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Why do people hate Master Chief Having a Mech Suit

OP Snockooz

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TheKiltdHeathen
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TheKiltdHeathen

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Snockooz wrote:
As it's been several months, I had to back-read to see just where this mess came from. Seems to mostly stem from dialogue, shall we say, regarding Multiplayer elements being half-canon, specifically the canonical impracticality of Theseus - something that still stands, by the way, and a misunderstanding on your behalf regarding Jerome's rank. I acknowledge that Jerome was given the rank of Acting Commander (and bickering on this is pointless, clearly), however his depiction as seen in the multiplayer is less-than so. As I said, a "fully outfitted" Commander.

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So Do you have any idea what that Backpack even does? Or are you just saying it not canon because reasons? I have already explained why that Mantis having a neural-link is very much possible. What proof do you have that a the technology to remote control a vehicle doesn't exist in the Halo Universe? They have Drones in the Halo Universe that aren't all that much different form Military Spy drones today. Do you have any proof to indicate that with the schematics of the Hydra launch(which Isabel would have) that the Spirit Of Fire couldn't make one?
Gods but this is tiresome.

There is no explination for his backpack. However as it does not show up in the campaign, it is essentially (that's the important part) non-canonical. If it shows up in Halo Wars 3 great! Then it's canon. But as it stands right now, canon is what we see from The Signal to Manifestation.

You have certainly tried to argue for how the Mantieses can have neural links, but as can be clearly shown from the Phoenix Logs, this is absolutely impossible. And we see Mantises in Spearbreaker, so their production and means of production is valid canon; Spirit of Fire is building them with scrap and reused parts, and they do not have neural links. Period.

I have also specifically argued against remote controlling a unit or vehicle from a neural link. Not remote control entirely.

Now, as you're so keen to demand proof, prove that Isabel would have schematics to the Hydra. Especially since it was authorized for widespread UNSC use after she was cut off from UNSC communications and networks after the Ark portal was shut down. And the Spirit of Fire would have nothing in the sort of communications from them. Do go on and prove that.

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The impossible Hip structure of the suit is something that I have at no point ever tried to contest.
So then you agree that if the Prototype suit is to work in any biological operational capacity, it must be larger than a standard human to accomodate their entire body being housed within the torso structure of the mech. It must then be significantly larger than a Spartan, and at least as large as a Mantis. Which, given the already advanced production of the Mantis system, would render your Mecha obsolete and redundant. Marvelous.

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The Point I do contest is your assumption that the Armor in Halo Wars 2 is the armor In Halo Legend Prototype when we have 2 other instances of the Halo Legends design being used.
None of which indicate for size. And given that I've shown that if you put a helmet on the Green Machine you get the exact same look as seen in Halo Legends, the Midnight Into the Heart of Midlothian animated short, and the comics, your point is.... what? (And yes, you have been pushing for a two-legged mech. Be it a digitigrade structure or plantigrade, you've been pushing for a mech suit that would invariably be two-legged.)

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In that Quote he is specially talking about the Female Elite.
It doesn't matter who he's specifically talking about, the "heroes" of the story were made to look more human-like to make them sympathetic. Notice how all the "bad guy" Sangheili look just like every other Sangheili we've seen? Only the "good" ones fly in the face of established visual canon. Indicative, as I've been saying repeatedly for a year now, that the visuals of the anime is completely unreliable as canonically sound or consistent.

P.S. We have seen a female Sangheili since The Duel. I direct you to the cover of Shadow of Intent, and the character of Tul 'Juran
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FinishingFUEGO
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FinishingFUEGO

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I think Spartans in mechs full time would cheapen them. We have seen that all mech suits, even the smaller one that 'Johnson' wears can be used effectively by normal people, what would then be the point of a Spartan program?

Putting a Spartan in something that anyone can use would feel pointless to me and I would feel like the Spartan was less involved - I know Mjolnir boosts their abilities; but I feel like the level of skill and resourcefulness is an equal factor (see SIII's in SPI). Unless we turn Gundam where EVERYONE has a mech and it's specifically a Spartan's enhancements that allow to pilot specific ones, I see no point.

