague non-promises and the words of other fans.

i,,,,i,,,omggggggg im done with this, you keep saying i am rude and im adding nothing when in fact im giving you answers and again you do not like them. Im sorry john didn't bust out into tears upon seeing blue team and having a big group hug.

Um, no. You have not given me one single answer to any of my questions or criticisms, and have done nothing but attempt to insult me periodically throughout this thread while I'm having intelligent discussion with other users. In fact my comment you just quoted was not even directed at you, and you didn't bother to address anything I said in it anyway - so why did you even attach it?

At what point did I ask for the Chief to "burst into tears" or for there to be a "group hug"? After the type of reunion we saw in 'First Strike', and all the other parts of the books/EU that prove the Chief's work with his team is a major pillar that defines his character, how is being disappointed that, based on current evidence, that aspect of the story is not being taken advantage of so wrong?

As I said to you when you first entered this thread: unless you actually have something relevant to add, don't comment. And good riddance to you.

pretty sure i added to this topic, telling you "no! we will see more blue team" how is that not talking about the "Erasure" of blue team? You wanna sit here and call me "stupid" and "child" but im insulting you??? are you joking big stuff!?!?!? i said one joke about black team being better and you got all angry and had a fit hahah maybe you should take a walk outside or something.

In one of the trailers of halo 5 appears the helmet of fred in blue

Luke Del wrote:

Well Halo 5 has barely had any marketing. It's unfair to claim the marketing revolves solely around Chief as a lone figure when we've had 1 trailer in which he is shown on his own and another trailer in which the Arbiter tells us he's disappeared - though we already knew that from Scruggs' comment in Escalation.

That still doesn't answer as to why 343i wouldn't be introducing Blue Team now alongside Locke and the Arbiter if they were going to be included. 'Nightfall' has been marketed heavily as "directly leading into 'Halo 5'", and the MCC is noted as having bonus Arbiter content that ties to his reintroduction in 'Halo 5' as well. So why are we getting zero acknowledgement at the very least of Blue Team? Everything we've heard about the Chief is strictly about "his" disappearance, singular - i.e. he's alone. That doesn't leave a lot of options for Blue Team's current state of being other than being dead, or just conveniently written out of the plot again Bungie-style.

Luke Del wrote:

Escalation's delivery of the characters may not have been the best, but it doesn't mean that Blue Team are being "systematically erased", or wormed out of the canon because the writer of Escalation handled their introduction badly.

The end of 'Escalation' issue #10 literally talks about the Chief as a lone figure and completely removes Blue Team from the equation. I'd call that being erased. They're not being woven into the main storyline at all. As I said, they've just been treated like one big easter egg, rather than actual characters that matter to the Chief.

Luke Del wrote:

It really wasn't very relevant, that encyclopedia entry was simply giving a little bit of backstory about who he was and where he came from. It would have been nice of them to mention Blue Team, but it's no reason to kick off or cause a fuss over.

Actually considering that the biography includes two very specific events where his work with his team was a key factor, I think at least mentioning them would've been incredibly relevant. The Chief's work with his team is a huge part of who he is and where he comes from - right up to the events of 'Halo 2'. I think it's very much worth causing a fuss over. It is not okay that whoever wrote this "encyclopedia" entry thought it was prudent to completely cut out his teammates with whom he's spent 99% of his life and career with and whom he regards as family, while simultaneously mentioning an AI he worked with for three months twice while also using completely overblown and saccharine language while doing so. The biography even trails off at the end and eludes to the Chief's disappearance prior to 'Halo 5', but also completely skips his reunion with his team and the events of 'Escalation'. Their involvement with him is being deliberately erased.

Luke Del wrote:

Because they played such a huge part in the games when Bungie were in charge...

343 confirmed that they'd be playing a larger role in upcoming canon, and we've already seen a render of Fred-104's armour in a trailer for Halo 5.

I never said Bungie did Blue Team any favors....but that doesn't really matter because 343i is in charge now - and they're not doing any better. Actually they've never really confirmed anything about Blue Team. The last thing I believe that was said about them by the devs was at a panel two years ago when a fan asked them a question about "possibly seeing more of the Chief with his Spartan-IIs" (that's where the "we have plans" statement came from). That could've very well been referring to their brief involvement in 'Escalation' and nothing more. Also that render of Fred's armor was in a trailer for the multiplayer beta; it had nothing to do with the plot of the next game, and was shown with zero explanation or context - as it stands it is simply an easter egg.

Luke Del wrote:

Well that's nothing new. They've made an appearance in recent canon, I don't see why that means their significance is being downplayed.

