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Why do people hate Spartan IV's?

OP Prince Emhyr

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Jed L 758 wrote:
To be a spartan meant to single-handedly win a battle, to blow up halo rings, stop the flood while fostering relations with a race that you were once at war with for years.
So far as the Spartan II's and III's go, this all really only applies to John-117. And the bold only applies (for them) in the last few years of the Covenant War. The Spartan IV's have fought the Flood in minor outbreaks and fostered Sangheili relations far more than any other Spartan II.
Jed L 758 wrote:
I guess it's mainly because the process of becoming a spartan seems trivialized with them.
This is by and large due to the community's false perception of them, because it is not, at all, trivial to become a Spartan-IV. Safer? Yes, but there is still a screening process, as well as weeks-to-months of intense surgery and recovery time needed. There is also a grueling training regiment that is undergone to push the Spartans further than they've ever been. It's covered in multiple sources that it isn't as simple as just getting pricked with a few needles and BAM! done. Spartan made. It's a whole ordeal.
Jed L 758 wrote:
The augmentation process is a lot safer than it used to be,
As stated above; yes, safer, but it still contains its own risks, such as the Spartan-IVs needing to be "tuned-up" as it's referred, to ensure they don't have deterioration with their augments. They're only bested by the Gamma S-IIIs for needed monitoring of their health.
I also don't know why safer augmentations are a ding against the S-IVs: The S-III's augments were also safe. The maiming, disfigurement, and violent death incurred by augmentations was really only an S-II thing.

Jed L 758 wrote:
and the back stories are a lot less tragic than spartan II's.
Are they less? I find that "kidnapped at 6 and forced to become a child soldier" can also be matched with "watched home planet burned, constantly on the run from the Covenant, had family killed, fought desperately during the war to survive" for tragedy.
I really think the community refuses to believe that the S-IVs can have a tragic backstory rather than it be innately true.

Jed L 758 wrote:
To be a spartan meant to single-handedly win a battle, to blow up halo rings, stop the flood while fostering relations with a race that you were once at war with for years.
I mean, only Chief did that. I'm not sure why that's the certification that's needed to hold the title Spartan. They can do that, doesn't mean they have to do it.

Jed L 758 wrote:
Now S 5's are in fire teams that can barly hold of Prometheans.
Some context should be kept in mind, as the Prometheans weren't an enemy encountered before. Even Chief struggled when initially encountering them.
It also appears that by the time of Halo 5 the Spartans--and UNSC--are more versed in fighting them: Osiris didn't seem to have much trouble throughout their escapade.
The spartan IV's just seem at a disadvantage in almost every way
Jed L 758 wrote:
To be a spartan meant to single-handedly win a battle, to blow up halo rings, stop the flood while fostering relations with a race that you were once at war with for years.
So far as the Spartan II's and III's go, this all really only applies to John-117. And the bold only applies (for them) in the last few years of the Covenant War. The Spartan IV's have fought the Flood in minor outbreaks and fostered Sangheili relations far more than any other Spartan II.
Sorry, I wasn't talking in general, should have been more specific. We have known John from the beginning. I feel like his story embodies what it means to be a spartan. So, when most fans think of a spartan, I imagine they think of Master Chief, one of the most if not the most well-known spartan II. His story is just one that's hard to live up to.
Also, the rest of humanities shaky relationship with the Sangheili is largely due to the understanding of halo that Thel 'Vademee gained while working with Chief to stop Tartarus and eventually the flood. Of course, these achievements don't apply to all Spartans, I just feel like Chief embodies the ideal spartan, which is why I said what I said to make a point.
tL Armada wrote:
Jed L 758 wrote:
I guess it's mainly because the process of becoming a spartan seems trivialized with them.
This is by and large due to the community's false perception of them, because it is not, at all, trivial to become a Spartan-IV. Safer? Yes, but there is still a screening process, as well as weeks-to-months of intense surgery and recovery time needed. There is also a grueling training regiment that is undergone to push the Spartans further than they've ever been. It's covered in multiple sources that it isn't as simple as just getting pricked with a few needles and BAM! done. Spartan made. It's a whole ordeal.
Jed L 758 wrote:
The augmentation process is a lot safer than it used to be,
As stated above; yes, safer, but it still contains its own risks, such as the Spartan-IVs needing to be "tuned-up" as it's referred, to ensure they don't have deterioration with their augments. They're only bested by the Gamma S-IIIs for needed monitoring of their health.
I also don't know why safer augmentations are a ding against the S-IVs: The S-III's augments were also safe. The maiming, disfigurement, and violent death incurred by augmentations was really only an S-II thing.

