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UNSC vs Mass Effect Universe

OP ui876will

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ChasCT2 wrote:
ui876will wrote:
Alright,I saw that people closed the "Halo vs Mass Effect" thread,so I'm opening this new one.
Can the UNSC with it's full might defeat all races from the Mass Effect Universe (except the Reapers)?
Superior firepower? Because biggatons has always been the decisive factor behind any successful war, am I right?

Superior logistics/industrial capabilities? Lets do some basic economics - you've got a Pre-War humanity that has 800 colonies of varying strengths, populations and exporting industries, bringing in an estimated 39 billion people (Dr Halsey's journal). Then you have a Post-War humanity numbering dozens of colonies (some isolated, some populated - Earth is still the biggest cheese) and an estimated thirteen billion total as of circa 2553 (Palace Hotel/Halo: Encyclopedia).

In comparison, you have a CC with a population demographic that is repeatedly mentioned as "being in the trillions" and covering "roughly 1% of the galaxy".

To recap... you are comparing 13 - 39 billion people and 60 - 800 colonies to trillions of people (it does include dozens of species) who encompass 500 million (0.5%) - 2 billion systems (1%).Pre-War transportation and communication was sluggish, due to limits in light-travel and FTL velocities - Harvest was the breadbasket for the entire UEG (and entirely supplied the Inner Colonies with the sustenance necessary to continue expanding at the rate they were) and its been acknowledged that there were riots during the Insurrection that were caused by a lack of food and needed supplies in certain regions of space (It wasn't just limited to conflicts of differing ideology)... as Halo: Evolutions made it clear - it was incredibly difficult to maintain control over colonies due to many unfortunate restrictions that understandably come with long-range distances. The UNSC also had obvious limits to what they could supply or not, with organizations like the CMA undergoing budget cuts and supply issues as time progressed (like in the real world... there is only just enough money and resources to go around) - I'm referring to the period of time before Operation: VERITAS.

Lets take a quick look at the UNSC's War economy (the period of time that encompasses First Contact to the Battle of Earth): I would also like to point out the greatest changes came in the form of reactor efficiency (2525 fusion reactors only have a tenth of the power output of their end-war counterparts, good stuff!), augmentation technology, and communications; all of which would see common use towards the end. I remember that Halo: Fleet Battles mentioned that entire fleets were also being produced in the beginning, just as fast as they were being destroyed - in Halo: Evolutions, there were bank reserves full of gold that could help the war effort (meaning the economy was still rolling!). Thats impressive for sure, definitely a testament to their industrial capabilities at the beginning of any large conflict...

But the Post-War scenario is entirely different. You have to realize that the loss of two-thirds of your population and seven hundred worlds is really gonna mess up your economy, even the most optimistic projections (read: propaganda) wouldn't be able to hide that kind of problem. You're no longer funding those big endeavors like you did thirty years ago, monetary matters will monitored at all times by A.Is and economic savants – with the hopes that no random factor will jump into the equation and suddenly disrupt the very delicate foundation that you stand on.

And with the SPARTAN branch and UNSC Infinity consuming resources like nothing else... you're gonna see an appropriate change to the way you conduct Force Projection operations (You can see this reflected on by the expansion of the SPARTAN program, ONI's greater influence, and the Strident-class Frigate's status as the backbone of the entire Navy) that will reflect on the nature of your economic state. So while the UNSC has the capability to effectively function in the Post-War galaxy, they can only operate in a limited capacity in their immediate sphere of influence - technological progression not withstanding. Waging another conflict against any powerful galactic polity for any period of time would reasonably destroy human society (see: Halo 5 - Rise of the Evil A.I).

So essentially - compromise between power by quantity (Pre-War)... or power by quality (Post-War). Both have drawbacks.Meanwhile, on the other end, individual polities (asari, turian, salarian, geth, quarians, ME humans, etc) in the same universe could maintain thousands of warships each when a cataclysmic force like the Reapers showed up. Not logistical craft... but dedicated warships like we see throughout the games and books. This goes without saying, the entire CC were managing an incredibly monumental movement (and investigations/ minor conflicts - see: Task Force Aurora) spanning all sections of space... despite numerous races (Turians, Humans, Batarians) losing their home systems in the initial attack.

Within the six months that Shepard was locked up - the entire galaxy was retrofitting their ships with cutting-edge technology (Thanix Cannons, CBTs, silaris armor, ultraviolet-GARDIAN columns, stealth tech [some ships even had the means of travelling to Andromeda!]). Hell, some guy in this thread mentioned earlier that Citadel Council have no form of planetary/orbital defenses - except that only one year prior to the invasion by Reapers, it was confirmed that cities to entire colonies had already incorporated kinetic barriers to protect themselves from Kinetic Kill Vehicles. Then you have all kinds of planetary defenses that were being handed out in ME2 to distant colonies in the Terminus Systems. The scale of their economy, is stupidly great - even before the events of ME1, you had asari and human venture capitalists funding Femitrons half the size of Halos!

To summarize - The UNSC at their greatest, would represent only a fraction of a single Citadel Race's GDP.Superior A.I technology? So you must have made an comparative analysis between each respective universe's virtual polymorphic agents - their ability to process knowledge, analyze, reason, learn - overall capabilities (including the evaluation of info-warfare techniques) since you agree with his usage of "superior".

Humor me, how did you come to this conclusion - when one of the ME races (two actually) is a literal race of A.Is?Superior shielding? You also agree with this? Feel free to quantify that - how effective are the shields of a strident-class frigate against other kinetic projectiles or DEWs in the post-war universe? How about the Pre-War UNSC - who have no shielding whatsoever?