At the end of the day, a mention of Blue Team wasn't absolutely necessary and vital to that encyclopedia entry, nor have 343 done anything that Bungie didn't do before them.

An appearance in an incredibly brief comic where they're basically treated like pieces of scenery and their strong relationship with the Chief is barely acknowledged does mean their significance is being downplayed. And as I said before, it makes zero sense to include two events in that bio where his teammates were a major factor of what made said events significant in the first place, and then just cut them out. You cannot justify that or excuse that. It wasn't okay when Bungie did it, and it's not okay now.

A B1unt Cactus wrote:

You're either choosing to ignore the evidence that is being presented to you, or you don't deem it as "solid" enough, to which you, unfortunately, cannot be helped. Many have told you, that Fred-104's appearance in the Halo 5 Guardians beta trailer is more than enough of a clue, that at least he will be there. Thats already one member of Blue Team.

What evidence? You haven't really given me any...you mean a completely random easter egg in a trailer for the multiplayer is the best "proof" you have? I've not ignored or denied anything that's been presented to me - rather I've given you logical rebuttals as to why easter eggs like that and certain recent appearances do not carry enough weight to be proof of any future involvement by Blue Team.

A B1unt Cactus wrote:

You said yourself, the QUALITY does not matter. Everybody has the general opinion that their handling in Escalation sucked, but no one else is claiming that they will be erased because of that, only you. Their omission from Chief's biography does not matter, whether they have their OWN biography is what should be a greater concern for you.

Actually I said the quality DID matter, and very much so:

"Fred and Kelly's appearance in 'Forward Unto Dawn' (in which Kelly was completely OOC and Fred wasn't even named) was a complete waste. As was their inclusion in 'Escalation', and even the end of issue #10 acts like they were never even there. The quality of these pieces does matter. Because despite the quantity of appearances they make, if those appearances constantly amount to nothing and ignore their established characters and relevance to the Chief's story, it's hardly better than not including them at all. And now we see with things like this "encyclopedia" entry they've been deliberately left out in spite of the fact that it would be incredibly easy and prudent to mention them."

I already am confident they're not going to have their own "encyclopedia" entries - (1) because they've never had any on Waypoint before, and (2) despite their story being inexorably tied to the Chief and his, they were completely cut out of his bio and career history. What does that tell you? If anything they might get lumped into a brief article that's just about "The Spartan-II Program". But either way, that still does not make their omission from the Chief's history remotely okay.

Dragoth2000 wrote:

GreenleafCM wrote:

A B1unt Cactus wrote:

You're either choosing to ignore the evidence that is being presented to you, or you don't deem it as "solid" enough, to which you, unfortunately, cannot be helped. Many have told you, that Fred-104's appearance in the Halo 5 Guardians beta trailer is more than enough of a clue, that at least he will be there. Thats already one member of Blue Team.

What evidence? You haven't really given me any...you mean a completely random easter egg in a trailer for the multiplayer is the best "proof" you have? I've not ignored or denied anything that's been presented to me - rather I've given you logical rebuttals as to why easter eggs like that and certain recent appearances do not carry enough weight to be proof of any future involvement by Blue Team.

A B1unt Cactus wrote:

You said yourself, the QUALITY does not matter. Everybody has the general opinion that their handling in Escalation sucked, but no one else is claiming that they will be erased because of that, only you. Their omission from Chief's biography does not matter, whether they have their OWN biography is what should be a greater concern for you.

Actually I said the quality DID matter, and very much so:

"Fred and Kelly's appearance in 'Forward Unto Dawn' (in which Kelly was completely OOC and Fred wasn't even named) was a complete waste. As was their inclusion in 'Escalation', and even the end of issue #10 acts like they were never even there. The quality of these pieces does matter. Because despite the quantity of appearances they make, if those appearances constantly amount to nothing and ignore their established characters and relevance to the Chief's story, it's hardly better than not including them at all. And now we see with things like this "encyclopedia" entry they've been deliberately left out in spite of the fact that it would be incredibly easy and prudent to mention them."

I already am confident they're not going to have their own "encyclopedia" entries - (1) because they've never had any on Waypoint before, and (2) despite their story being inexorably tied to the Chief and his, they were completely cut out of his bio and career history. What does that tell you? If anything they might get lumped into a brief article that's just about "The Spartan-II Program". But either way, that still does not make their omission from the Chief's history remotely okay.

