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UNSC Infinity VS Covenant Super Carrier

OP ShadowsofWar109

7/20/2018

BagelllllllEetr

Marine - Bronze

As others here have stated, Infinity’s SMAC could probably destroy a CSO if it hit the neck of the ship a couple times.

Infinity also has shields for deflecting plasma weapons and would be much more maneuverable than the CSO because of the big difference in mass.

Speedboats with mini guns can cripple much larger ships in real life because they are so much faster than the target. This isn’t a perfect comparison but it serves to illustrate that size isn’t everything in naval combat.

And, though I’ve been away from Halo for a while, I thought most CSO’s were destroyed in the war/schism and not that many were ever built anyway.

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2/16/2019

WaterMelon008

Recruit - Bronze

This is pretty easy honestly. The infinity wins every time so long as both ships are prepared for a battle. The infinity has 4 of the latest gen MACs onboard, and a single one of them was able to punch a hole in the forerunner ship mantles approach. The forerunner alloy was far superior to covenant alloy, and we know the super Mac could destroy three super carriers with a single shot in the lore... so if you have four of the latest macs, along with the hundreds upon hundreds of missile bays, and all the other armaments on the infinity, the supercarrier would be completely annihalated.

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2/16/2019

WaterMelon008

Recruit - Bronze

This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.

Spoiler:

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timh1990 wrote:
hsvrunlover wrote:
When has it been explicitly stated that the CSC or any of their ships have Forerunner level shields or weapons? And I know how much it makes people angry to think that humans can adapt the technology in less than 10 years when the Covenant have had it for thousands....But seriously.

When has this been stated?

On the other hand it has been stated that they molded their technology from reverse engineering Forerunner tech but it is not as good.

Now the Infinity LITERALLY has Forerunner shields and Forerunner slip-space drives. And size does not matter when you are comparing technology, so why is it unbelievable to many that the Infinity actually has better shields?

And again we can debate all we want but hasn't it been cannon lore that said the Infinity is the strongest ship created since the Forerunner Empire? Again bigger is not always better and we have seen the Infinity in action against Covenant ships, they literally are like babies fighting a 6'5 marine....
Where has it ever been canonically stated that the Infinity's energy shielding is derived from pure Forerunner technology rather then being reverse engineered from Covenant energy shielding?

Where has it ever been stated that the "Infinity is the strongest ship created since the Forerunner Empire", and are you actually aware that the Infinity got crippled by a single Corvette sized Covenant space station without ever being able to fire a shot at Oth Lodon in Halo Escalations.

If the Infinity can't take on a 1 kilometre long Covenant space station, what the hech chance will it stand against a 30 kilometre Covenant Super Carrier with multiple energy projectors?

Your earlier statement is also incorrect, a size does matter in ship-to-ship combat scenario. A ship's size dictates the size and length of that ships weaponry and stored energy reserves which can in turn be fed into its energy shielding or weaponry.

When Miranda Keyes wanted to engage a 5.4 kilometre long CAS-class Assault Carrier in Halo 2, Admiral Hood's exact words were "not against a ship that size commander, not on your own."

Size matters and a Covenant Super Carrier dwarf's a Infinity-class...whatever its class is (technological demonstrator I think) several times over!

You sir, are an idiot.
He was talking about the UNSC INFINITY, probably the most advanced ship of the covenant-human era, not the crappy and absolutely tiny ship Miranda Keyes was piloting, and it is actually directly said that the infinity has forerunner tech, including shields and slipspace engines, because in halo glasslands, Halsey along with a group of Spartans in shield world trevellyn encounter original forerunner engineers and explicitly state that they can use the information the engineers contain to create forerunner technology. The UNSC infinity was built by those engineers. It’s literally stated that as part of its crew, the infinity contains a bunch of original forerunner or direct decendant engineers on board, who repair and upgrade equipment and the ship itself. The engineers have been shown to take anything more primitive than forerunner tech level and upgrade it to forerunner level, so even if the infinity was constructed without forerunner level tech, the engineers would have simply upgraded everything straight away.

The infinity is also able to punch a hole in the mantles approach, which shows that a single series 8 Mac on the infinity can easily destroy forerunner alloy, which is better than what the covenant use, and that the macs on the infinity are about the same strength of the super Mac, which can destroy three covenant capital ships in a single shot...
so one shot, from any of the FOUR MAC cannons on the infinity would easily cripple a supercarrier...
just saying... but if you want to reference the halo lore, try to actually understand it and know more than a single book...

and try try to understand the concept that new things are normally better...and when something is far larger and far, far more advanced, it’s better than the much smaller and completely obsolete ship in comparison...

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2/17/2019

timh1990

Marine - Silver

WaterMelon008 wrote:
timh1990 wrote:
hsvrunlover wrote:
When has it been explicitly stated that the CSC or any of their ships have Forerunner level shields or weapons? And I know how much it makes people angry to think that humans can adapt the technology in less than 10 years when the Covenant have had it for thousands....But seriously.

When has this been stated?

On the other hand it has been stated that they molded their technology from reverse engineering Forerunner tech but it is not as good.

Now the Infinity LITERALLY has Forerunner shields and Forerunner slip-space drives. And size does not matter when you are comparing technology, so why is it unbelievable to many that the Infinity actually has better shields?

And again we can debate all we want but hasn't it been cannon lore that said the Infinity is the strongest ship created since the Forerunner Empire? Again bigger is not always better and we have seen the Infinity in action against Covenant ships, they literally are like babies fighting a 6'5 marine....
Where has it ever been canonically stated that the Infinity's energy shielding is derived from pure Forerunner technology rather then being reverse engineered from Covenant energy shielding?

Where has it ever been stated that the "Infinity is the strongest ship created since the Forerunner Empire", and are you actually aware that the Infinity got crippled by a single Corvette sized Covenant space station without ever being able to fire a shot at Oth Lodon in Halo Escalations.