Mjolnir allows it to feel like the Spartan still matters, mechs don't. I like how mechs are in Halo, bonuses on the battlefield but due to their speed and size they aren't overly special...and that's where Spartans come in.
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Snockooz
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Snockooz

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There is no explination for his backpack. However as it does not show up in the campaign, it is essentially (that's the important part) non-canonical. If it shows up in Halo Wars 3 great! Then it's canon. But as it stands right now, canon is what we see from The Signal to Manifestation.
Then that is a fundamental differences in what we both believe to be canon In Halo Wars 2. I believe that only the things that have no Possible way of being there aren't canon. Characters that are dead or simply can't be On the Ark. Weapons and Technology that require forerunner Tech. Brutes would not take commands from a Grunt. It is not shown or stated anywhere where canon ends and non canon begins. This is a Problem that only really exists in Halo Wars 2 and 343 really should clear up this confusion as it tends to lead to arguments.
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You have certainly tried to argue for how the Mantieses can have neural links, but as can be clearly shown from the Phoenix Logs, this is absolutely impossible. And we see Mantises in Spearbreaker, so their production and means of production is valid canon; Spirit of Fire is building them with scrap and reused parts, and they do not have neural links. Period.
There are Mantis' stationed On the Ark that Have a neural link, There for it is POSSIBLE.

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Now, as you're so keen to demand proof, prove that Isabel would have schematics to the Hydra. Especially since it was authorized for widespread UNSC use after she was cut off from UNSC communications and networks after the Ark portal was shut down. And the Spirit of Fire would have nothing in the sort of communications from them. Do go on and prove that.
The Portal To earth was close October 2558, during the events of Halo 5. We find a Hydra Launch in the Mission Blue team on the Argent Moon. The Argent Moon has not moved(There for hasn't received any tech or weapons) since at least March 2557 as that is when the biological agent killed everyone onboard. This means that the Hydra has been in service for at least a year and a half before the Portal from Earth to the Ark was closed. Plenty of time for a Smart AI to learn of it.

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So then you agree that if the Prototype suit is to work in any biological operational capacity, it must be larger than a standard human to accomodate their entire body being housed within the torso structure of the mech. It must then be significantly larger than a Spartan, and at least as large as a Mantis. Which, given the already advanced production of the Mantis system, would render your Mecha obsolete and redundant. Marvelous.
It is Larger than a Human, 9 -10 feet. We see it stand right next to a Elite. It is nowhere near the height of a mantis.

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None of which indicate for size. And given that I've shown that if you put a helmet on the Green Machine you get the exact same look as seen in Halo Legends, the Midnight Into the Heart of Midlothian animated short, and the comics, your point is.... what?
(deliberate cough)
THEY don't look anywhere near that same unless all Bulky armor looks the same to you.
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(And yes, you have been pushing for a two-legged mech. Be it a digitigrade structure or plantigrade, you've been pushing for a mech suit that would invariably be two-legged.)
You where saying That that Mega Mantis that is on map Adrift is what I want. What I was saying is I don't want a Massive two-legged Mech as I find them extremely impractical. Really this suit is more of a powered exoskeleton than a Mech. I only called it a Mech to begin with to distinguish it from MJONLIR and I didn't call it the Prototype suit or hrunting/yggdrasil mark I as not everyone knows what that is.
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It doesn't matter who he's specifically talking about, the "heroes" of the story were made to look more human-like to make them sympathetic. Notice how all the "bad guy" Sangheili look just like every other Sangheili we've seen? Only the "good" ones fly in the face of established visual canon. Indicative, as I've been saying repeatedly for a year now, that the visuals of the anime is completely unreliable as canonically sound or consistent.
IT Actually does. Also this doesn't look very human to me and that is the "Hero" of the Story. Literally the only thing that comes close to the "More human-like" aspects is them not using all four mandibles to talk which is something that doesn't happen then entire time, this shows that they can do both. I believe in one of the Kilo five Books it also showed Elites talking this way but I'll have to check again to make sure.

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P.S. We have seen a female Sangheili since The Duel. I direct you to the cover of Shadow of Intent, and the character of Tul 'Juran
Looking pass the fact that Elites have different races that look wildly different. What you are showing me is a visual retcon. That doesn't retcon everything else that happens in the episode. The only time that would happen is if they retell the story again and change things. And no the Fact that the hrunting/yggdrasil mark I (J) Looks different than the One in Legends doesn't mean it’s a Visual Retcon. Tech can and has visually changed with variants in canon many times.
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TheKiltdHeathen
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TheKiltdHeathen

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Snockooz wrote:
Then that is a fundamental differences in what we both believe to be canon In Halo Wars 2. I believe that only the things that have no Possible way of being there aren't canon. Characters that are dead or simply can't be On the Ark. Weapons and Technology that require forerunner Tech. Brutes would not take commands from a Grunt.
So essentially everything about Multiplayer, except for the parts that you like to consider canonical despite any and all ability to provide reason for them beyond "you can't prove it didn't happen". It is a widely accepted concept - I won't say fact, though I lean toward it - that Campaigns are canonical, Multiplayer is not. The closest Multiplayer has every gotten to canon is the cross-inclusion of calling it "War Games" in Halo 4 and 5, and having in-canon mentions of Spartans training in said simulations and matches. Yet that still doesn't make tea-bagging an official, UNSC certified practice.

