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Why did the brutes/elites fight before the schism?

OP HamCon55

In Halo 3:ODST there is a moment where Buck find some dead Elites and Brutes and asks Dare what happened, which she says is classified, implying that the Great Schism was happening, but that does not make sense since the mission with Buck takes place right after the Super Carrier left with In Amberclad following. So Regret hasn't died yet, to cause the Elites to be replaced by the Brutes as the guards for the prophets, which in turn caused the Great Schism to happen after Truth ordered the Brutes to kill the Elites and Arbiter.

So what happened on earth? Did those brutes get impatient and kill the Elites, or did Truth order them to before the changing of the guards, it has stumped me for some time.
Brutes and Elites always hated each-other. They're the two most martially adapt races in the Covenant and each believes the other to be inferior. Couple that with the Elites having positions of honor (like the Honor Guards and Councilors) while the Brutes weren't even allowed to have working Plasma Cannons on their ships until the Schism, it's easy to understand why there would have been fighting between the two factions even before it broke into open war.
Do we know exactly the time between the slipspace jump and the death of the prophets ? Maybe masterchief has been faster than buck
HamCon55 wrote:
In Halo 3:ODST there is a moment where Buck find some dead Elites and Brutes and asks Dare what happened, which she says is classified, implying that the Great Schism was happening, but that does not make sense since the mission with Buck takes place right after the Super Carrier left with In Amberclad following. So Regret hasn't died yet, to cause the Elites to be replaced by the Brutes as the guards for the prophets, which in turn caused the Great Schism to happen after Truth ordered the Brutes to kill the Elites and Arbiter.

So what happened on earth? Did those brutes get impatient and kill the Elites, or did Truth order them to before the changing of the guards, it has stumped me for some time.
You're slightly mistaken about the Great Schism. The preparations for it started some time before the Battle of Earth. In fact, the 500-strong fleet encounted in OPERATION: First Strike was commanded exclusively by Jiralhanae.
The Schism was put into motion early when Regret kickstarted the Battle of Earth. Truth took the opportunity to eliminate the Sangheili left behind after Regret made the jump to Delta Halo, with nobody outside his command finding out.
Do we know exactly the time between the slipspace jump and the death of the prophets ? Maybe masterchief has been faster than buck
Time travels differently in different places, depending on the gravity
Do we know exactly the time between the slipspace jump and the death of the prophets ? Maybe masterchief has been faster than buck
Time travels differently in different places, depending on the gravity
Regret died november second, the battle of new mombasa happened october 20th. In Amber Clad was still in slipspace the entirety of ODST.
HamCon55 wrote:
In Halo 3:ODST there is a moment where Buck find some dead Elites and Brutes and asks Dare what happened, which she says is classified, implying that the Great Schism was happening, but that does not make sense since the mission with Buck takes place right after the Super Carrier left with In Amberclad following. So Regret hasn't died yet, to cause the Elites to be replaced by the Brutes as the guards for the prophets, which in turn caused the Great Schism to happen after Truth ordered the Brutes to kill the Elites and Arbiter.

So what happened on earth? Did those brutes get impatient and kill the Elites, or did Truth order them to before the changing of the guards, it has stumped me for some time.
You're slightly mistaken about the Great Schism. The preparations for it started some time before the Battle of Earth. In fact, the 500-strong fleet encounted in OPERATION: First Strike was commanded exclusively by Jiralhanae.
The Schism was put into motion early when Regret kickstarted the Battle of Earth. Truth took the opportunity to eliminate the Sangheili left behind after Regret made the jump to Delta Halo, with nobody outside his command finding out.
Its because Truth, Regret, and Mercy were already set to already getting ready to promote the Brutes and demote the Elites. The plan was already in motion and it took one opportunity to prove that the elites were incapable of protecting the Prophets; and thus give reason to demote the elites.
HamCon55 wrote:
In Halo 3:ODST there is a moment where Buck find some dead Elites and Brutes and asks Dare what happened, which she says is classified, implying that the Great Schism was happening, but that does not make sense since the mission with Buck takes place right after the Super Carrier left with In Amberclad following. So Regret hasn't died yet, to cause the Elites to be replaced by the Brutes as the guards for the prophets, which in turn caused the Great Schism to happen after Truth ordered the Brutes to kill the Elites and Arbiter.