If the Infinity can't take on a 1 kilometre long Covenant space station, what the hech chance will it stand against a 30 kilometre Covenant Super Carrier with multiple energy projectors?

Your earlier statement is also incorrect, a size does matter in ship-to-ship combat scenario. A ship's size dictates the size and length of that ships weaponry and stored energy reserves which can in turn be fed into its energy shielding or weaponry.

When Miranda Keyes wanted to engage a 5.4 kilometre long CAS-class Assault Carrier in Halo 2, Admiral Hood's exact words were "not against a ship that size commander, not on your own."

Size matters and a Covenant Super Carrier dwarf's a Infinity-class...whatever its class is (technological demonstrator I think) several times over!
You sir, are an idiot.
He was talking about the UNSC INFINITY, probably the most advanced ship of the covenant-human era, not the crappy and absolutely tiny ship Miranda Keyes was piloting, and it is actually directly said that the infinity has forerunner tech, including shields and slipspace engines, because in halo glasslands, Halsey along with a group of Spartans in shield world trevellyn encounter original forerunner engineers and explicitly state that they can use the information the engineers contain to create forerunner technology. The UNSC infinity was built by those engineers. It’s literally stated that as part of its crew, the infinity contains a bunch of original forerunner or direct decendant engineers on board, who repair and upgrade equipment and the ship itself. The engineers have been shown to take anything more primitive than forerunner tech level and upgrade it to forerunner level, so even if the infinity was constructed without forerunner level tech, the engineers would have simply upgraded everything straight away.

The infinity is also able to punch a hole in the mantles approach, which shows that a single series 8 Mac on the infinity can easily destroy forerunner alloy, which is better than what the covenant use, and that the macs on the infinity are about the same strength of the super Mac, which can destroy three covenant capital ships in a single shot...
so one shot, from any of the FOUR MAC cannons on the infinity would easily cripple a supercarrier...
just saying... but if you want to reference the halo lore, try to actually understand it and know more than a single book...

and try try to understand the concept that new things are normally better...and when something is far larger and far, far more advanced, it’s better than the much smaller and completely obsolete ship in comparison...

So I’m an idiot?

Well unlike you I understand the basic concept of mathematics and how dates work.

You claim that he UNSC infinity was “built by those engineers” (the Huragok)

Construction on Infinity started in 2544, almost a decade before the UNSC gained access to the Huragok in 2553 which was the same year Infinity was completed and deployed.

So your plain wrong here.

The Huragok on Trevelyan did not build Infinity as you claim.

Yes, these Huragok likely made some final ‘improvements’ to the end product after it was 90% built, if you call a slip-space drive the crew can’t control an improvement.

But they did not build it because they were not there for 90% of the construction time.

Likewise, you claim Infinity energy shields are Forerunner technology. Where in Glassland’s is this directly stated (page number and quote please). I’ve read this novel and its ridiculous sequel, and its stated that Infinity is equipped with a Forerunner slip-space and communications array that allow them real time connections over slip space, but no mention is ever made of energy shields or anything else. This is backed up by statements from both Hasley and Palmer in Spart Ops.

Oh, and the Huragok were engineered by the Forerunners, so there is no such thing as Huragok directly descended from the Forerunners. The Covenant likely found their Huragok the same place the UNSC did, surviving Forerunner installations.

I’m not going to sink to your level and call you an idiot. I’m just going to assume that in addition to being wrong on every argument you’ve made here, that your also just too ignorant to understand other people’s views on theoretical augments are just as valid as your own.

I’m also not going to into the same detail I usually go into on pointing out the fact that for all its supposed superiority, Infinity has been disabled and boarded 2 times that I know off, and got crippled a Covenant space 1/5 of its overall length and size at Oth Lodon.

If it can’t destroy a measly little Covenant weapons platform 1/5 its overall size, what chance is it going to stand against a Covenant Super Carrier that 5 times its overall length and size that also single handily defeated Reach’s entire defence fleet which included 20 Super MAC’s equipped OPD’s.

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2/17/2019

l Chaos I

Marine - Bronze

So why does the debate always lead to:

Engineers = Forerunner Improvements and Shields.

The only confirmed and stated Forerunner anything on the Infinity is its engines as stated by Palmer is Spartan Ops, when Halsey stated that the engine was communicating with the Infinity's systems. Just because the Infinity has engineers doesn't mean that it gets instant Forerunner upgrades as the Infinity is humanities crowning achievement. The engines are already a risk, since it shut down without warning leaving them dead in the water once. Why would any scientist or the people at the top risk humanities most powerful ship by adding more alien tech, that frankly isn't understood by anyone in the current era, since its only been a few years since Forerunner tech was introduced to the UNSC.

I'd argue the only reason why people say it has Forerunner shields is because it rammed a RCS-armored cruiser in Spartan Ops.

Which isn't anything special as during the Human-Covenant War, the RCS-armored cruiser was already phased by the far superior CCS-battlecruiser which was the mainstay vessel of the Covenant empire. The cutscene is cool, but that is all it is and once that cool factor wares off you realize that the Infinity rammed into the vessel from its starboard and in Halo. Size matters so obviously the RCS-armored cruiser is going to be destroyed relatively easily. As for why the shields are strong, I am just going to put that off and say because of how large the Infinity is, its shields are obviously going to be strong enough to at least combat a out-dated Covenant fleet over Requim.

Jul Mdama's fleet isn't special either despite its rather impressive size in the Post-War Era.

The fleet is made up primarly of RCS-armored cruisers and the smaller CRS-class light cruiser. These ships are obviously no match for the Infinity as they simply can't match the Infinity or an average fleet of the late Covenant empire. Now putting that aside, we simply don't know how well the Infinity can compete against the CAS-Assault Carrier or the CSO-Super Carrier. We can argue what side is superior based off of feats and the capabilities of both vessels, but the actual battle would be decided on how the ships face one another. Straight up combat, who knows who would come out, but space battles aren't exactly fair.