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There are Mantis' stationed On the Ark that Have a neural link, There for it is POSSIBLE.
This has been gone over time and time again. The Phoenix Logs - relevant to a Campaign level, no less - are quite clear on the matter. You are wrong, it is not possible, end of story. I won't be addressing this point again.

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The Portal To earth was close October 2558, during the events of Halo 5. We find a Hydra Launch in the Mission Blue team on the Argent Moon. The Argent Moon has not moved(There for hasn't received any tech or weapons) since at least March 2557 as that is when the biological agent killed everyone onboard. This means that the Hydra has been in service for at least a year and a half before the Portal from Earth to the Ark was closed. Plenty of time for a Smart AI to learn of it.
Negative. I've already mentioned that it is noted that the Hydra has not seen use outside of the Spartan branch as of October 2558. They Hydra's presence on an ONI research ship does not prove or even touch upon how Isabel would have access to it's schematics. Or even means to produce them, given older manufacturing facilities.

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Looking pass the fact that Elites have different races that look wildly different.
The Sangheili do not have different races. They have different phenotypes that we've seen, but they are one race. And you have just been given clear depiction of a female Sangheili - you cannot so easily brush it aside just because it shows you incorrectly.

No, Tul 'Juran being a direct depiction of a female Sangheili doesn't change what happened in the anime. Nor am I saying it does; in fact, that's been my point the entire time. What it does change is the canonical depiction of a female Sangheili; a depiction straight from 343 Industries, as opposed to a depiction taking artistic and stylistic depictions liscenced by 343i. As follows with the entirety of the anime; again, as I stated before, what happened is canonical. How it was shown is not.
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CannonHorse
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CannonHorse

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It's some sort of weird fat-shaming thing I think.
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VDrifter032
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VDrifter032

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A mech suit for a Spartan would pretty much be both overkill and a restriction. Spartans are highly mobile soldiers and an added mech suit could restrict their movement. But due to the time period of Halo, this may not be the case with the kind of technology present. I for one like the idea, but many see it as unnecessary given the Spartans default abilities in their Mjolnir armor. In basic terms, people can't comprehend the idea of making a super-soldier even more super.
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TheKiltdHeathen
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TheKiltdHeathen

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Oh, I can comprehend it. I just have to ask "why?" Because at that point we've basically got Halo Evangelion.
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Snockooz
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Snockooz

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TheKiltdHeathen wrote:
So essentially everything about Multiplayer, except for the parts that you like to consider canonical despite any and all ability to provide reason for them beyond "you can't prove it didn't happen". It is a widely accepted concept - I won't say fact, though I lean toward it - that Campaigns are canonical, Multiplayer is not. The closest Multiplayer has every gotten to canon is the cross-inclusion of calling it "War Games" in Halo 4 and 5, and having in-canon mentions of Spartans training in said simulations and matches. Yet that still doesn't make tea-bagging an official, UNSC certified practice.
Not true, I actually Like YapYap a lot But its just not possible that a Grunt could Have the army we see in Halo Wars 2. The Character existing, Finding Truth's Helmet, and maybe having a few Grunt followers? That’s possible. I really Like The Cryo Tech Serina Has but I also Know that unless they had some serious breakthroughs in Forerunner Reverse engineering, There is just Know way the UNSC could have that kind of tech. Then you have Characters that I Like that are just Dead. I think the Only real thing you and I disagree on when it come to what is and isn't canon in Halo wars 2 is regarding the Jersome leader. If 343 had made it more clear what is and isn't canon in Halo wars 2 (and in general really)then this wouldn't be a problem.

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This has been gone over time and time again. The Phoenix Logs - relevant to a Campaign level, no less - are quite clear on the matter. You are wrong, it is not possible, end of story. I won't be addressing this point again.
The Phoenix Logs State, "Mantis Units were station at the Henry Lamb Research Outpost for site security, but many were destroyed in the initial Banished attack". Many is not all and all the need is one. SO, Yes it is possible.

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Negative. I've already mentioned that it is noted that the Hydra has not seen use outside of the Spartan branch as of October 2558. They Hydra's presence on an ONI research ship does not prove or even touch upon how Isabel would have access to it's schematics. Or even means to produce them, given older manufacturing facilities.
Negative that does not say, "the Hydra has not seen use outside of the Spartan branch" what it actually says is, "Though it has yet to see widespread use outside of the elite Spartan Branch". Not seeing use and not seeing Widespread use are two different things. It not having Widespread use basically conforms it has had some use outside of the Spartan Branch and it being on research ship(that doesn’t have any Spartans) during 2557 proves it.