You, like many others, haven't even offered a cursory analysis since your entrance into this debate
One thing here. You're fleet size estimates are not correct it states that each race was limited to how many ships they could have based on a treaty in the ME universe.
Wrong, the Treaty of Farixen only applies to Dreadnoughts allowing the Council races to build as many Cruisers, Frigates, Destroyers, or Corvettes they want.
Right but its been previously stated in one of these threads that the only ship the ME universe would have that could kill the UNSC would be dreadnoughts bringing us to the point that the ME universe wouldnt have the numbers to win.
SCM74862 wrote:
I'm just going to put this here, as a monument to all our sins.

Nah, but seriously, sorry if someone has linked this already. Just found it on YouTube. A good example of how it'd most likely go down:

Link
That's a CSO though. The UNSC does not currently own a CSO, nor have they ever owned a CSO (though they might be able to lay claim to the Long Night of Solace's wreckage, provided it's still there on Reach and hasn't been either salvaged by the Covenant or glassed by the same (re: asset denial))..
Oh your right haha. I didnt realize the title of this thread was UNSC vs Mass Effect. Thought it was just Halo vs Mass Effect. Whoops.

That what I get for not paying attention....
ChasCT2 wrote:
ui876will wrote:
Alright,I saw that people closed the "Halo vs Mass Effect" thread,so I'm opening this new one.
Can the UNSC with it's full might defeat all races from the Mass Effect Universe (except the Reapers)?
Superior firepower? Because biggatons has always been the decisive factor behind any successful war, am I right?

Superior logistics/industrial capabilities? Lets do some basic economics - you've got a Pre-War humanity that has 800 colonies of varying strengths, populations and exporting industries, bringing in an estimated 39 billion people (Dr Halsey's journal). Then you have a Post-War humanity numbering dozens of colonies (some isolated, some populated - Earth is still the biggest cheese) and an estimated thirteen billion total as of circa 2553 (Palace Hotel/Halo: Encyclopedia).

In comparison, you have a CC with a population demographic that is repeatedly mentioned as "being in the trillions" and covering "roughly 1% of the galaxy".

To recap... you are comparing 13 - 39 billion people and 60 - 800 colonies to trillions of people (it does include dozens of species) who encompass 500 million (0.5%) - 2 billion systems (1%).Pre-War transportation and communication was sluggish, due to limits in light-travel and FTL velocities - Harvest was the breadbasket for the entire UEG (and entirely supplied the Inner Colonies with the sustenance necessary to continue expanding at the rate they were) and its been acknowledged that there were riots during the Insurrection that were caused by a lack of food and needed supplies in certain regions of space (It wasn't just limited to conflicts of differing ideology)... as Halo: Evolutions made it clear - it was incredibly difficult to maintain control over colonies due to many unfortunate restrictions that understandably come with long-range distances. The UNSC also had obvious limits to what they could supply or not, with organizations like the CMA undergoing budget cuts and supply issues as time progressed (like in the real world... there is only just enough money and resources to go around) - I'm referring to the period of time before Operation: VERITAS.

Lets take a quick look at the UNSC's War economy (the period of time that encompasses First Contact to the Battle of Earth): I would also like to point out the greatest changes came in the form of reactor efficiency (2525 fusion reactors only have a tenth of the power output of their end-war counterparts, good stuff!), augmentation technology, and communications; all of which would see common use towards the end. I remember that Halo: Fleet Battles mentioned that entire fleets were also being produced in the beginning, just as fast as they were being destroyed - in Halo: Evolutions, there were bank reserves full of gold that could help the war effort (meaning the economy was still rolling!). Thats impressive for sure, definitely a testament to their industrial capabilities at the beginning of any large conflict...

But the Post-War scenario is entirely different. You have to realize that the loss of two-thirds of your population and seven hundred worlds is really gonna mess up your economy, even the most optimistic projections (read: propaganda) wouldn't be able to hide that kind of problem. You're no longer funding those big endeavors like you did thirty years ago, monetary matters will monitored at all times by A.Is and economic savants – with the hopes that no random factor will jump into the equation and suddenly disrupt the very delicate foundation that you stand on.

And with the SPARTAN branch and UNSC Infinity consuming resources like nothing else... you're gonna see an appropriate change to the way you conduct Force Projection operations (You can see this reflected on by the expansion of the SPARTAN program, ONI's greater influence, and the Strident-class Frigate's status as the backbone of the entire Navy) that will reflect on the nature of your economic state. So while the UNSC has the capability to effectively function in the Post-War galaxy, they can only operate in a limited capacity in their immediate sphere of influence - technological progression not withstanding. Waging another conflict against any powerful galactic polity for any period of time would reasonably destroy human society (see: Halo 5 - Rise of the Evil A.I).

So essentially - compromise between power by quantity (Pre-War)... or power by quality (Post-War). Both have drawbacks.Meanwhile, on the other end, individual polities (asari, turian, salarian, geth, quarians, ME humans, etc) in the same universe could maintain thousands of warships each when a cataclysmic force like the Reapers showed up. Not logistical craft... but dedicated warships like we see throughout the games and books. This goes without saying, the entire CC were managing an incredibly monumental movement (and investigations/ minor conflicts - see: Task Force Aurora) spanning all sections of space... despite numerous races (Turians, Humans, Batarians) losing their home systems in the initial attack.

Within the six months that Shepard was locked up - the entire galaxy was retrofitting their ships with cutting-edge technology (Thanix Cannons, CBTs, silaris armor, ultraviolet-GARDIAN columns, stealth tech [some ships even had the means of travelling to Andromeda!]). Hell, some guy in this thread mentioned earlier that Citadel Council have no form of planetary/orbital defenses - except that only one year prior to the invasion by Reapers, it was confirmed that cities to entire colonies had already incorporated kinetic barriers to protect themselves from Kinetic Kill Vehicles. Then you have all kinds of planetary defenses that were being handed out in ME2 to distant colonies in the Terminus Systems. The scale of their economy, is stupidly great - even before the events of ME1, you had asari and human venture capitalists funding Femitrons half the size of Halos!