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7/14/2019

MyN0N0Z0ne

Recruit - Iron

Okay, ik m only going to be replying to one part of your argument because it is bothering me very much. Yuh ou completely brush off the fact that the infinity was able to punch a hole through the Mantle's approach. This is significant because this was a fully shielded FORERUNNER ship, and a massive one at that, haveing way over 10 times the volume of the Long Night of Solace. If the infinity was able to puncture the much more powerful shields (assuming they are more powerful than the LNoS due it being a forerunner ship and having a much greater power reserve) I think it is safe to say that the infinity can damage the LNoS, maybe even cripple it with one shot.
Also: the Mantles Approach is assumed to have much more durable armor than any covenant ship because again, its forerunner.

Is it mentioned anywhere that the LNoS was able to tank ODP and ship based MAC rounds? I haven't read any of the comics or anything but as far as a know the only appearance of a CSO supercarrier is in halo reach and no where else. And in-game as soon as the carrier is revealed it books it to space and gets far out of range of the ODPs. So idk how in that time frame it would have had to tank as many shots as you said it did. Then again i could have missed something in the expanded lore.

And you say that the infinity wouldn't be able to destroy a CSO directly under it like it is relevant, and how is it? It is not like that will ever happen in an actual ship to ship engagement, unless you think the CSO would somehow be able to completely blindside the infinity which I dont see how it would since its pretty hard to not spot a ship as large as the CSO, so why would you even mention that? To show off the strengths of one ship? Why dont you mention that if it was an actual ship battle the infinity would be able to stay far out of range of the CSO's weapons and poke at it with its OP macs which are, like I said before, able to pierce the hull of a fully shielded forerunner ship.

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7/14/2019

CDS TwixedoCat

Recruit - Bronze

ROBERTO jh wrote:
Here is some scaling to put things into perspective.

The Mantle's Approach was waltzing through the entire ODP grid with absolutely no trouble whatsoever. That includes the SMAC platforms, which each fire about 50+ gigatons per shot, ever 5 seconds (that's 50,000+ megatons). We know that the Mantle was making a linear approach, because if it was dodging those shots, then the Chief would've been slammed into the walls while he flew in its trenches. We also have reason to believe her shields weren't up either, as we see them vanish upon exiting slipspace, we see no shield flares from the UNSC attacks, and we see the fleet hovering right over her hull.

The Infinity managed to do what the entire ODP grid couldn't do and blow a hole through the Approach's hull. That puts her weapon at above the ODP grid.

The Unyielding Hierophant, a Covenant space station larger than a Supercarrier, had shield generator nodes that each produced 512 terrawats per lobe, and after viewing some calcs online, that puts its defensive energy equal to around 1.3 megatons per second for each node (though I sensed a math discrepancy that would make the actual number even lower). Even if the smaller Supercarrier had 20 of these nodes projecting ts shield, it could only take about 26 megatons per second before failing and having to recharge.

The Infinity, according to Halo 4, has a primary weapon more powerful than a 50 gigaton SMAC weapon. Even if the Supercarrier's shields could recharge in 1 second, the shear brute force of the Infinity's main cannon would either one shot or severely cripple the Supercarrier beyond saving, depending on where it hit. The Infinity is simply too powerful for the SC to handle, despite its superior size and (probably) more numerous weapons.

Yeah but the supercarrier has a glassing laser

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7/15/2019

TheJalster0011

Recruit - Onyx

I feel as though the Infinity would win, through tactics more than anything. With its shielding and 4 MAC cannons, it could withstand a salvo from the carrier and fire all 4 cannons and lots of their missles in succession, downing their shields and punching through its armor. Retreat, recharge MAC cannons and shields, and repeat.

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7/15/2019

timh1990

Marine - Silver

MyN0N0Z0ne wrote:
Okay, ik m only going to be replying to one part of your argument because it is bothering me very much. Yuh ou completely brush off the fact that the infinity was able to punch a hole through the Mantle's approach. This is significant because this was a fully shielded FORERUNNER ship, and a massive one at that, haveing way over 10 times the volume of the Long Night of Solace. If the infinity was able to puncture the much more powerful shields (assuming they are more powerful than the LNoS due it being a forerunner ship and having a much greater power reserve) I think it is safe to say that the infinity can damage the LNoS, maybe even cripple it with one shot.
Also: the Mantles Approach is assumed to have much more durable armor than any covenant ship because again, its forerunner.

Is it mentioned anywhere that the LNoS was able to tank ODP and ship based MAC rounds? I haven't read any of the comics or anything but as far as a know the only appearance of a CSO supercarrier is in halo reach and no where else. And in-game as soon as the carrier is revealed it books it to space and gets far out of range of the ODPs. So idk how in that time frame it would have had to tank as many shots as you said it did. Then again i could have missed something in the expanded lore.

And you say that the infinity wouldn't be able to destroy a CSO directly under it like it is relevant, and how is it? It is not like that will ever happen in an actual ship to ship engagement, unless you think the CSO would somehow be able to completely blindside the infinity which I dont see how it would since its pretty hard to not spot a ship as large as the CSO, so why would you even mention that? To show off the strengths of one ship? Why dont you mention that if it was an actual ship battle the infinity would be able to stay far out of range of the CSO's weapons and poke at it with its OP macs which are, like I said before, able to pierce the hull of a fully shielded forerunner ship.

I’m unsure who you are replying to here but in relation to Infinity MAC’s penetrating Mantle’s Approach, they did not punch a whole through MA like you stated. All they did was create an entry point on one side of the hull just large enough for a Broadsword to enter the ship, and which self sealed a moment later. We never actually see the ODP’s around Earth hitting MA, we’re only told there fire is ineffective which it would be any any holes they are punching in MA are immediately self sealing or being intercepted by Forerunner AA particle cannons.