So what happened on earth? Did those brutes get impatient and kill the Elites, or did Truth order them to before the changing of the guards, it has stumped me for some time.
Honestly...I think they wanted to make it synchronize with the schism, And I think they honestly forgot the dates when writing the game.
Probably Bungie not wanting to develop Elites as enemies for the Halo 3 engine and so moving the Schism forward a month for plot convenience. I think 343 cobbled together some canon to retroactively explain it but honestly none of the Great Schism seems to really make much sense if you look at it in retrospect.
Probably Bungie not wanting to develop Elites as enemies for the Halo 3 engine and so moving the Schism forward a month for plot convenience. I think 343 cobbled together some canon to retroactively explain it but honestly none of the Great Schism seems to really make much sense if you look at it in retrospect.
Honestly its what really bugged me about halo 2 and 3's plot. The oh so fearsome covenant ends up turning into a clown because it intentionally triggers its own civil war in what should have been its hour of victory, and in turn triggers its own demise.

And for what? We're never really given a reason in game or the books. The statements by the hierarchs seem to be their cover story, not the actual reason. If they'd just kept things going the way they were, they'd have likely won.
Say just simple hate for one another
Probably Bungie not wanting to develop Elites as enemies for the Halo 3 engine and so moving the Schism forward a month for plot convenience. I think 343 cobbled together some canon to retroactively explain it but honestly none of the Great Schism seems to really make much sense if you look at it in retrospect.
Honestly its what really bugged me about halo 2 and 3's plot. The oh so fearsome covenant ends up turning into a clown because it intentionally triggers its own civil war in what should have been its hour of victory, and in turn triggers its own demise.

And for what? We're never really given a reason in game or the books. The statements by the hierarchs seem to be their cover story, not the actual reason. If they'd just kept things going the way they were, they'd have likely won.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by this. The only real reason I can think of as to why the hierarchs would want the elites out of the picture BEFORE Regret was killed would honestly be the destruction of alpha halo. But even then that's sort of a sretch because they go from barely trusting the brutes with guns to suddenly thinking that they're the cream of the crop of the covenant. And they really do just frickin crumble! I was thinking about halo 3 the other day and realized how utterly inconclusive it really was. Truth dies and just like the entire covenant is gone, even though there are other Prophets who could have taken over the hierarchs position. They really did go from being the biggest threat in the universe to clowns from one bad decision. And a decision that really didn't even make sense.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by this. The only real reason I can think of as to why the hierarchs would want the elites out of the picture BEFORE Regret was killed would honestly be the destruction of alpha halo. But even then that's sort of a sretch because they go from barely trusting the brutes with guns to suddenly thinking that they're the cream of the crop of the covenant. And they really do just frickin crumble! I was thinking about halo 3 the other day and realized how utterly inconclusive it really was. Truth dies and just like the entire covenant is gone, even though there are other Prophets who could have taken over the hierarchs position. They really did go from being the biggest threat in the universe to clowns from one bad decision. And a decision that really didn't even make sense.
The story with the prophets is they were all conviently on high charity thus between high charity falling, and the victorious elites being on the warpath, that they quickly crumbled. At least Jul's covenant stayed around as a force, despite some people's dismay, because to be honest, you don't kill a multi-thousand year old empire/religion just by killing off its leader. Many leaders/popes have been killed and their little countries on earth survive them.

I'm guessing the elite rebellion was thought up to try and make it make a bit more sense from a writing point of view, but its just weird how Truth decided to enact this plan so close to just winning anyway. It wasn't even Alpha Halo's destruction that was the cause, because the Unyielding Hierophant was already staffed entirely with brutes and ready to invade earth, presumably because Truth didn't want elites involved.

And why? The only reference I can think of is some little nugget about elites questioning why humans weren't offered a spot in the covenant. This is of course, not in game (I don't know how bungie gets away scott free for not including essential things in game) and I believe only in the bonus material that came with the halo 2 special edition or something.