How? The Information regarding the Hydra has existed well before portal to the ark was closed. UNSC Smart AIs have routinely shown being able to get almost any Info they want from the UNSC. In the Halo Fall of Reach Comic, Cortana is shown very easily finding All the Info she wanted about Colonel James Ackerman and the projects he has. Then She proceeded to use his Bank account and assign him to the Front lines all in a matter of seconds. These are all things she shouldn't have had access to. If Cortana Can do this then I see no reason why Isabel couldn't have gotten the Schematics of a single weapon before the Portal Closed. It is also Possible that Hydras where station at the ark. If they can be station on the Argent Moon before March 2557(that’s when the biological agent that killed everyone was released)Then there is no reason a few couldn't be stationed on the Ark. Henry Lamb research out post was establish between the end of 2557 and the beginning of 2558 more than Half a year after argent moon went dark.

"Or even means to produce them, given older manufacturing facilities." Tell me, do you know How a Hydra Launcher is made? Do you know what is required in a Production Facility to make it? Do you know precisely what the UNSC Spirit Of Fire has for it's Production Facilities? The Answer to all of these is no. We have no idea what the SOF is capable of producing and it using, "older manufacturing facilities" mean absolute nothing without context.

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No, Tul 'Juran being a direct depiction of a female Sangheili doesn't change what happened in the anime. Nor am I saying it does; in fact, that's been my point the entire time. What it does change is the canonical depiction of a female Sangheili; a depiction straight from 343 Industries, as opposed to a depiction taking artistic and stylistic depictions liscenced by 343i. As follows with the entirety of the anime; again, as I stated before, what happened is canonical. How it was shown is not.
Sigh.. Again you try to use semantics to make yourself seem right. "A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society. First used to refer to speakers of a common language and then to denote national affiliations, by the 17th century the term race began to refer to physical (phenotypical) traits. "The word phenotype is usually only used when referring to animals. Sangheili are a sophisticated Species just like humans. Race is a perfectly valid word to use when referring Sangheili with different phenotypical traits.

Like I said it is a visual Retcon. It's not my fault that 343's Canon policy is that everything is canon.
GrimBrother One wrote:
CIA391 wrote:
Everything is equal.

Well the only thing to note is marketing.

Marketing can be retconned or removed at any time for obvious reasons.

Though unless the marketing conflicts with other media. Its treated equally.

An example of a grey area is I Love Bees. Due to the errors in it. But its still canon.
Yes I would say that theoretically marketing campaigns are definitely the... "squishiest" of details that could be interpreted as canonical.
So what do we do when everything is canon. The newest things are what take priority first. So if new canon comes out depicting the Events shown in Halo Legend then we would take those depictions over the ones in Halo Legends. Them changing they way Female elites looks changes only that. In halo CE anniversary they changed what the Mark 5 looks like. Does that Retroactively change what happens in Halo the Fall of Reach book or comics? No.

TheKiltdHeathen wrote:
Oh, I can comprehend it. I just have to ask "why?" Because at that point we've basically got Halo Evangelion.
Oh goody more Japanime.
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Diovangelo
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Diovangelo

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Feel like Halo Wars 2 is already dangerously close to Star Craft without encouraging it.
Sooner or later the Flood will team up with the Zerg.
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Vicex3683
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Vicex3683

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The day this happens is the day I give up Halo. It's ridiculous as hell- and not Halo at all. Please keep the anime stuff for anime franchises.
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BeastSprayz
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BeastSprayz

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There really is no need for the suit. It’s redundant with the upgrade of Mjolnir GEN3 coming. Don’t know how many times people need to say that it’s redundant, before you understand that.
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Bighair1970
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Bighair1970

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I have two main complaints, one is tone based, in that I don't think it fits the down to earth, militaristic feel of Halo. I like that I don't feel completely invincible, it makes the fight actually feel like it has stakes.
Second, from a gameplay perspective, It would feel too much like other some other shooters, which I think is an issue as Halo already has something of an identity crisis/
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BeastSprayz
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BeastSprayz