Infinity’s inability to destroy, disable, slow down or prevent MA firing its converter at Earth does not prove in any way, shape or form it’s weapons would be any more effective against a CSO Super Carrier then human MAC guns have been against Covenant shields and armour up to this point.

As a side note, the Halo Warfleet book does not list energy shielding as being part of MA’s defences like it did with Infinity, Shadow of Intent or Truth and Reconciliation. It’s entirely possible MA is not equipped with energy shielding but rather self repairing armour as it is stated parts of the ship are composed of hard-light.

In relation to LNoS taking on Reach entire defence grid over Reach including the 20 ODP’s, this is self evident. The Super Carrier teleported itself straight into Reach atmosphere beneath the ODP’s. ODP’s are stationary MAC cannons without interplanetary or slip-space engines, so their only option would have been to engage LNoS. At the same time LNoS is not going to sit in Reach’s orbit and allow itself to be pummelled by MAC cannon fire from above without retaliation.

The very fact the mission ‘Long Night of Solace’ starts several hours after this LNoS has been deployed into Reach’s atmosphere, and LNoS bares no visible battle damage while still in uncontested orbit over Reach tells you everything you need to know. You may not see LNoS fighting or destroying these platforms, but the very fact they are not there and LNoS is means LNoS withstood every MAC cannon these platforms could fire at it before it destroyed them in turn, since they could not flee.

If you woke up tomorrow morning to find a foreign army occupying every city and port in your country, would you really believe your own government or armed forces were still in tact and functional just because you did not actually see them get defeated?

And I think your mistaken, as LNoS did not ‘book it’ to get out of range of Reach’s defence grid. The ship is in high orbit in the mission where you destroy it. You actually fall from the Corvette into Reach’s atmosphere as the Corvette is entering LNoS’s docking port.

This could not have happened if either ship was not in orbit of Reach.

The following transcript from the missions proves LNoS is still in orbit of Reach hrs after its deployed;

Catherine-B320: "Objective? Destroy Covenant carrier in geosynchronous orbit above us."

How exactly do you think LNoS could have outrun the ranges of Reach’s ODP’s if it is still in geosynchronous orbit of the planet?

In relation to the vulnerability of UNSC warships to taking fire in their flanks, I can think of 3 separate occasions this has been exploited to destroy or incapacitate UNSC ships. The afore mentioned frigate LNoS destroyed in Halo Reach, the Marathon-class heavy cruiser destroyed by a CAS-class Assault Carrier during the Battle of Earth itself, and the occasion Infinity itself was broadsided and incapacitated by a Covenant space station 1/5 its overall length.

How is the fact UNSC warships are completely vulnerable to Covenant warships from any angle of approach, and the fact there only effective ship killing weapon requires horizontal and vertical line of sight with its target not relevant to a conventional fight between these 2 ships?

And why do you think Infinity would be able to get out of range of a CSO-class Super Carriers energy projectors but it’s MAC cannon would still be within range?

The opposite was true in the novel, as the Covenant flagship was able to sit comfortably outside the range of Reach’s ODP’s a destroy 8 human warships at will?

Do you have the effective ranges of MAC cannons and and Covenant energy projectors written down?

If this is an effective tactic why have we never seen it used before, and why did the UNSC fleet in the game not use this tactic before according to Carter’s words all their nukes ‘went down on the ships that carried them’?

Have I missed anything?

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7/15/2019

timh1990

Marine - Silver

TheJalster0011 wrote:
I feel as though the Infinity would win, through tactics more than anything. With its shielding and 4 MAC cannons, it could withstand a salvo from the carrier and fire all 4 cannons and lots of their missles in succession, downing their shields and punching through its armor. Retreat, recharge MAC cannons and shields, and repeat.

Accept Infinity’s shielding and armour could not even stop a single energy projector equipped Covenant space station blasting 3 consecutive holes through one side of Infinity’s hull to the other, and that space station was only 1/5 of Infinity’s overall length and size.

Please google Oth Lodon and Halopedia if you don’t know to what I am referring.

We’ve never once seen Infinity’s MAC’s fired in anger against a Covenant warship.

What makes you think it’s MAC cannons would so effortlessly destroy a ship 5 times it’s overall length while at the same time shrugging off that ships return fire when a single blast from a Covenant weapons platform 25 times smaller in length then a Covenant Super Carrier incapacitated Infinity?

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7/15/2019

M0ckingDrag0n

Recruit - Onyx

Infinity uses slipspace to rip apart the Super Carrier.

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7/16/2019

Marinealver

Marine - Onyx

Given how in H4 and after the UNSC is just so OP right now, Infinity hands down. Not even Truth's Dreadnought would stand a chance. That thing could destroy all of the Fleet of Particular Justice and High Charity without flinching.

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7/17/2019

timh1990

Marine - Silver

Marinealver wrote:
Given how in H4 and after the UNSC is just so OP right now, Infinity hands down. Not even Truth's Dreadnought would stand a chance. That thing could destroy all of the Fleet of Particular Justice and High Charity without flinching.

How...?

The Fleet of Particular Justice decisively defeated the USNC on multiple occasions during the war, and Truth’s dreadnaught seemed to single handily smash Earth’s home fleet.

Infinity by comparison got crippled at Oth Lodon by a single Covenant space station about 1/5 its overall length.

Covenant capital ships all the way up the CSO-class Super Carrier are going to be stuffed to the rafters with even bigger versions of this weapon that we’ve already seen are more then capable of crippling Infinity to the point that its left defenceless and listing in space.

How do you envisage this not happening to Infinity again?

And as I side note, the UNSC is not OP after Halo 3.

The Evolutions novel included a transcript post 2553 stating that the Human military has never been weaker then it is right now then since the dawn of Hunan slip-space travel centuries earlier.

The UNSC is just one very large and costly egg in one very spacious basket right now.