Even if Truth had been planning for a while to dispose of the elites for questioning him, its to be the most moronic thing to do so utterly close to victory. They had the Index, all they had to do is bring it to the control room and they win. I dont think this is a hindsight 20/20 thing. The brute uprising is triggered AFTER victory becomes super easy, barely an inconvenience. Instead of the schism, they could just park all the covenant around halo's control room, and activate halo with little problem.

In this case, the Gravemind just has John to move around to save the galaxy, which I'm presuming he'd send to the control room while the flood attacked high charity much like it did. I don't think a united covenant would have saved high charity either way, but the united covenant all parked around the control room would have likely slowed John down too much to stop them, even if we fanservice chief into being able to shoot his way through the entire defence forces.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by this. The only real reason I can think of as to why the hierarchs would want the elites out of the picture BEFORE Regret was killed would honestly be the destruction of alpha halo. But even then that's sort of a sretch because they go from barely trusting the brutes with guns to suddenly thinking that they're the cream of the crop of the covenant. And they really do just frickin crumble! I was thinking about halo 3 the other day and realized how utterly inconclusive it really was. Truth dies and just like the entire covenant is gone, even though there are other Prophets who could have taken over the hierarchs position. They really did go from being the biggest threat in the universe to clowns from one bad decision. And a decision that really didn't even make sense.
The story with the prophets is they were all conviently on high charity thus between high charity falling, and the victorious elites being on the warpath, that they quickly crumbled. At least Jul's covenant stayed around as a force, despite some people's dismay, because to be honest, you don't kill a multi-thousand year old empire/religion just by killing off its leader. Many leaders/popes have been killed and their little countries on earth survive them.
You do know that Jul's Covenant wasn't the Covenant, right? Jul and his Elites were betrayed by the Prophet of Truth like the rest of the Elite species. They hate the Prophets and were not loyalists. You know this, right? If you don't that's okay, Halo 4 did an awful job of introducing them.

The Covenant's former species and assets survived, but the Covenant itself was an organization. That organization was shattered in Halo 2 and completely destroyed in Halo 3. Jul's Covenant and all the other former species, weapons, gear and ships (which you're correct to say absolutely do still exist) are no longer the Covenant, they're different organizations.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by this. The only real reason I can think of as to why the hierarchs would want the elites out of the picture BEFORE Regret was killed would honestly be the destruction of alpha halo. But even then that's sort of a sretch because they go from barely trusting the brutes with guns to suddenly thinking that they're the cream of the crop of the covenant. And they really do just frickin crumble! I was thinking about halo 3 the other day and realized how utterly inconclusive it really was. Truth dies and just like the entire covenant is gone, even though there are other Prophets who could have taken over the hierarchs position. They really did go from being the biggest threat in the universe to clowns from one bad decision. And a decision that really didn't even make sense.
The story with the prophets is they were all conviently on high charity thus between high charity falling, and the victorious elites being on the warpath, that they quickly crumbled. At least Jul's covenant stayed around as a force, despite some people's dismay, because to be honest, you don't kill a multi-thousand year old empire/religion just by killing off its leader. Many leaders/popes have been killed and their little countries on earth survive them.
You do know that Jul's Covenant wasn't the Covenant, right? Jul and his Elites were betrayed by the Prophet of Truth like the rest of the Elite species. They hate the Prophets and were not loyalists. You know this, right? If you don't that's okay, Halo 4 did an awful job of introducing them.