To summarize - The UNSC at their greatest, would represent only a fraction of a single Citadel Race's GDP.Superior A.I technology? So you must have made an comparative analysis between each respective universe's virtual polymorphic agents - their ability to process knowledge, analyze, reason, learn - overall capabilities (including the evaluation of info-warfare techniques) since you agree with his usage of "superior".

Humor me, how did you come to this conclusion - when one of the ME races (two actually) is a literal race of A.Is?Superior shielding? You also agree with this? Feel free to quantify that - how effective are the shields of a strident-class frigate against other kinetic projectiles or DEWs in the post-war universe? How about the Pre-War UNSC - who have no shielding whatsoever?

You, like many others, haven't even offered a cursory analysis since your entrance into this debate
Right but its been previously stated in one of these threads that the only ship the ME universe would have that could kill the UNSC would be dreadnoughts bringing us to the point that the ME universe wouldnt have the numbers to win.
Which none of Halo canon supports and is nothing but fan wank.

Furthermore, why are you assuming the treaty can not be lifted or that Mass Effect can't put their industry to work? Civilians can produce ships 3 times bigger than the Infinity with their own funding within a couple of years while the Infinity took over a decade with half of the navy's budget going into it. Just goes to show the sheer scale in difference doesn't it?
The Halo canon does indeed support that a single underpowered Frigate MAC is twice as powerful as the spinal cannon of a Mass Effect Dreadnought. This isn't to suggest that the ME universe couldn't kill UNSC ships, but that, relatively speaking, the ME universe is underpowered in space (they make up the disparity in having more ships to field).

Additionally, the ships that the Andromeda Initiative created are not armed, not armored for combat and were built with the combined resources from multiple peaceful galactic civilizations using mostly known technology. Infinity was constructed using unfamiliar prototype and experimental alien technology by a single civilization stuck on the defensive side of a genocidal total war.

Also, barring the mass relays, Mass Effect FTL is pitifully slow by comparison to the UNSC's and requires fueling in most situations. The Arks of the Initiative took over 600 years to reach Andromeda. Should they be so inclined, the Infinity could have made the same trip in about 7 years, at the lowest end, and 100 days at the highest end. And since they are unrestricted by Mass Relay transit, the UNSC can deploy and maneuver their forces faster and far more flexibly than any Mass Effect civilization.

The Relays also present the problem of bottlenecking. Even if we assume they can't be destroyed (they can), UNSC forces can be stationed to basically camp the Relays for ships exiting the gateways (its a legitimate strategy!). They inherently limit the positioning of Mass Effect forces around the galaxy, and should the UNSC be inclined to destroy them, they will handicap the Mass Effect races even more--in part for the devastation their destruction brings on star systems, and in part because they can effectively block access to entire regions of space wholesale, because most Mass Effect fleets require the relays to make long distance jumps.
SCM74862 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
Which none of Halo canon supports and is nothing but fan wank.

Furthermore, why are you assuming the treaty can not be lifted or that Mass Effect can't put their industry to work? Civilians can produce ships 3 times bigger than the Infinity with their own funding within a couple of years while the Infinity took over a decade with half of the navy's budget going into it. Just goes to show the sheer scale in difference doesn't it?
Im assuming this because even on the brink of total genocide commander Shepard had to play diplomat because they all wanted to protect themselves not help the galaxy as a whole. So forgive me for not putting my faith in the ability of the ME universe to magically become this big happy galactic family that will lend their resources to the cause. Furthermore when at all ever in the mass effect universe did a civilian build something bigger than the Infinity? The biggest ship talked about is the Destiny Ascension class dreadnought which is 4.5 kilometers smaller than the Infinity.
ROBERTO jh wrote:
The Halo canon does indeed support that a single underpowered Frigate MAC is twice as powerful as the spinal cannon of a Mass Effect Dreadnought. This isn't to suggest that the ME universe couldn't kill UNSC ships, but that, relatively speaking, the ME universe is underpowered in space (they make up the disparity in having more ships to field).

Additionally, the ships that the Andromeda Initiative created are not armed, not armored for combat and were built with the combined resources from multiple peaceful galactic civilizations using mostly known technology. Infinity was constructed using unfamiliar prototype and experimental alien technology by a single civilization stuck on the defensive side of a genocidal total war.

Also, barring the mass relays, Mass Effect FTL is pitifully slow by comparison to the UNSC's and requires fueling in most situations. The Arks of the Initiative took over 600 years to reach Andromeda. Should they be so inclined, the Infinity could have made the same trip in about 7 years, at the lowest end, and 100 days at the highest end. And since they are unrestricted by Mass Relay transit, the UNSC can deploy and maneuver their forces faster and far more flexibly than any Mass Effect civilization.

The Relays also present the problem of bottlenecking. Even if we assume they can't be destroyed (they can), UNSC forces can be stationed to basically camp the Relays for ships exiting the gateways (its a legitimate strategy!). They inherently limit the positioning of Mass Effect forces around the galaxy, and should the UNSC be inclined to destroy them, they will handicap the Mass Effect races even more--in part for the devastation their destruction brings on star systems, and in part because they can effectively block access to entire regions of space wholesale, because most Mass Effect fleets require the relays to make long distance jumps.
You mean The Fall of Reach, I assuming that anyways since fans love to flock to it for this, which puts MACs at their second highest velocity in the lore and doesn't actually specify the MAC round weight which invalidates your statement? Because you know, there is nothing that can be calculated for firepower as we do not have a weight for the round being fired. The only thing it does show is that a MAC is over a 100 times slower than a Mass Accelerator from an decade old out dated Dreadnought that was replaced. On top of that, that Dreadnought (Everest class) has a faster firing rate (every 5 seconds compared to several minutes back to full power shot) which gives it another edge. Furthermore any space combat between them would be widely in the Dreadnoughts' favor due to its mobility, its rounds velocity, and its range.