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7/17/2019

Marinealver

Marine - Onyx

timh1990 wrote:
Marinealver wrote:
Given how in H4 and after the UNSC is just so OP right now, Infinity hands down. Not even Truth's Dreadnought would stand a chance. That thing could destroy all of the Fleet of Particular Justice and High Charity without flinching.
How...?

The Fleet of Particular Justice decisively defeated the USNC on multiple occasions during the war, and Truth’s dreadnaught seemed to single handily smash Earth’s home fleet.

Infinity by comparison got crippled at Oth Lodon by a single Covenant space station about 1/5 its overall length.

Covenant capital ships all the way up the CSO-class Super Carrier are going to be stuffed to the rafters with even bigger versions of this weapon that we’ve already seen are more then capable of crippling Infinity to the point that its left defenceless and listing in space.

How do you envisage this not happening to Infinity again?

And as I side note, the UNSC is not OP after Halo 3.

The Evolutions novel included a transcript post 2553 stating that the Human military has never been weaker then it is right now then since the dawn of Hunan slip-space travel centuries earlier.

The UNSC is just one very large and costly egg in one very spacious basket right now.

That was the pre-Infinity fleet. We now have the post infinity fleet where that one ship can just ram through CCS cruisers like they are nothing.
I agree that sounds ridiculous, but yeah UNSC Infinity is more OP than the USS Enterprise, Millennium Falcon, and Babylon 5 put together.

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7/18/2019

EvilKeny28

Marine - Onyx

timh1990 wrote:
Marinealver wrote:
Given how in H4 and after the UNSC is just so OP right now, Infinity hands down. Not even Truth's Dreadnought would stand a chance. That thing could destroy all of the Fleet of Particular Justice and High Charity without flinching.
How...?

The Fleet of Particular Justice decisively defeated the USNC on multiple occasions during the war, and Truth’s dreadnaught seemed to single handily smash Earth’s home fleet.

Infinity by comparison got crippled at Oth Lodon by a single Covenant space station about 1/5 its overall length.

Covenant capital ships all the way up the CSO-class Super Carrier are going to be stuffed to the rafters with even bigger versions of this weapon that we’ve already seen are more then capable of crippling Infinity to the point that its left defenceless and listing in space.

How do you envisage this not happening to Infinity again?

And as I side note, the UNSC is not OP after Halo 3.

The Evolutions novel included a transcript post 2553 stating that the Human military has never been weaker then it is right now then since the dawn of Hunan slip-space travel centuries earlier.

The UNSC is just one very large and costly egg in one very spacious basket right now.

It has been stated in the Halo 4: The Essential Visual Guide that the assault carrier Song of Retribution (which was claimed to be a powerful example of such a carrier by a 343 employee) was outmatched in arsenal by Infinity.

So even if those capital ships were capable of crippling Infinity as easily as the ODP, Infinity would just as easily be able to do the same if not more easily considering that human energy shields are also more powerful than their covenant equivalents.

Infinity and its escorts have faced Jul's fleet and despite being heavily outnumbered as well as Jul having 2 assault carriers Infinity was never severely damaged. Even during Spartan Ops when Infinity was boarded Jul never used this opportunity to engage Infinity with his full fleet. This tells me that despite his forces Jul did not believe his chances of victory were high.

I've always found the that part of Escalations strange as Infinity has faced potentially far more firepower before and was never damaged that significantly. One could chalk it up to a low end inconsistency for Infinity. Its also possible that Infinity's shields were down for whatever reason and that coupled with the ODP firing to the point it overheated could help make sense of the situation in light of previous material.

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7/18/2019

TheDeathSummer

Recruit - Onyx

EvilKeny28 wrote:
timh1990 wrote:
Marinealver wrote:
I've always found the that part of Escalations strange as Infinity has faced potentially far more firepower before and was never damaged that significantly. One could chalk it up to a low end inconsistency for Infinity. Its also possible that Infinity's shields were down for whatever reason and that coupled with the ODP firing to the point it overheated could help make sense of the situation in light of previous material.

Indeed, there are too many unknowns to assume that Oth Lodon scene represents Infinity's true durability.

We've never seen or heard of this weapon before and we haven't seen it since. What's more, it acts nothing like the Energy Projector the Covenant usually use and it's manned almost entirely by Humans. How do we know this was even a Covenant weapon at all, and not just another one of the UNSC's seemingly infinite post war superweapons that the insurrectionists stole or made?

Even If we assume it is a Covenant weapon due to the colour and design, how do we know it scales to the rest of the Covenants weaponry? Like I said, we've never seen this weapon before, so for all we know it could outclass literally everything else the Covenant have by multiple orders of magnitude. Hood actually describes the weapon as being able to "melt a continent". While this was almost certainly more off-the-cuff hyperbole that Hood is famous for, this is honestly the only canon statement we have in regards to this guns potency.

Technically you could scale the gun up to the CSO, but it also doesn't help that unlike, say, Mass Effect, Halo has never established a "Bigger = Better" policy. If anything it's implied the opposite, that size matters not a bit, with a 300 Meter RCS demolishing the Commonwealth, or the 3 Kilometer Sniper Ship outclassing a 5 Kilometer CAS and gutting a 4 Kilometer Punic and then a 1 Kilometer Pillar of Autumn coming along and destroying said Sniper Ship, or the Spear of Light destroying 2 larger Covenant ships during the Battle of High Charity.

There's also some extenuating circumstances here, for one, some strange tactics were displayed by the Infinity during that little encounter. The one skeptics usually bring up is the one EvilKenny also did, that there was no shield flare when the Plasma pierced the Infinity. While It's definitely eyebrow raising, there have been multiple instances of ships that DO have active shielding whilst having no visual indication of it (in the same comic no less). You'd never know High Charity had shields if you just watched Halo 2 and 3's cinematics for example. When you combine this with there being no mention of the Infinity's shields being lowered, Occam's Razor says we should assume Infinitys shields were active, so I have to disagree with this particular point.