The Covenant's former species and assets survived, but the Covenant itself was an organization. That organization was shattered in Halo 2 and completely destroyed in Halo 3. Jul's Covenant and all the other former species, weapons, gear and ships (which you're correct to say absolutely do still exist) are no longer the Covenant, they're different organizations.
But didn't they still call their group the covenant? I know it was not the original, but they were a different version who still called themselves, and had the humans and swords of sanghileos call them the covenant
HamCon55 wrote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by this. The only real reason I can think of as to why the hierarchs would want the elites out of the picture BEFORE Regret was killed would honestly be the destruction of alpha halo. But even then that's sort of a sretch because they go from barely trusting the brutes with guns to suddenly thinking that they're the cream of the crop of the covenant. And they really do just frickin crumble! I was thinking about halo 3 the other day and realized how utterly inconclusive it really was. Truth dies and just like the entire covenant is gone, even though there are other Prophets who could have taken over the hierarchs position. They really did go from being the biggest threat in the universe to clowns from one bad decision. And a decision that really didn't even make sense.
The story with the prophets is they were all conviently on high charity thus between high charity falling, and the victorious elites being on the warpath, that they quickly crumbled. At least Jul's covenant stayed around as a force, despite some people's dismay, because to be honest, you don't kill a multi-thousand year old empire/religion just by killing off its leader. Many leaders/popes have been killed and their little countries on earth survive them.
You do know that Jul's Covenant wasn't the Covenant, right? Jul and his Elites were betrayed by the Prophet of Truth like the rest of the Elite species. They hate the Prophets and were not loyalists. You know this, right? If you don't that's okay, Halo 4 did an awful job of introducing them.

The Covenant's former species and assets survived, but the Covenant itself was an organization. That organization was shattered in Halo 2 and completely destroyed in Halo 3. Jul's Covenant and all the other former species, weapons, gear and ships (which you're correct to say absolutely do still exist) are no longer the Covenant, they're different organizations.
But didn't they still call their group the covenant? I know it was not the original, but they were a different version who still called themselves, and had the humans and swords of sanghileos call them the covenant
Halo 4 did a horrible job of introducing them. Halo Escalation explains that they're one of hundreds of independent organizations that self-proclaim to be a "Covenant" but it's unofficial. The Covenant itself died in Halo 3.
Halo 4 did a horrible job of introducing them. Halo Escalation explains that they're one of hundreds of independent organizations that self-proclaim to be a "Covenant" but it's unofficial. The Covenant itself died in Halo 3.
The covenant may have died as a solidified empire in 3, but its continued by those hundreds of splinter factions. Which is precisely what one would expect when taking out the head.

I don't really see what the point of this tangent is, beyond taking shots at halo 4.
Halo 4 did a horrible job of introducing them. Halo Escalation explains that they're one of hundreds of independent organizations that self-proclaim to be a "Covenant" but it's unofficial. The Covenant itself died in Halo 3.
The covenant may have died as a solidified empire in 3, but its continued by those hundreds of splinter factions. Which is precisely what one would expect when taking out the head.

I don't really see what the point of this tangent is, beyond taking shots at halo 4.
When the Covenant died as a soldified empire, it died. There's no homeworld (High Charity) anymore, there's no government anymore, there's no official military anymore. It's like the apocalyptic setting of The Walking Dead, the United States of America is gone, there's just different armed groups of survivors that have scavenged military assets of fallen America. These splinter factions are not the Covenant, they're their own separate organizations, some of which unofficially self-proclaim to be "the Covenant".

To quote Zef 'Trahl: What does it mean to be "Covenant" today? A hundred warlords claim they rule the Covenant, but each of them leads only a small faction.

Halo 4 had a great story, I'm not taking shots at it as a whole, just one specific part of it. Halo 4 was especially great with John and Cortana. I'm taking shots specifically at the poor introduction of Jul's Covenant which caused mass confusion for the fans. Some thought they were loyalists to the Prophet of Truth.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who was confused by this. The only real reason I can think of as to why the hierarchs would want the elites out of the picture BEFORE Regret was killed would honestly be the destruction of alpha halo. But even then that's sort of a sretch because they go from barely trusting the brutes with guns to suddenly thinking that they're the cream of the crop of the covenant. And they really do just frickin crumble! I was thinking about halo 3 the other day and realized how utterly inconclusive it really was. Truth dies and just like the entire covenant is gone, even though there are other Prophets who could have taken over the hierarchs position. They really did go from being the biggest threat in the universe to clowns from one bad decision. And a decision that really didn't even make sense.
The story with the prophets is they were all conviently on high charity thus between high charity falling, and the victorious elites being on the warpath, that they quickly crumbled. At least Jul's covenant stayed around as a force, despite some people's dismay, because to be honest, you don't kill a multi-thousand year old empire/religion just by killing off its leader. Many leaders/popes have been killed and their little countries on earth survive them.