Jed L 758 wrote:
and the back stories are a lot less tragic than spartan II's.
Are they less? I find that "kidnapped at 6 and forced to become a child soldier" can also be matched with "watched home planet burned, constantly on the run from the Covenant, had family killed, fought desperately during the war to survive" for tragedy.
I really think the community refuses to believe that the S-IVs can have a tragic backstory rather than it be innately true.

Jed L 758 wrote:
To be a spartan meant to single-handedly win a battle, to blow up halo rings, stop the flood while fostering relations with a race that you were once at war with for years.
I mean, only Chief did that. I'm not sure why that's the certification that's needed to hold the title Spartan. They can do that, doesn't mean they have to do it.

Jed L 758 wrote:
Now S 5's are in fire teams that can barly hold of Prometheans.
Some context should be kept in mind, as the Prometheans weren't an enemy encountered before. Even Chief struggled when initially encountering them.
It also appears that by the time of Halo 5 the Spartans--and UNSC--are more versed in fighting them: Osiris didn't seem to have much trouble throughout their escapade.
tL Armada wrote:
Jed L 758 wrote:
I guess it's mainly because the process of becoming a spartan seems trivialized with them.
This is by and large due to the community's false perception of them, because it is not, at all, trivial to become a Spartan-IV. Safer? Yes, but there is still a screening process, as well as weeks-to-months of intense surgery and recovery time needed. There is also a grueling training regiment that is undergone to push the Spartans further than they've ever been. It's covered in multiple sources that it isn't as simple as just getting pricked with a few needles and BAM! done. Spartan made. It's a whole ordeal.
Jed L 758 wrote:
The augmentation process is a lot safer than it used to be,
As stated above; yes, safer, but it still contains its own risks, such as the Spartan-IVs needing to be "tuned-up" as it's referred, to ensure they don't have deterioration with their augments. They're only bested by the Gamma S-IIIs for needed monitoring of their health.
I also don't know why safer augmentations are a ding against the S-IVs: The S-III's augments were also safe. The maiming, disfigurement, and violent death incurred by augmentations was really only an S-II thing.

Jed L 758 wrote:
and the back stories are a lot less tragic than spartan II's.
Are they less? I find that "kidnapped at 6 and forced to become a child soldier" can also be matched with "watched home planet burned, constantly on the run from the Covenant, had family killed, fought desperately during the war to survive" for tragedy.
I really think the community refuses to believe that the S-IVs can have a tragic backstory rather than it be innately true.

Jed L 758 wrote:
To be a spartan meant to single-handedly win a battle, to blow up halo rings, stop the flood while fostering relations with a race that you were once at war with for years.
I mean, only Chief did that. I'm not sure why that's the certification that's needed to hold the title Spartan. They can do that, doesn't mean they have to do it.

Jed L 758 wrote:
Now S 5's are in fire teams that can barly hold of Prometheans.
Some context should be kept in mind, as the Prometheans weren't an enemy encountered before. Even Chief struggled when initially encountering them.
It also appears that by the time of Halo 5 the Spartans--and UNSC--are more versed in fighting them: Osiris didn't seem to have much trouble throughout their escapade.
You make some good points here and I see where you’re coming from. Like I said the spartan IV's – V’s are amazing in their own right, I like them. I’m not just saying this to hate on them for no reason.