What I found much more strange about was why was the Infinity parked was so damn close to the Station? If this random turret truly was such a massive threat to the Pride of Humanity, why didn't Hood just order the Infinity to stay back at least a few thousand Kilometers in case they needed to dodge? And, it's quite strange that the first shot of the alleged Energy Projector pretty much one-shotted the Infinity, only to have the following two shots seemingly not even scratch the paint.

I think context is also important regarding this "Feat". This event came from a poorly written, widely hated comic, that also has a UNSC marine knocking out a Spartan with the butt of his gun, that has a UNSC knife penetrating the Didacts armour, that lists Kelly as the sniper and Linda as the Runner, and last but not least, the Infinity and it's ten stridents giving a flogging to two CAS's and some fifty RCS's/CCS's. While the last one isn't nearly as much a contradiction as the others (it actually lines up quite nicely with most other showings of post war UNSC), it absolutely does not make sense if we assume that each of the some 50 ships has weapons equivalent (or far greater) to the Oth Lodon gun. It we take that comic seriously, we have to assume there are outliers, otherwise the whole thing falls apart.

One last thing I'd like to mention is that during one of the final cinematics for Spartan Ops, the Infinity's shielding actually briefly tanked a Supernova. Just like Oth Lodon, I like to think of this as nothing more than a poorly written outlier, rather than a representation of the Infinitys shielding, because otherwise nothing about the Infinity makes sense anymore. With Oth Lodon you have the Infinity being ridiculously weak, and with the Supernova you have the Infinity being borderline invincible, so much so that 10,000 mint condition Covenant Ships (CSO Super Carriers included) could fire every gun they have at the Infinity nonstop for an entire year, and they still wouldn't be able to bring down the shields that tanked a Supernova.

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7/21/2019

timh1990

Marine - Silver

EvilKeny28 wrote:
timh1990 wrote:
Marinealver wrote:
Given how in H4 and after the UNSC is just so OP right now, Infinity hands down. Not even Truth's Dreadnought would stand a chance. That thing could destroy all of the Fleet of Particular Justice and High Charity without flinching.
How...?

The Fleet of Particular Justice decisively defeated the USNC on multiple occasions during the war, and Truth’s dreadnaught seemed to single handily smash Earth’s home fleet.

Infinity by comparison got crippled at Oth Lodon by a single Covenant space station about 1/5 its overall length.

Covenant capital ships all the way up the CSO-class Super Carrier are going to be stuffed to the rafters with even bigger versions of this weapon that we’ve already seen are more then capable of crippling Infinity to the point that its left defenceless and listing in space.

How do you envisage this not happening to Infinity again?

And as I side note, the UNSC is not OP after Halo 3.

The Evolutions novel included a transcript post 2553 stating that the Human military has never been weaker then it is right now then since the dawn of Hunan slip-space travel centuries earlier.

The UNSC is just one very large and costly egg in one very spacious basket right now.
It has been stated in the Halo 4: The Essential Visual Guide that the assault carrier Song of Retribution (which was claimed to be a powerful example of such a carrier by a 343 employee) was outmatched in arsenal by Infinity.

So even if those capital ships were capable of crippling Infinity as easily as the ODP, Infinity would just as easily be able to do the same if not more easily considering that human energy shields are also more powerful than their covenant equivalents.

Infinity and its escorts have faced Jul's fleet and despite being heavily outnumbered as well as Jul having 2 assault carriers Infinity was never severely damaged. Even during Spartan Ops when Infinity was boarded Jul never used this opportunity to engage Infinity with his full fleet. This tells me that despite his forces Jul did not believe his chances of victory were high.

I've always found the that part of Escalations strange as Infinity has faced potentially far more firepower before and was never damaged that significantly. One could chalk it up to a low end inconsistency for Infinity. Its also possible that Infinity's shields were down for whatever reason and that coupled with the ODP firing to the point it overheated could help make sense of the situation in light of previous material.

I’m somewhat sceptical of this quote, mainly because the Halo Visual Guide is just that, a Visual Guide and not a technical specification guide. (Would you use a cook book to study engineering or heart surgery)

I know the quote your specifically referencing, and the actual context it is used in is also suspect in my opinion.

From what I recall, the line reads ‘Jul may been reluctant’ which makes this an opinion from an observer rather then a statement of absaloute fact from a creator, as if this statement was true there would be no ‘may’ at all.

The author would know with 100% certainty Jul did not engage A because of Y because Jul is just a fictional character they (the author) are controlling.

It’s also curious that no mention is made in this statement that Jul could not have engaged Infinity in a direct battle without risking Doctor Hadley being killed as a result of him firing on Infinity, which we know factored into him not engaging Infinity directly.

And as a side note, one ship outgunning another does not necessarily make that ship better. Even if the Infinity MAC cannons pack a superior punch to Covenant energy projectors, MAC cannons by their very nature require line of sight both horizontally and vertically to hit its target. In Cole’s autobiography, it was directly stated that it took a UNSC cruiser 56 minutes of complex manoeuvres to line up a kill shot of a Insurrectionist ship, and they still missed. Covenant energy projectors on the other hand have full 360 degree fields of fire that cover both the ventral and dorsal sides of the ship, and travel at close to the speed of light.

For all we know Infinity could have the firepower of a Death Star tucked away in its MAC cannons, but all that firepower is useless a Covenant ship can line up a kill shot a hundred times faster?

Also, what makes you think human energy shielding is superior to Covenant energy shielding. If this argument is based of the MC MJOLNIR having stronger shielding then Sangheili infantry posses, then your not taking into account that MJOLNIR armour costs the equivalent of a small starship to produce. By comparison, Sangheili energy shielding is cheap enough to produce that even an irregular force like Jul’Mdama’s Remnant can equip every Sangheili with it while UNSC marines still have to make do with ballistic vests and helmets.