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Bighair1970 wrote:
I have two main complaints, one is tone based, in that I don't think it fits the down to earth, militaristic feel of Halo. I like that I don't feel completely invincible, it makes the fight actually feel like it has stakes.
Second, from a gameplay perspective, It would feel too much like other some other shooters, which I think is an issue as Halo already has something of an identity crisis/
I wouldn’t go as far as to say Halo is having an identity crisis, more that it’s lost the connection that made it what it was. It’s still recognisable as Halo, but still different that it doesn’t feel the same, you know what I mean? I think this has been realised by 343 however, and they are making a hybrid of art styles and we’ll have to wait to see about gameplay.
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Bighair1970
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Bighair1970

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BeastSprayz wrote:
Bighair1970 wrote:
I have two main complaints, one is tone based, in that I don't think it fits the down to earth, militaristic feel of Halo. I like that I don't feel completely invincible, it makes the fight actually feel like it has stakes.
Second, from a gameplay perspective, It would feel too much like other some other shooters, which I think is an issue as Halo already has something of an identity crisis/
I wouldn’t go as far as to say Halo is having an identity crisis, more that it’s lost the connection that made it what it was. It’s still recognisable as Halo, but still different that it doesn’t feel the same, you know what I mean? I think this has been realised by 343 however, and they are making a hybrid of art styles and we’ll have to wait to see about gameplay.
It's still recognisable, definitely, but to me it has lost that special touch that set it apart. If it weren't for the graphics I doubt many old time players would recognise it.

EDIT: but we're getting off topic and I don't want to start an argument with anyone so I'm just going to say, I do still play and somewhat enjoy the newer games and avoid making any further comments on the state of Halo unless related to the OP's comment.
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OP
Snockooz
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Snockooz

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Bighair1970 wrote:
I have two main complaints, one is tone based, in that I don't think it fits the down to earth, militaristic feel of Halo. I like that I don't feel completely invincible, it makes the fight actually feel like it has stakes.
Second, from a gameplay perspective, It would feel too much like other some other shooters, which I think is an issue as Halo already has something of an identity crisis/
In the OP I initially say it could be a replacement for MJOLNIR or it could act as a vehicle. As this thread grew I came to realize that having it as a vehicle was the best idea. So gameplay wise you wouldn't be invincible. You would be on par with a banshee or wasp but it would function more like a ghost in movement. It could also jump and melee. Mind you this isnt a gundam or a titanfall titan. It would be at most 10feet tall.
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IkusabeTakamaru
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IkusabeTakamaru

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Vicex3683 wrote:
The day this happens is the day I give up Halo. It's ridiculous as hell- and not Halo at all. Please keep the anime stuff for anime franchises.
By your own logic you should have quit almost a decade ago when Legends came out.

If you're gonna hate on something, the least you could do is not be a hypocrite.
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Vicex3683
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Vicex3683

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IkusabeTakamaru wrote:
Vicex3683 wrote:
The day this happens is the day I give up Halo. It's ridiculous as hell- and not Halo at all. Please keep the anime stuff for anime franchises.
By your own logic you should have quit almost a decade ago when Legends came out.
If you're gonna hate on something, the least you could do is not be a hypocrite.
The difference is Legends was a once-off thing experimenting with new media sources, not changing the foundation of what is Halo. Did I enjoy legends? No, I did not.
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OP
Snockooz
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Snockooz

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Vicex3683 wrote:
IkusabeTakamaru wrote:
Vicex3683 wrote:
The day this happens is the day I give up Halo. It's ridiculous as hell- and not Halo at all. Please keep the anime stuff for anime franchises.
By your own logic you should have quit almost a decade ago when Legends came out.
If you're gonna hate on something, the least you could do is not be a hypocrite.
The difference is Legends was a once-off thing experimenting with new media sources, not changing the foundation of what is Halo. Did I enjoy legends? No, I did not.
Halo wars 2 also has the suit in it.
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Bighair1970
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Bighair1970

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IkusabeTakamaru wrote:
Vicex3683 wrote:
The day this happens is the day I give up Halo. It's ridiculous as hell- and not Halo at all. Please keep the anime stuff for anime franchises.
By your own logic you should have quit almost a decade ago when Legends came out.
If you're gonna hate on something, the least you could do is not be a hypocrite.
TBF, that is seperate to the main games so I can still see why Vicex EMS said that.
Though he could have been a little less aggressive with it
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Killer Orca
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Killer Orca

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I don't think its the suit itself, people just want the old MK VI back exactly how it was before pretty much. Any differentiation gets them upset.
Me, personally? Its not bulky enough. I want Chief to look like an Adeptus Astartes. Minus the huge door-smashing pauldrons mind you.
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To know the Lore is to know Halo
"Dont be spoiled, dont start a fight. Always be careful, here at night. Because the Spartans might come, in suits that weigh half a ton. And they'll steal from you all you gots, just like they did from Colonel Watts."
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