I'm just saying the spartan II's might have more nostalgic value to fans.
Their story may be somewhat on par with Spartans today however there are other things to take into account. Yes, S IV's- V’s are the best of the best and still have grueling procedures and training to go through. They are adults though, they were born to interstellar war and major loss from an alien army, not just the insurrectionist. This is still horrible and sad. However, they are adults who are doing this knowing what they are getting into and why for the most part, also at least most knew their family. S II's never got a chance to have a full childhood, they never really knew their parents, and their original purpose wasn't even to fight the covenant.
By 2536 augmentation procedures had a mortality rate of 0%, granted the risk went up for spartan IV- 5 procedures and they would need a couple days to be able to walk again. Sure, but many spartan II’s straight up died or were left in a wheel chair for life. The kids didn’t ask for that. In this way, their transition wasn’t hardened UNSC soldier to super soldier. It was innocent super underaged civilian to super soldier. That makes it just a bit more tragic in my eyes, plus the nostalgic value of these Spartans.

(Reply to TheKiltdHeathen on the same issue)-
Sorry, I wasn't talking in general, should have been more specific. We have known John from the beginning. I feel like his story embodies what it means to be a spartan. So, when most fans think of a spartan, I imagine they think of Master Chief, one of the most if not the most well-known spartan II. His story is just one that's hard to live up to.
Also, the rest of humanities shaky relationship with the Sangheili is largely due to the understanding of halo that Thel 'Vademee gained while working with Chief to stop Tartarus and eventually the flood. Of course, these achievements don't apply to all Spartans, I just feel like Chief embodies the ideal spartan, which is why I said what I said to make a point.

Jed
I think a generation of Spartans can be truly judged until the next one steps in, for example S-Is can only be measured by Johnson who is the only one who was active in the games but being a classified operative his whole life, this generation fought mostly against separatists afaik.
The S-IIs being the more iconic by fighting the Covenant and used as poster boys to boost morale and far superior to their predecessors for the new way they were created they are the bench mark for the aims of the subsequent spartan programs, we all know the Chief as the most recognizable individual from this batch but as a whole, they are the symbol of the saga, this generation have faced the separatists, the covenant and the promethean army.
S-IIIs created as spiritual successors but cheaper they tried to compensate inferiority with numbers and according to lore, most of their demise might be attributed to being under equipped, with a questionable command line which always saw them as disposable and against odds that even S-II might have severe casualties, the most relevant elements being noble team, this generation faced separatists and the covenant armies afaik.
S-IVs the replacements of the previous generation still inferior to the S-IIs, superior to S-Is and slightly superior to S-IIIs they fulfill the need of super soldiers the situation requires, with a process not as strict as Dr Halsey's spartan program, but not as..."careless" of the S-IIIs but way faster than both to maintain a constant number of available spartans, and this numbers are what make the need to create a specialized branch, this generation have faced separatists, the covenant, the flood and the promethean.

So back to the point, S-IV are created as an "improvement" of the process to create mostly S-IIIs and some of the augmentations to create S-IIs this generation is like an amalgam of the two previous generations, this being both, good and bad, because the superiority of the S-IIs compared to S-Is came from the different approach Dr Halsey took to reach the same goal, while this generation took S-Is conscription methods, S-IIs implant procedures and S-IIIs drug supplements with updated weapons and armor for this result, that ended with a generation of heterogeneous individuals with a wide range of virtues and defects, as S-Is and S-IIIs, so no I don't hate them I see them as the inferior tiers that they're with all their strengths and weaknesses (as a whole and as individuals) and as support for the S-IIs who are the true heroes of the story.
Jed L 758 wrote:
We have known John from the beginning. I feel like his story embodies what it means to be a spartan. So, when most fans think of a spartan, I imagine they think of Master Chief, one of the most if not the most well-known spartan II. His story is just one that's hard to live up to.
Also, the rest of humanities shaky relationship with the Sangheili is largely due to the understanding of halo that Thel 'Vademee gained while working with Chief to stop Tartarus and eventually the flood. Of course, these achievements don't apply to all Spartans, I just feel like Chief embodies the ideal spartan, which is why I said what I said to make a point.
I think this is why a lot of fans hate the new direction, though it's much more realistic to the universe. Yes, John-117 is the "pinnacle Spartan" as it were, and an entire rank is renamed colloquially because of him. However the galaxy is much bigger than the Chief, and there are many more Spartans than him. He remains their example (Spartan VI initiates are shown his original helmet, and strive to live up to his standard), but he's not the only Spartan there is, and one day he will die.