Pouring vastly larger volumes of resource and raw materials into a project to produce an product that is slightly better then what your competitor can produce at a fraction of the effort is not an example of superior technology.

It’s an example of false economy, and it lost Germany the Eastern front during WW2.

In relation to Infinity and it’s support fleet surviving 2 fleet engagements with Covenant Fleets including CAS-class Assault Carriers(Second Battle of Requiem and Atkis), as I’ve already stated in both cases the Covenant couldn’t engage Infinity directly in either battle. There objective at Requiem was to capture Hasley alive, and there objective at Atkis was to take the Janus Key from the UNSC in tact.

Both of these objectives are on Infinity, which rules out a direct engagement on the Covenant’s side. In an engagement with a CSO Super Carrier, this ship isn’t going to be pulling its punches and we already know a Covenant Space Station 1/25 a CSO’s length is fully capable of crippling Infinity.

I’m sorry but how any one can think Infinity is going into this battle with an advantage is beyond me!

As for Oth Lodon, as I’ve already stated on every occasion before when Infinity faced a Covenant warship if comparable size and firepower there was a factor preventing the Covenant commander engaging Infinity with the full firepower at their disposal.

And there is no justifiable reason that Infinity’s shields should have been down at Oth Lodon. They knew exactly what was waiting for them in the system, and Hood was actually in communication with the human rebel commander, who identified himself as a enemy of the UNSC.

Pretty sure I could have made and drank a cup of coffee in that time, so there is absolutely no reason Infinity crew should not have raised their energy shielding in that time.

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7/26/2019

EvilKeny28

Marine - Onyx

timh1990 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
timh1990 wrote:
Marinealver wrote:
Given how in H4 and after the UNSC is just so OP right now, Infinity hands down. Not even Truth's Dreadnought would stand a chance. That thing could destroy all of the Fleet of Particular Justice and High Charity without flinching.
Pretty sure I could have made and drank a cup of coffee in that time, so there is absolutely no reason Infinity crew should not have raised their energy shielding in that time.

Comparing the visual guide to a cookbook for engineering/surgery is just debating with bad faith. Its not even close to being an equivalence.
The very fact that Jul was 'reluctant' is evidence that his forces were not guarantied to win against Infinity despite his overwhelming numerical advantage.

There was a time were Infinity did not have Dr. Halsey on board. Jul didn't attack the Infinity then.
After he kidnapped Halsey, Jul didn't order his forces to destroy Infinity despite it's having been boarded.
The fact the Jul never took more than he absolutely required hints at the idea that Jul wasn't sure his forces would prevail or that the cost would be too high.

The main reason why there are differences in cost equivalence is that for one the technology isn't new and their manufacturing capabilities surpass the UNSC while for the other the tech is cutting edge and expensive. That's why only the major assets have energy shields such as Spartans and Infinity.
Im not saying it is the deciding factor in the engagement, but it is a point that I thought had enough merit to be brought to the discussion.

While you are right that at Aktis Jul's goal wasn't the destruction of Infinity but if his forces were strong enough he could have disabled the ship instead, yet he was unable to do so.

Ultimately I still find the scene at Odon to be strangely out of balance with the rest of the extended universe.
TheDeathSummer brings up some good points about the internal inconsistencies of Escalation as well as Infinities low and high end feats.

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8/5/2019

timh1990

Marine - Silver

EvilKeny28 wrote:
timh1990 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
timh1990 wrote:
Marinealver wrote:
Given how in H4 and after the UNSC is just so OP right now, Infinity hands down. Not even Truth's Dreadnought would stand a chance. That thing could destroy all of the Fleet of Particular Justice and High Charity without flinching.
Pretty sure I could have made and drank a cup of coffee in that time, so there is absolutely no reason Infinity crew should not have raised their energy shielding in that time.
Comparing the visual guide to a cookbook for engineering/surgery is just debating with bad faith. Its not even close to being an equivalence.
The very fact that Jul was 'reluctant' is evidence that his forces were not guarantied to win against Infinity despite his overwhelming numerical advantage.

There was a time were Infinity did not have Dr. Halsey on board. Jul didn't attack the Infinity then.
After he kidnapped Halsey, Jul didn't order his forces to destroy Infinity despite it's having been boarded.
The fact the Jul never took more than he absolutely required hints at the idea that Jul wasn't sure his forces would prevail or that the cost would be too high.

The main reason why there are differences in cost equivalence is that for one the technology isn't new and their manufacturing capabilities surpass the UNSC while for the other the tech is cutting edge and expensive. That's why only the major assets have energy shields such as Spartans and Infinity.
Im not saying it is the deciding factor in the engagement, but it is a point that I thought had enough merit to be brought to the discussion.

While you are right that at Aktis Jul's goal wasn't the destruction of Infinity but if his forces were strong enough he could have disabled the ship instead, yet he was unable to do so.

Ultimately I still find the scene at Odon to be strangely out of balance with the rest of the extended universe.
TheDeathSummer brings up some good points about the internal inconsistencies of Escalation as well as Infinities low and high end feats.

In real life when militaries and governments map out the criteria for war-games or actually go to war, do you really think they use artistic impressions alone when deciding if a Nimitz-class Carrier is at risk from enemy attack submarines or supersonic aircraft that an enemy state may possess? I’m genuinely sorry you think me comparing the use a single unsupported line of text from an unknown source in a Visual Guide to being of the same worth as a cook book is debating in bad faith but the fact remains that Visual Guide is not a technical specification manual!

As for Jul’s reluctance to engage Infinity, Jul physically disabled Infinity before Hasley came on the scene. If he considered this ship such a threat, then why would he not simply have opened up on Infinity with his numerically superior forces when the ship was incapable of raising its shields or firing its weapons in defence?

Could it not be because he honestly did not consider Infinity a threat to his flagship? For all it’s supposed superiority the Infinity never actually attempted to engage Jul’s flagship and decapitate his forces when it had the chance.