Greenleafcm.... I have been watching this thread with...... interest... My views of how you have been posting have ranged from "this guys smart" to "This guy is a bit of a moron". I wholeheartedly support your Blue team fanaticism (id say about 70% of my created threads are about Blue team), and agree with the majority of your points, But I feel I do have to agree with some of the other posters in regarding the content that your blowing this out of proportion. Is blue team not appearing in Johns history an issue? Yes, because its like taking the Jul Mdama and only seeing viewing him from Spartan Ops, its his highlight, but it lacks a heck of a lot of background (no i'm not implying Blue team is background). But your going a little far claiming Blue team is being being systemically erased over a single encyclopedia entry. Neglected? Obliviously. Ultimately we can't decide what the heck 343 is up too, because its like trying to find out whats in the "box" from the outside. You can get clues, but it might be very different then from what your thinking. They may not appear in halo 5 or 6, It will still always be Halo and that I think we all need to remember (although it WOULD really suck for them not to be in Halo 5 with all the hype, or any "Halo video game" for that matter).

I suppose I'm trying to request you to tone down your accusations, Because from a guy who's just reading your post, your coming off as a little bit .... over the deep end in regard to this (this is just my opinion, but I'm trying to give some constructive criticism), But I am enjoying the banter and attention your giving blue team.

Also the "multiplayer" easter egg does have a little bit of relevance because "multiplayer" now actually happens in the Halo universe. So it might be implying that Freds training spartan 4's.... or who knows what.

Gonna have to agree, with Dragoth here, I completely agree Blue Team is an extremely big part of the Master Chief's life and they've helped mold him to who he is but this big fanaticism over them being erased is getting a bit much. They've barely shared anything other then "Next 72 Hours" story which shows them. For fans who are new to the Halo franchise and just hopped onto the fandom of Halo, either with Halo Reach or Halo 4 the comic shows Blue Team to them.
Which if they are intrigued they'll go searching for online and they'll see how much Blue Team means to Master Chief. Barely anything has been showed of Halo 5 other then a few renders of the MP beta and just because they aren't being mentioned in info about Master Chief's past doesn't mean they are being erased, thats paranoia. The only part we know of is Chief has gone rogue and has left. We don't know what Guardians will hold for us in the story. Perhaps Blue Team will show up in the prologue cutscene for the game, perhaps they'll appear midway through the story to help Chief in his quest when they find him with or without Locke.
But thats purely speculation just like your claim of them being erased, since we have no clue what is going to happen. Perhaps if Blue Team was mentioned in the information on Chief it might some how give away that they'll appear in Guardians, we don't know.

Halochief89RvB wrote:

Gonna have to agree, with Dragoth here, **I completely agree Blue Team is an extremely big part of the Master Chief's life and they've helped mold him to who he is but this big fanaticism over them being erased is getting a bit much. They've barely shared anything other then "Next 72 Hours" story which shows them. For fans who are new to the Halo franchise and just hopped onto the fandom of Halo, either with Halo Reach or Halo 4 the comic shows Blue Team to them.
Which if they are intrigued they'll go searching for online and they'll see how much Blue Team means to Master Chief. Barely anything has been showed of Halo 5 other then a few renders of the MP beta and just because they aren't being mentioned in info about Master Chief's past doesn't mean they are being erased, thats paranoia. The only part we know of is Chief has gone rogue and has left. We don't know what Guardians will hold for us in the story. Perhaps Blue Team will show up in the prologue cutscene for the game, perhaps they'll appear midway through the story to help Chief in his quest when they find him with or without Locke.
But thats purely speculation just like your claim of them being erased, since we have no clue what is going to happen. Perhaps if Blue Team was mentioned in the information on Chief it might some how give away that they'll appear in Guardians, we don't know.

**So if that's true, how is it in any way okay to just let things like this article slide? As I've said over and over, it would've been both incredibly easy and relevant to include Blue Team in the Chief's bio - thus better educating newer fans and rewarding longtime lore fans' investments. Instead it does neither, and does all fans and the Chief as a character a disservice. How is that acceptable? Also as I've already mentioned, the two parts where it would've been most prudent to include Blue Team (the Col. Watts mission & Chi Ceti) would absolutely not give anything away about them having future involvement in the story. There's just no logical reason to leave them out - and I'm not willing to excuse 343i for such a mistake, especially after the way Blue Team was treated in 'Escalation'. The Spartan-IIs of Blue Team are a very important part of the Chief's life and who he is, and Halo fans should not have to resort to digging around on the web on unofficial sites to find out more about them because an official encyclopedia entry completely cuts them out.