Also I would like to know where people got this idea that UNSC ships can only be killed by Dreadnoughts when we know that a single Archer missile can mission kill anything below a cruiser and that 343i has shown us that those missiles are basically tomahawks in firepower at Pre War era for the UNSC.

The Nexus and the Arks were part of the Andromeda Initiative which was funded exclusively by civilians out of their own interest to explore another galaxy, not backed by the Citadel Council or its client races.

The UNSC didn't begin studying Forerunner tech until near the end of the war as they did not have Huragok up until First Strike (Pre Halo 2) so still over a decade with just their own tech and resources.

Citadel FTL is slow compared to the UNSC? It's 15 light years a day while Pre War UNSC required over a month to travel 12 light years to their farthest colony. Post War UNSC is the only time they are faster but they are reduced to a few dozen colonies.

While the Relays do pose a dangerous kill zone for Citadel ships, they should be able to clear through them with relative ease either by simply swarming through with thousands of ships or sending anti matter bombs through to clear out UNSC ships.

SCM74862 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
Which none of Halo canon supports and is nothing but fan wank.

Furthermore, why are you assuming the treaty can not be lifted or that Mass Effect can't put their industry to work? Civilians can produce ships 3 times bigger than the Infinity with their own funding within a couple of years while the Infinity took over a decade with half of the navy's budget going into it. Just goes to show the sheer scale in difference doesn't it?
Im assuming this because even on the brink of total genocide commander Shepard had to play diplomat because they all wanted to protect themselves not help the galaxy as a whole. So forgive me for not putting my faith in the ability of the ME universe to magically become this big happy galactic family that will lend their resources to the cause. Furthermore when at all ever in the mass effect universe did a civilian build something bigger than the Infinity? The biggest ship talked about is the Destiny Ascension class dreadnought which is 4.5 kilometers smaller than the Infinity.
You mean against the Reapers who streamrolled through the Batarians and System Alliance so fast that they didn't know they were being invaded until Reapers made landfall? A single Sovereign class Reaper can slug off the combine firepower from a fleet because they didn't have enough Dreadnoughts to overwhelm its shields recharge rate and can one shot just about every non Reaper ship it hits. The UNSC doesn't possess no way near the numbers, doesn't have the durability or firepower, and doesn't have mind altering technology to incapacitate the leadership of their foes.

Furthermore, Shepard can only convinced them to help with the Crucible if he does that (Shepard's canon actions are up in the air). But if he doesn't the remains of the System Alliance builds it by themselves without any industry or planets to their name.

Mass Effect Andromeda has civilians buidling a ship bigger than the Infinity to explore another galaxy.
ROBERTO jh wrote:
The Halo canon does indeed support that a single underpowered Frigate MAC is twice as powerful as the spinal cannon of a Mass Effect Dreadnought.
The firepower disparity and effective range is much greater then what your simplified observation identifies: 600 ton * 30 km/s = 64 kilotons. It has greater muzzle energy then an Systems Alliance dreadnought, but lacks velocity and fire rate (the Commonwealth could only launch two slugs in fifteen minutes).

Meanwhile:

20 kilogram * 4025 km/s = 38 kilotons. It has lower muzzle energy then an UNSC Frigate, but makes it up for it through greater effective ranges and superior rate of fire (an Everest-class Dreadnought can launch one slug every two seconds). In one minute, an outdated dreadnought could dish out 1.140 megatons of destructive power.
ROBERTO jh wrote:
This isn't to suggest that the ME universe couldn't kill UNSC ships, but that, relatively speaking, the ME universe is underpowered in space (they make up the disparity in having more ships to field).
Hardly so. Hypervelocity impacts will kill all the same. Pre and War-era UNSC vessels will be mission killed by direct impacts from any ME MAC. UNSC warships in the meanwhile would be lucky to hit vessels with such extreme maneuverability and greater effective ranges in space-to-space combat, and will still have to contend with the kinetic barriers.
ROBERTO jh wrote:
Additionally, the ships that the Andromeda Initiative created are not armed, not armored for combat and were built with the combined resources from multiple peaceful galactic civilizations
It was a secret endeavor funded and spearheaded by a single billionaire. With funding by another billionaire, she had completed the project a whooping eleven years (out of twenty) ahead of schedule.
ROBERTO jh wrote:
using mostly known technology.
And?
ROBERTO jh wrote:
Infinity was constructed using unfamiliar prototype and experimental alien technology by a single civilization stuck on the defensive side of a genocidal total war.
Most of the experimental technology was not incorporated until after Trevelyan was founded and the Huragok maintence sections accelerated the construction milestones. The fault lies at the UNSC's feet for bolting on random alien artifacts to their ship under the hope it would work. Nevertheless, it had already and continued to consume half of the navy's budget for over a decade before it could begin its first space trials. Your comparing a private project by some eccentric, wealthy individuals (Andromeda Intiative) to the single most expensive government endeavor in that polity's history (Infinity).
ROBERTO jh wrote:
Also, barring the mass relays, Mass Effect FTL is pitifully slow by comparison to the UNSC's
"Also, barring the Forerunner and Covenant FTL drives, Halo FTL is pitifully slow by comparison to even ME* civilian vessels."

The only reason the UNSC isn't completely inferior, even in the post war city, is in no part due to the efforts of the Huragok.

*Research in Andromeda have revealed that plenty of space-faring civilizations get around the galaxy with modified Eezo-enhanced Alcubierre drives capable of achieving velocities comparable to Mass Relays.