I still don’t understand why you think Infinity would have superior energy shielding to a CAS much less a colossal CSO Super Carrier.

We’ve already seen that Infinity defences are incapable of stopping a single energy projector ripping through one side of the hull to the other in a single shot. By comparison I don’t think Covenant energy shielding could provide worse protection against Infinity’s MAC then Infinity’s shields did against the main anti-ship weapon virtually all Covenant warships are armed with.

That is just speculation mind you. Having never seen Infinity’s MAC’s fired in anger against a Covenant warship, for all we know they could just create minimal damage to the hull as they did on MA. As you’ve already stated, this is new tech for the UNSC which in my opinion would mean it would not be up to the standard level of competence Covenant tech would be.

The Infinity got crippled at Oth Lodon by a Covenant energy projector 1/5 its size. All the ships supposedly superior defences and weapon systems proved worthless in preventing this.

It happened, I don’t know what else either of us can say on the matter.

As much as I hated The Last Jedi film because nothing anyone did made any tactical sense, it’s canon now.

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8/6/2019

EvilKeny28

Marine - Onyx

timh1990 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
timh1990 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
timh1990 wrote:
Marinealver wrote:
Given how in H4 and after the UNSC is just so OP right now, Infinity hands down. Not even Truth's Dreadnought would stand a chance. That thing could destroy all of the Fleet of Particular Justice and High Charity without flinching.
Pretty sure I could have made and drank a cup of coffee in that time, so there is absolutely no reason Infinity crew should not have raised their energy shielding in that time.
Comparing the visual guide to a cookbook for engineering/surgery is just debating with bad faith. Its not even close to being an equivalence.
The very fact that Jul was 'reluctant' is evidence that his forces were not guarantied to win against Infinity despite his overwhelming numerical advantage.

There was a time were Infinity did not have Dr. Halsey on board. Jul didn't attack the Infinity then.
After he kidnapped Halsey, Jul didn't order his forces to destroy Infinity despite it's having been boarded.
The fact the Jul never took more than he absolutely required hints at the idea that Jul wasn't sure his forces would prevail or that the cost would be too high.

The main reason why there are differences in cost equivalence is that for one the technology isn't new and their manufacturing capabilities surpass the UNSC while for the other the tech is cutting edge and expensive. That's why only the major assets have energy shields such as Spartans and Infinity.
Im not saying it is the deciding factor in the engagement, but it is a point that I thought had enough merit to be brought to the discussion.

While you are right that at Aktis Jul's goal wasn't the destruction of Infinity but if his forces were strong enough he could have disabled the ship instead, yet he was unable to do so.

Ultimately I still find the scene at Odon to be strangely out of balance with the rest of the extended universe.
TheDeathSummer brings up some good points about the internal inconsistencies of Escalation as well as Infinities low and high end feats.
In real life when militaries and governments map out the criteria for war-games or actually go to war, do you really think they use artistic impressions alone when deciding if a Nimitz-class Carrier is at risk from enemy attack submarines or supersonic aircraft that an enemy state may possess? I’m genuinely sorry you think me comparing the use a single unsupported line of text from an unknown source in a Visual Guide to being of the same worth as a cook book is debating in bad faith but the fact remains that Visual Guide is not a technical specification manual!

As for Jul’s reluctance to engage Infinity, Jul physically disabled Infinity before Hasley came on the scene. If he considered this ship such a threat, then why would he not simply have opened up on Infinity with his numerically superior forces when the ship was incapable of raising its shields or firing its weapons in defence?

Could it not be because he honestly did not consider Infinity a threat to his flagship? For all it’s supposed superiority the Infinity never actually attempted to engage Jul’s flagship and decapitate his forces when it had the chance.

I still don’t understand why you think Infinity would have superior energy shielding to a CAS much less a colossal CSO Super Carrier.

We’ve already seen that Infinity defences are incapable of stopping a single energy projector ripping through one side of the hull to the other in a single shot. By comparison I don’t think Covenant energy shielding could provide worse protection against Infinity’s MAC then Infinity’s shields did against the main anti-ship weapon virtually all Covenant warships are armed with.

That is just speculation mind you. Having never seen Infinity’s MAC’s fired in anger against a Covenant warship, for all we know they could just create minimal damage to the hull as they did on MA. As you’ve already stated, this is new tech for the UNSC which in my opinion would mean it would not be up to the standard level of competence Covenant tech would be.

The Infinity got crippled at Oth Lodon by a Covenant energy projector 1/5 its size. All the ships supposedly superior defences and weapon systems proved worthless in preventing this.

It happened, I don’t know what else either of us can say on the matter.

As much as I hated The Last Jedi film because nothing anyone did made any tactical sense, it’s canon now.

There are no Halo technical manuals that go in incredible detail to be fair.

Infinity was no disabled prior to Halsey's arrival, only immobilised. It could still fire it's weapons.
If Infinity was not much of a threat then did he not simply destroy Infinity? It would have robbed humanity of its strongest weapon and gotten rid of a thorn in his side. So either Jul is more incompetent that I thought or he deemed an attack on Infinity to not be worth the risk.

While infinity may not have ever destroyed any of Jul's CASs, the mere fact that it survived multiple engagements against the much greater numeral forces of Jul is a feat in of itself.

Like I said before, the UNSC has already created more advanced shielding technology than the Covenant. This is covered in the novels Fall of Reach and First Strike. An ONI officer even killed the huragok that repaired John's suit in order to prevent the Covenant from obtaining the upgrades. While it isn't stated that Infinity shields are stronger than a CAS's, logically this should be case. However until we actually get confirmation this is all speculation.
I never said Infinity's shields were stronger than a Super Carrier. I only meant pound for pound.

I've already said all I care to say about the Orbital platform situation, and honestly I feel like our arguments are going around in circles.
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this topic and wait until we get more information from futur Halo media about Infinity's capabilities.

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