I'm guessing the elite rebellion was thought up to try and make it make a bit more sense from a writing point of view, but its just weird how Truth decided to enact this plan so close to just winning anyway. It wasn't even Alpha Halo's destruction that was the cause, because the Unyielding Hierophant was already staffed entirely with brutes and ready to invade earth, presumably because Truth didn't want elites involved.

And why? The only reference I can think of is some little nugget about elites questioning why humans weren't offered a spot in the covenant. This is of course, not in game (I don't know how bungie gets away scott free for not including essential things in game) and I believe only in the bonus material that came with the halo 2 special edition or something.

Even if Truth had been planning for a while to dispose of the elites for questioning him, its to be the most moronic thing to do so utterly close to victory. They had the Index, all they had to do is bring it to the control room and they win. I dont think this is a hindsight 20/20 thing. The brute uprising is triggered AFTER victory becomes super easy, barely an inconvenience. Instead of the schism, they could just park all the covenant around halo's control room, and activate halo with little problem.

In this case, the Gravemind just has John to move around to save the galaxy, which I'm presuming he'd send to the control room while the flood attacked high charity much like it did. I don't think a united covenant would have saved high charity either way, but the united covenant all parked around the control room would have likely slowed John down too much to stop them, even if we fanservice chief into being able to shoot his way through the entire defence forces.
The closest I can come to adequately explaining it is that Truth wanted to seize direct control of the Covenant and that prior his power was kept in check by the high councilors. Hence he gets Regret and Mercy kills and wipes out the Sangheili councilors and replaces them with the Brutes who aren't as interested in political power. I presume he offed most of the Prophet councilors too.

Of course, this just raises the question of what exactly his endgame was, and why he never did this in the previous 25 years. I guess maybe he wanted to wipe out all life in the Galaxy and then rebuild it with him as its leader, but this is just fanfiction at this point; nothing ever seems to indicate what he was trying to do. He seems genuinely convinced he'll become a God despite the fact he knows from two separate sources that it won't happen.

His character is just so incredibly inconsistent that it's almost impossible to determine what exactly he was trying to do. He's ruthless and plotting in Halo 2, a megalomaniac wannabe God in Halo 3, and a pragmatic politician who seems to genuinely want what's best for the Covenant in Contact Harvest. He's barely even the same person. The only thing that really works his the trite old "he's CRAZY!" excuse, which is always the most unsatisfying villain motivation, especially when it feels tacked on as an excuse rather than an intrinsic part of their character. Even insane characters like Joffrey or John Hurt's Caligula still have consistent motivations and goals.
His character is just so incredibly inconsistent that it's almost impossible to determine what exactly he was trying to do. He's ruthless and plotting in Halo 2, a megalomaniac wannabe God in Halo 3, and a pragmatic politician who seems to genuinely want what's best for the Covenant in Contact Harvest. He's barely even the same person. The only thing that really works his the trite old "he's CRAZY!" excuse, which is always the most unsatisfying villain motivation, especially when it feels tacked on as an excuse rather than an intrinsic part of their character. Even insane characters like Joffrey or John Hurt's Caligula still have consistent motivations and goals.
Thats what surprises me about fan perception of 343 vs bungie's story telling. Bungie gets away with an utterly convoluted character who's motivations can only be speculated upon but seem contradictory, while 343 provides a villain with an explained motive in his first game (wants to compose humans to fight flood) but somehow 343 is the bad story teller.

Now sadly, the didact's motivations in halo 4 *did* end up being because "he's CRAZY!" but that was explained in a book, not the game (those things people keep saying they're not required to read despite the EU being there to help prop up the original trilogy just as much).

I can only imagine it has part to do with bungie not explaining things properly *anywhere* leading people to enjoy speculation instead of having some sort of answer somewhere.