Quote:
and requires fueling in most situations.
As does every ship in Halo? What, did you think the Infinity is using perpetual motion machines for sub-light travel?
ROBERTO jh wrote:
The Arks of the Initiative took over 600 years to reach Andromeda. Should they be so inclined, the Infinity could have made the same trip in about 7 years, at the lowest end, and 100 days at the highest end.
Not really. Even the Audacity, a vessel designed for the express purpose of travelling through the extragalactic void to a satellite galaxy required the crew to be put through stasis for the duration of the trip because of how long it took. It doesn't help that such a trip threatened to bankrupt the galaxy (slowing down slipspace travel to ungodly levels) in the process.
ROBERTO jh wrote:
And since they are unrestricted by Mass Relay transit, the UNSC can deploy and maneuver their forces faster and far more flexibly than any Mass Effect civilization.
Depends on your definition of "restricted". Mass Relays are a stragetic advantage that provides instantaneous access to any region in the galaxy, distance between Mass Relays is achieved through lower velocity FTL travel. Slipsapce FTL is a tactical advantage, good for short-term actions and reactive performance. In the big picture, relays are gonna make all the difference.
ROBERTO jh wrote:
The Relays also present the problem of bottlenecking. Even if we assume they can't be destroyed (they can), UNSC forces can be stationed to basically camp the Relays for ships exiting the gateways (its a legitimate strategy!).
This is all very familiar territory.

Mass Relays don't spawn ships into the same spot. They would have to establish orbital platforms with full 360 degree coverage around a sphere that has a radius of at least 7000 kilometers (ex. Joker mentioning a 7000km drift after a relay jump, or 100000km drift for an entire fleet). In addition, most ME systems maintain nexus points: large orbital platforms and deployment zones near relays. It would require an exorbitant amount of resources to fully police and lock down a relay. And again, thats assuming the UNSC could find them with no indication of their existence on their sensors (Cold objects are very hard to find, not to mention their not exactly a large celestial body either). Its like finding a single, special hay straw in a haystack. Except that single straw can bite you in the -Yoink- upon approach.
ChasCT2 wrote:
ROBERTO jh wrote:
The Halo canon does indeed support that a single underpowered Frigate MAC is twice as powerful as the spinal cannon of a Mass Effect Dreadnought. This isn't to suggest that the ME universe couldn't kill UNSC ships, but that, relatively speaking, the ME universe is underpowered in space (they make up the disparity in having more ships to field).

Additionally, the ships that the Andromeda Initiative created are not armed, not armored for combat and were built with the combined resources from multiple peaceful galactic civilizations using mostly known technology. Infinity was constructed using unfamiliar prototype and experimental alien technology by a single civilization stuck on the defensive side of a genocidal total war.

Also, barring the mass relays, Mass Effect FTL is pitifully slow by comparison to the UNSC's and requires fueling in most situations. The Arks of the Initiative took over 600 years to reach Andromeda. Should they be so inclined, the Infinity could have made the same trip in about 7 years, at the lowest end, and 100 days at the highest end. And since they are unrestricted by Mass Relay transit, the UNSC can deploy and maneuver their forces faster and far more flexibly than any Mass Effect civilization.

The Relays also present the problem of bottlenecking. Even if we assume they can't be destroyed (they can), UNSC forces can be stationed to basically camp the Relays for ships exiting the gateways (its a legitimate strategy!). They inherently limit the positioning of Mass Effect forces around the galaxy, and should the UNSC be inclined to destroy them, they will handicap the Mass Effect races even more--in part for the devastation their destruction brings on star systems, and in part because they can effectively block access to entire regions of space wholesale, because most Mass Effect fleets require the relays to make long distance jumps.
You mean The Fall of Reach, I assuming that anyways since fans love to flock to it for this, which puts MACs at their second highest velocity in the lore and doesn't actually specify the MAC round weight which invalidates your statement? Because you know, there is nothing that can be calculated for firepower as we do not have a weight for the round being fired. The only thing it does show is that a MAC is over a 100 times slower than a Mass Accelerator from an decade old out dated Dreadnought that was replaced. On top of that, that Dreadnought (Everest class) has a faster firing rate (every 5 seconds compared to several minutes back to full power shot) which gives it another edge. Furthermore any space combat between them would be widely in the Dreadnoughts' favor due to its mobility, its rounds velocity, and its range.

Also I would like to know where people got this idea that UNSC ships can only be killed by Dreadnoughts when we know that a single Archer missile can mission kill anything below a cruiser and that 343i has shown us that those missiles are basically tomahawks in firepower at Pre War era for the UNSC.

The Nexus and the Arks were part of the Andromeda Initiative which was funded exclusively by civilians out of their own interest to explore another galaxy, not backed by the Citadel Council or its client races.

The UNSC didn't begin studying Forerunner tech until near the end of the war as they did not have Huragok up until First Strike (Pre Halo 2) so still over a decade with just their own tech and resources.

Citadel FTL is slow compared to the UNSC? It's 15 light years a day while Pre War UNSC required over a month to travel 12 light years to their farthest colony. Post War UNSC is the only time they are faster but they are reduced to a few dozen colonies.

While the Relays do pose a dangerous kill zone for Citadel ships, they should be able to clear through them with relative ease either by simply swarming through with thousands of ships or sending anti matter bombs through to clear out UNSC ships.

SCM74862 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
Which none of Halo canon supports and is nothing but fan wank.

Furthermore, why are you assuming the treaty can not be lifted or that Mass Effect can't put their industry to work? Civilians can produce ships 3 times bigger than the Infinity with their own funding within a couple of years while the Infinity took over a decade with half of the navy's budget going into it. Just goes to show the sheer scale in difference doesn't it?
Im assuming this because even on the brink of total genocide commander Shepard had to play diplomat because they all wanted to protect themselves not help the galaxy as a whole. So forgive me for not putting my faith in the ability of the ME universe to magically become this big happy galactic family that will lend their resources to the cause. Furthermore when at all ever in the mass effect universe did a civilian build something bigger than the Infinity? The biggest ship talked about is the Destiny Ascension class dreadnought which is 4.5 kilometers smaller than the Infinity.
You mean against the Reapers who streamrolled through the Batarians and System Alliance so fast that they didn't know they were being invaded until Reapers made landfall? A single Sovereign class Reaper can slug off the combine firepower from a fleet because they didn't have enough Dreadnoughts to overwhelm its shields recharge rate and can one shot just about every non Reaper ship it hits. The UNSC doesn't possess no way near the numbers, doesn't have the durability or firepower, and doesn't have mind altering technology to incapacitate the leadership of their foes.