GreenleafCM wrote:

Dragoth2000 wrote:

Greenleafcm.... I have been watching this thread with...... interest... My views of how you have been posting have ranged from "this guys smart" to "This guy is a bit of a moron". I wholeheartedly support your Blue team fanaticism (id say about 70% of my created threads are about Blue team), and agree with the majority of your points, But I feel I do have to agree with some of the other posters in regarding the content that your blowing this out of proportion. Is blue team not appearing in Johns history an issue? Yes, because its like taking the Jul Mdama and only seeing viewing him from Spartan Ops, its his highlight, but it lacks a heck of a lot of background (no i'm not implying Blue team is background). But your going a little far claiming Blue team is being being systemically erased over a single encyclopedia entry. Neglected? Obliviously. Ultimately we can't decide what the heck 343 is up too, because its like trying to find out whats in the "box" from the outside. You can get clues, but it might be very different then from what your thinking. They may not appear in halo 5 or 6, It will still always be Halo and that I think we all need to remember (although it WOULD really suck for them not to be in Halo 5 with all the hype, or any "Halo video game" for that matter).

I suppose I'm trying to request you to tone down your accusations, Because from a guy who's just reading your post, your coming off as a little bit .... over the deep end in regard to this (this is just my opinion, but I'm trying to give some constructive criticism), But I am enjoying the banter and attention your giving blue team.

Also the "multiplayer" easter egg does have a little bit of relevance because "multiplayer" now actually happens in the Halo universe. So it might be implying that Freds training spartan 4's.... or who knows what.

It's not singularly about this one encyclopedia entry though - Blue Team's omission from this article, when it would've been incredibly relevant to mention them, is just another addition to an already large pile of completely wasted opportunities to better explore the Chief's history and better connect the games and the EU. And I'm sick and tired of seeing that, and I've had enough of just sitting here and keeping quiet while my 10 years of investment in the Halo franchise is treated like it doesn't matter.

You agreed with me that Blue Team's neglect in things like this is indeed an issue...so why not be critical about it? Why just accept these things? If we don't ever talk about Blue Team and make it known that this type of treatment is not okay, then it's guaranteed that we'll never get to see them in any capacity beyond cheap easter eggs. And somebody's got to speak up for Blue Team around here, so that's what I intend to do and keep doing until we get some sort of real answers as to what's going on.

I will agree their relevant, However I will also have to say its not NECESSARILY essential to the CURRENT story. Talking and being critical about it is fine, But ... "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". What I mean to say is that while your trying to be critical, your also coming off as....... (for lack of a better word) unhealthfuly obsessed and rather closed minded. While I LOVE blue team and would happily pay a few thousand dollars out of my own pocket to see them in a game (ya that's pretty obsessive to an average halo fan), blue team is not a 10 year investment..... at most its a 100 doller one of you bought the books/comics and the newer editions. Connecting the game and the EU is in progress, 343 is doing a crap load better then Bungie did. We just haven't seen the "blue team connection" yet unfortunately.

What I'm saying is, if we want to talk about Blue team, be smart. Don't keep a topic going for the sake of..... keeping it going. Its like spamming a thread about blue team everyday. All this thread is doing is (essentially) recycling old arguments and creating drama (although me poking my head in, I'm also guilty of that)

Yes, their being neglected, But try not be looking at all the negativity. We got them in Halo Legends, Foward unto dawn, Escalations, and little Easter egg mentions that SHOULD to any curious lad out their generate interest. Its not optimal by any means, But its a heck of a lot better then we had.

Also if you feel I'm "attacking" you as a ..... person, Please let me know and I will stop that particular topic, and if you desire we can discuses this via PM and not "dramatize" the halo universe section of the site. I'm sure these conversations/current direction of the thread are causing a few moderators to squint a bit......

Dragoth2000 wrote:

I will agree their relevant, However I will also have to say its not NECESSARILY essential to the CURRENT story. Talking and being critical about it is fine, But ... "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". What I mean to say is that while your trying to be critical, your also coming off as....... (for lack of a better word) unhealthfuly obsessed and rather closed minded. While I LOVE blue team and would happily pay a few thousand dollars out of my own pocket to see them in a game (ya that's pretty obsessive to an average halo fan), blue team is not a 10 year investment..... at most its a 100 doller one of you bought the books/comics and the newer editions. Connecting the game and the EU is in progress, 343 is doing a crap load better then Bungie did. We just haven't seen the "blue team connection" yet unfortunately.

What I'm saying is, if we want to talk about Blue team, be smart. Don't keep a topic going for the sake of..... keeping it going. Its like spamming a thread about blue team everyday. All this thread is doing is (essentially) recycling old arguments and creating drama (although me poking my head in, I'm also guilty of that)

Yes, their being neglected, But try not be looking at all the negativity. We got them in Halo Legends, Foward unto dawn, Escalations, and little Easter egg mentions that SHOULD to any curious lad out their generate interest. Its not optimal by any means, But its a heck of a lot better then we had.