Furthermore, Shepard can only convinced them to help with the Crucible if he does that (Shepard's canon actions are up in the air). But if he doesn't the remains of the System Alliance builds it by themselves without any industry or planets to their name.

Mass Effect Andromeda has civilians buidling a ship bigger than the Infinity to explore another galaxy.
The nexus is indeed bigger however that is intended to be a space station where as the arks are the same size as the destiny ascension which would be around 1.5 kilometers making it still 4.5 kilometers smaller than the Infinity. The UNSC has cruisers and heavy cruisers that are routinely the same size as the destiny ascension and that are shielded post covenant war. While they may not have the sheer numbers the ME universe has the UNSC could out tank the ME universe. Not to mention the fact the largest ships they are making are for exploration purposes and not for combat purposes and not even in our universe anymore. If a battle happened the fact that the ME universe is capable of building a ship as big as the Infinity is irrelevant because they don't have one now. Also what makes you think the UNSC would stay close enough to the Relays to get caught up by antimatter bombs which would be the obvious thing to do if you are the ME universe and know that the UNSC post war could effectively be waiting on you at each relay. I would send bombs through first if it was me just saying.
ChasCT2 wrote:
ROBERTO jh wrote:
-snip-
-snip-

ChasCT2 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
Which none of Halo canon supports and is nothing but fan wank.

Furthermore, why are you assuming the treaty can not be lifted or that Mass Effect can't put their industry to work? Civilians can produce ships 3 times bigger than the Infinity with their own funding within a couple of years while the Infinity took over a decade with half of the navy's budget going into it. Just goes to show the sheer scale in difference doesn't it?
-snip-
The nexus is indeed bigger however that is intended to be a space station
It's a mobile deployment facility designed for isolated, long-term habitation and research. The applications for military use should be pretty obvious, especially when similar facilities already exist for the exact purpose of serving a role as an FOB in the Mass Effect unvierse. The reference to the Nexus was to show that such endeavors are trivial, and it's construction can even be spearheaded by individual civilians.
where as the arks are the same size as the destiny ascension which would be around 1.5 kilometers making it still 4.5 kilometers smaller than the Infinity. The UNSC has cruisers and heavy cruisers that are routinely the same size as the destiny ascension and that are shielded post covenant war.
That's cute. Size doesn't matter. Mass does. The UNSC's heaviest cruisers (ex. Marathon-class) clock in at no more then 100,000 tons, while each Ark has a dry weight of 17,000,000 tons. Of course, anyone who know's anything would be able to point out the illogical discrepancy in UNSC starship weight (they're lighter then air), so let's be generous and give them another 0 for a whooping 1,000,000 tons (Marathon-class 'Heavy' Cruiser). Your typical Ark and 800 meter dreadnought will still out mass the largest UNSC ships by a magnitude, despite possessing completely radical (and slimmer) designs.
While they may not have the sheer numbers the ME universe has the UNSC could out tank the ME universe.
You have evidence of this... where exactly?
Not to mention the fact the largest ships they are making are for exploration purposes and not for combat purposes and not even in our universe anymore. If a battle happened the fact that the ME universe is capable of building a ship as big as the Infinity is irrelevant because they don't have one now.
Your comparing a peace time project by civilians to a multi-decade investment by a predominantly military government. The Citadel races will easily (if they haven't already) surpassed the UEG/UNSC wartime industry.
Also what makes you think the UNSC would stay close enough to the Relays to get caught up by antimatter bombs
Because that's precisely where their own weapons would actually become relevant? You don't want to get into a slugging match with the guys who have both the range and rate of fire on you.
which would be the obvious thing to do if you are the ME universe and know that the UNSC post war could effectively be waiting on you at each relay. I would send bombs through first if it was me just saying.
Antimatter bombs are typically reserved for surface targets, not ship-to-ship warfare because missiles that don't warp space and time are typically considered ineffective. That being said, the UNSC are screwed if facing targets coming from a relay anyhow since a large complement of UNSC forces and permanent observation posts would be necessary to identify ME strike groups arriving outside the effective range of most UNSC warships.
ChasCT2 wrote:
ROBERTO jh wrote:
-snip-
-snip-

ChasCT2 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
Which none of Halo canon supports and is nothing but fan wank.

Furthermore, why are you assuming the treaty can not be lifted or that Mass Effect can't put their industry to work? Civilians can produce ships 3 times bigger than the Infinity with their own funding within a couple of years while the Infinity took over a decade with half of the navy's budget going into it. Just goes to show the sheer scale in difference doesn't it?
-snip-
The nexus is indeed bigger however that is intended to be a space station
It's a mobile deployment facility designed for isolated, long-term habitation and research. The applications for military use should be pretty obvious, especially when similar facilities already exist for the exact purpose of serving a role as an FOB in the Mass Effect unvierse. The reference to the Nexus was to show that such endeavors are trivial, and it's construction can even be spearheaded by individual civilians.
where as the arks are the same size as the destiny ascension which would be around 1.5 kilometers making it still 4.5 kilometers smaller than the Infinity. The UNSC has cruisers and heavy cruisers that are routinely the same size as the destiny ascension and that are shielded post covenant war.
That's cute. Size doesn't matter. Mass does. The UNSC's heaviest cruisers (ex. Marathon-class) clock in at no more then 100,000 tons, while each Ark has a dry weight of 17,000,000 tons. Of course, anyone who know's anything would be able to point out the illogical discrepancy in UNSC starship weight (they're lighter then air), so let's be generous and give them another 0 for a whooping 1,000,000 tons (Marathon-class 'Heavy' Cruiser). Your typical Ark and 800 meter dreadnought will still out mass the largest UNSC ships by a magnitude, despite possessing completely radical (and slimmer) designs.
While they may not have the sheer numbers the ME universe has the UNSC could out tank the ME universe.
You have evidence of this... where exactly?
Not to mention the fact the largest ships they are making are for exploration purposes and not for combat purposes and not even in our universe anymore. If a battle happened the fact that the ME universe is capable of building a ship as big as the Infinity is irrelevant because they don't have one now.
Your comparing a peace time project by civilians to a multi-decade investment by a predominantly military government. The Citadel races will easily (if they haven't already) surpassed the UEG/UNSC wartime industry.
Also what makes you think the UNSC would stay close enough to the Relays to get caught up by antimatter bombs
Because that's precisely where their own weapons would actually become relevant? You don't want to get into a slugging match with the guys who have both the range and rate of fire on you.
which would be the obvious thing to do if you are the ME universe and know that the UNSC post war could effectively be waiting on you at each relay. I would send bombs through first if it was me just saying.
Antimatter bombs are typically reserved for surface targets, not ship-to-ship warfare because missiles that don't warp space and time are typically considered ineffective. That being said, the UNSC are screwed if facing targets coming from a relay anyhow since a large complement of UNSC forces and permanent observation posts would be necessary to identify ME strike groups arriving outside the effective range of most UNSC warships.
Since you already have the response to his post made with the points I would have used made, I'm not going to dog pile him. But I will add this, a Dreadnought is stated to weigh in the millions of tons. Marathon cruisers weigh 100,000 tons. So at a low end, Dreadnoughts weigh 20 times (2 million tons as the absolute lowest) more than an UNSC cruiser. What do this actually mean you ask? It means that if the Council were to start building Dreadnoughts as light as UNSC cruisers in terms of materials used, they can build 20 for every single UNSC cruiser built.

Off topic but man I pity Super MACs though, relatively static defenses against Mass Effect? Prepare to get sniped from the other end of the solar system.
i'm just trying to understand why they would fight at all anyway.
ChasCT2 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
ROBERTO jh wrote:
-snip-
-snip-

ChasCT2 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
Which none of Halo canon supports and is nothing but fan wank.

Furthermore, why are you assuming the treaty can not be lifted or that Mass Effect can't put their industry to work? Civilians can produce ships 3 times bigger than the Infinity with their own funding within a couple of years while the Infinity took over a decade with half of the navy's budget going into it. Just goes to show the sheer scale in difference doesn't it?
-snip-
The nexus is indeed bigger however that is intended to be a space station
It's a mobile deployment facility designed for isolated, long-term habitation and research. The applications for military use should be pretty obvious, especially when similar facilities already exist for the exact purpose of serving a role as an FOB in the Mass Effect unvierse. The reference to the Nexus was to show that such endeavors are trivial, and it's construction can even be spearheaded by individual civilians.
where as the arks are the same size as the destiny ascension which would be around 1.5 kilometers making it still 4.5 kilometers smaller than the Infinity. The UNSC has cruisers and heavy cruisers that are routinely the same size as the destiny ascension and that are shielded post covenant war.
That's cute. Size doesn't matter. Mass does. The UNSC's heaviest cruisers (ex. Marathon-class) clock in at no more then 100,000 tons, while each Ark has a dry weight of 17,000,000 tons. Of course, anyone who know's anything would be able to point out the illogical discrepancy in UNSC starship weight (they're lighter then air), so let's be generous and give them another 0 for a whooping 1,000,000 tons (Marathon-class 'Heavy' Cruiser). Your typical Ark and 800 meter dreadnought will still out mass the largest UNSC ships by a magnitude, despite possessing completely radical (and slimmer) designs.
While they may not have the sheer numbers the ME universe has the UNSC could out tank the ME universe.
You have evidence of this... where exactly?
Not to mention the fact the largest ships they are making are for exploration purposes and not for combat purposes and not even in our universe anymore. If a battle happened the fact that the ME universe is capable of building a ship as big as the Infinity is irrelevant because they don't have one now.
Your comparing a peace time project by civilians to a multi-decade investment by a predominantly military government. The Citadel races will easily (if they haven't already) surpassed the UEG/UNSC wartime industry.
Also what makes you think the UNSC would stay close enough to the Relays to get caught up by antimatter bombs
Because that's precisely where their own weapons would actually become relevant? You don't want to get into a slugging match with the guys who have both the range and rate of fire on you.
which would be the obvious thing to do if you are the ME universe and know that the UNSC post war could effectively be waiting on you at each relay. I would send bombs through first if it was me just saying.
Antimatter bombs are typically reserved for surface targets, not ship-to-ship warfare because missiles that don't warp space and time are typically considered ineffective. That being said, the UNSC are screwed if facing targets coming from a relay anyhow since a large complement of UNSC forces and permanent observation posts would be necessary to identify ME strike groups arriving outside the effective range of most UNSC warships.
Since you already have the response to his post made with the points I would have used made, I'm not going to dog pile him. But I will add this, a Dreadnought is stated to weigh in the millions of tons. Marathon cruisers weigh 100,000 tons. So at a low end, Dreadnoughts weigh 20 times (2 million tons as the absolute lowest) more than an UNSC cruiser. What do this actually mean you ask? It means that if the Council were to start building Dreadnoughts as light as UNSC cruisers in terms of materials used, they can build 20 for every single UNSC cruiser built.