Also if you feel I'm "attacking" you as a ..... person, Please let me know and I will stop that particular topic, and if you desire we can discuses this via PM and not "dramatize" the halo universe section of the site. I'm sure these conversations/current direction of the thread are causing a few moderators to squint a bit......

Blue Team is a ten year investment for me - they have been my favorite characters ever since I read 'The Fall of Reach' so may years ago. I've subsequently bought all the games, all the books, the comics, and dozens of pieces of other merchandise. Not to mention all the hours of my own time I've spent crafting various fanworks, most of which are about Blue Team...all this fueled by my love of the Universe that exists largely outside the games. So to see that aspect of the story, and my favorite characters within it, treated like they don't matter is incredibly frustrating.

I'm not recycling old arguments. People keep coming onto this thread and attempting to shut me down or somehow convince me to have confidence that 343i will finally include Blue Team (in a meaningful way) when there's not any solid proof or reason for me to have such confidence. I'm simply giving them my rebuttals and showing them evidence to the contrary. I'm not attempting to create drama either - I'm just making my case. Isn't that the point of any type of discussion or debate?

So just because Blue Team have gotten a few measly cameos means we, as fans of these characters, should just accept poor quality and poor treatment because "well, at least it's a few more appearances than what Bungie gave us."? We shouldn't have to settle for that. Not only when it would benefit the franchise as a whole to include them (and as more than just easter egg fodder), but also when it would be so incredibly easy for the developers to do so.

I don't think you're attacking me personally. However, I still have just as much right to post my replies on this topic as anyone else for as long as the thread isn't over 3 months old. I've not flamed, trolled, or insulted anyone (save for that one user who was deliberately trying to insult me first), and I've broken no forum rules. Blue Team have been a part of this franchise for just as long as the Master Chief and Cortana, and even longer than the Arbiter, and have just as much if not more relevance to the Chief's story than the latter two characters. I think it's high time they got some kind of real recognition - so that's what I intend to keep being vocal about.

Dragoth2000 wrote:

Clarification: I meant works with blue team in them. They have been my favorite since "Reach" as well. I have also looked and been inspire by rgw EU far more then the mainstream games. I did not factor in fanfictions.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. While thire has been a few go'ers like that, there have been a few people that say its not a big deal, and I'm my opinion they are correct. But you could also be right... as i said... we don't know whats behind the bloody box.

No, but as I said before, its something. Bad and poor? Yes, But if your father tries to start loving you after 10 years and its .... bad and poor.... you can at least appreciate the attempt. I dont see it as "incredibly easy" to put blue team in the game, *But I do see it as a massively wasted investment and downright stupid not to have them in.

I never said you dint have a right to post, merely my interpretation of the posts and there..... effects. In clarification to the PM's I meant if you felt I was attacking you personally and you dint want that going on in a public venue. Keep in mind i'm attempting to clarify my viewpoint on what im seeing your doing. I could be wrong, But just trying to give you a outside perspective on your posts.

Whether or not Blue Team was actually in certain pieces of media, them being my favorite characters is what fueled my desire to continue to learn more about the Halo Universe and the Master Chief as a character these past 10 or so years by reading the books/comics, playing the games, etc. Also I think time spent creating fanworks is indeed a legitimate part of somebody's investment in a franchise as well.

I suppose we'll have to. However, as we have seen how they've been treated in recent materials like 'Escalation' and now this "encyclopedia" article, I think it's becoming quite clear what 343i thinks of Blue Team - that they don't matter. In spite of the fact that they've been a part of this franchise just as long as the main character himself and are a major part of his history and who he is as a person. To me, as a longtime Halo fan, that is just not acceptable.

It would be easy if they actually started acknowledging these characters exist in more mainstream pieces of media. For example: by briefly including them in an article on the Halo Channel that's meant to inform people about the Chief's history - but they refuse to do even that. *Looks like you just answered your own question there too.

Nah, it's all good. We may not agree on all points, but I appreciate your input. The thing is I think people are just frustrated they can't really counter my criticisms with actual facts beyond "well, we'll just have to wait and see what 343i does" and "I think you're just overreacting", while I have current, official evidence to support what I'm saying...As I've said before, I've been waiting and seeing for 3 years now for Blue Team to get some meaningful acknowledgement, and what I've gotten and what I've seen thus far is the exact opposite of that. Apparently this thread got whoever runs the "Catalog"s attention, so hopefully by keeping up on being vocal about this a tiny whisper about Blue Team just might make it's way up 343i's grapevine. It's not much, but it's the best I can hope for and can do.