Off topic but man I pity Super MACs though, relatively static defenses against Mass Effect? Prepare to get sniped from the other end of the solar system.
Fair points all around and this is just a general question would the shields that the post war UNSC not be able to extend their effectiveness than just not shielded cruisers. I just find with this debate that usually the science in the Halo universe... barring the forerunner stuff seems to be more grounded in realism as far as slip space and the weaponry is concerned. Seeing as how alot of scientists think that something like slipspace will be our way to make it to faster than light speeds. Too many times in mass effect do I feel like there is no real science that you can wrap your mind around not that its not understandable but its just not realistic. Also I concede I was never talking about the mass of the ships and I think that the fault of alot of the halo series and the design of their technology was written by people that for the most part didnt know what they were talking about. That and they were created in the early 2000s and have not since been updated. However I digress the the science in Mass Effect is just written to be much more powerful and Halo with limited ships and its uncanny ability to handicap itself whether its with treating space as if an orbital defense grid cant be breached and for whatever reason giving their ships limited range weapons which most likely has more to do with the plot of losing to the covenant than actually making convincing lore.

Well thought out arguments yall convinced me.
ChasCT2 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
ROBERTO jh wrote:
-snip-
-snip-

ChasCT2 wrote:
ChasCT2 wrote:
Which none of Halo canon supports and is nothing but fan wank.

Furthermore, why are you assuming the treaty can not be lifted or that Mass Effect can't put their industry to work? Civilians can produce ships 3 times bigger than the Infinity with their own funding within a couple of years while the Infinity took over a decade with half of the navy's budget going into it. Just goes to show the sheer scale in difference doesn't it?
-snip-
The nexus is indeed bigger however that is intended to be a space station
-snip-
Fair points all around and this is just a general question would the shields that the post war UNSC not be able to extend their effectiveness than just not shielded cruisers. I just find with this debate that usually the science in the Halo universe... barring the forerunner stuff seems to be more grounded in realism as far as slip space and the weaponry is concerned.
Actually, with the exception of the Minovsky Particle (Element Zero) Mass Effect follows a fixed set of universally established laws, most of which mirror our own. In Halo, single A.Is can consume more energy then there exists in our galaxy, ships are somehow lighter then air, MA5-series Assault Rifles use hammerspace to store dozens of full rifle cartridges in impossibly small magazines, Spartans can survive for months at a time on nothing but the dew of a single ginko leaf and the energy of the universe (never realistically fulfilling dietary requirements), marines can fire bursts of 14.5x114mm standing, man portable laser weapons will blow up tanks (but will not blind the user or nearby bystanders), and then everything else is just handwaved plot magic.
Seeing as how alot of scientists think that something like slipspace will be our way to make it to faster than light speeds.
I'd like to see links to these scientists or a published scientific journal discussing the matter. Superstring Theory is still in it's infancy, FTL travel through extra dimensions is less science and more us romanticizing space.
Too many times in mass effect do I feel like there is no real science that you can wrap your mind around not that its not understandable but its just not realistic.
Exceeding C in realspace? Yeah, I don't agree with that specifically, everything else is rather neat though - deceleration, heat generation, efficiency, and other limitations are solid (The Citadel Races were just beginning their first experiments into understanding six-dimensional space). At least until ME3 came along with their Crucible (Macguffin) space magic and Andromeda took it a couple steps too far (though I respect the reference to alcubierre drive and the ways they found solutions around some it's problems)
Also I concede I was never talking about the mass of the ships and I think that the fault of alot of the halo series and the design of their technology was written by people that for the most part didnt know what they were talking about.
That's ScienceFiction for you in a nutshell.
That and they were created in the early 2000s and have not since been updated. However I digress the the science in Mass Effect is just written to be much more powerful and Halo with limited ships and its uncanny ability to handicap itself whether its with treating space as if an orbital defense grid cant be breached and for whatever reason giving their ships limited range weapons which most likely has more to do with the plot of losing to the covenant than actually making convincing lore.

Well thought out arguments yall convinced me.
It was fun. Thanks for the debate!
I wonder if this thread would ever become locked.
So:

1. we have an entire galaxy vs. one galactic faction located in the Orion Arm.

2. If we wanted to have even the slightest chance of comparing those we would have to have the united power of Mass Effect during the Reaper invasion vs. the combined material/resource assets of Pre-War UNSC, the war production capability of early war (Circa ~2530), the technological superiority of post-war, all combined with the experience and genius of all military forces, a united humanity (So no Innies), and every military asset from civilian ONI researcher to the highest soldier, and dare I say it, including Spartan IV’s.

3. The UNSC possess the most destructive weapon known, the NOVA bomb. They can use the NOVA’s via sending small prowler teams and blowing up key places such as Thessia, Rannoch, The Citadel, etc. which would bomb logistics and moral to nothing. (You can include the Ark and Halo Array if you’d like, but NOVA in terms of they own it and can make it).

4. Slipstream space travel is superior to the Relays as it can allows tactical insertions right above... anywhere and attack. It also provides a near untouchable and unparalleled logistics as you can just leave and disappear.

5. UNSC ships and MACs are bigger, obviously, and while they may not be as fast it maneuverable as ME ships, they exceed in ranges of several hundred thousand kilometers (Debatable as Newton’s first law applies to both universes) and are able to take out several ME ships with a few shots (Differs per UNSC ship vs ME ship) while UNSC ships could survive several small MACs from ME ships.

6. AI’s in the UNSC, and by extension ONI, could see an attack pattern or formation preemptively before it properly occurs/finishes (Ex. Halo 2 Cairo Station opening cutscene with Cortana). They could also be used to hack into enemy databases and download data for tactical, logistical, and sabotage uses.

7. ONI, I think we all know the capabilities of ONI. For those who don’t, think of the Salarians and multiply that by roughly 20 in terms of sabotage, mis-information, assassinations, etc. They have influence anywhere at anytime.

So if the UNSC has to fight, even with all these it would most likely be a defensive war, but with knowledge from the Covvie War, they know exactly how to fight and conclude a pro-actively long defense.

(I think that is it that I could think up.)

If you reply to this, I have one request. Be polite, use proper grammar, and use an agreeable counter-argument.
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