And I honestly think that's for the better. Halo needs a character with depth, not the Doom Marine with a voice.
Kaine9539 wrote:
Kaine9539 wrote:
I lost all respect for her when she tried to assassinate halsey, shes a puppet, not a spartan
No. She's a soldier, not a rogue loose cannon who doesn't play by the rules and always gets her man. In all seriousness, she was given an order and attempted to carry it out. That gains her points in my book. It's her job. Takes a bad trooper to disregard orders from higher up. Without a chain of command, military doesn't work. What kind of example would Palmer set if she disobeyed orders and expected the other S-IVs to obey her? That wouldn't work out. I guarantee it.
You can't really use orders as an excuse, just look at how well that whole "I was just following orders" malarkey worked at the Nuremberg Trials during World War II. And in almost all modern militaries with nations like the U.K. and the U.S. soldiers are called to disobey orders when following through with them would be violating the law or be a war crime, a good soldier does not roboticly follow orders and just do whatever they're told.

And besides the main reason why the whole "just following orders" excuse especially doesn't work for Palmer is because it's not even true. Apparently the whole "orders are orders"/"just following orders BS only applies to the ones that Palmer actually wants to follow. She sets a horrid example all across the board, following only the orders she agrees with and violating both the law and the military's chain of command just because a superior ordered it (but only because it's what she's wanted to do all along). So, do you approve of soldiers breaking the law and being insubordinate just because they're ordered to and are just following said orders? Because that is pretty much what you're saying here.
You're comparing her executing Halsey to... a war crime here. Are you saying that they're out of their jurisdiction to order Halsey's death? I don't recall a specific event where Palmer disobeyed orders and only did what she agreed with instead. Even if that were the case, there are some thing people just don't do, soldier or not, like you said. Morality and war crimes and law and all that. Regardless, I don't see how that applies here.

I cant recall Palmer ever violating the military chain of command. Especially since you say she violated it just because a superior ordered her to. I don't get that. If she's being given orders by a superior, then she's maintaining that order, not violating it.
halsey is bad hmmmmmmmmkay
Stunning reply...
Jed L 758 wrote:
We have known John from the beginning. I feel like his story embodies what it means to be a spartan. So, when most fans think of a spartan, I imagine they think of Master Chief, one of the most if not the most well-known spartan II. His story is just one that's hard to live up to.
Also, the rest of humanities shaky relationship with the Sangheili is largely due to the understanding of halo that Thel 'Vademee gained while working with Chief to stop Tartarus and eventually the flood. Of course, these achievements don't apply to all Spartans, I just feel like Chief embodies the ideal spartan, which is why I said what I said to make a point.
I think this is why a lot of fans hate the new direction, though it's much more realistic to the universe. Yes, John-117 is the "pinnacle Spartan" as it were, and an entire rank is renamed colloquially because of him. However the galaxy is much bigger than the Chief, and there are many more Spartans than him. He remains their example (Spartan VI initiates are shown his original helmet, and strive to live up to his standard), but he's not the only Spartan there is, and one day he will die.

And I honestly think that's for the better. Halo needs a character with depth, not the Doom Marine with a voice.
Haha, I got you, that's a good point. I'm all for expanding on the Halo universe and fully exploring the UNSC military in and out of spartan operations (ODST 2 maybe). I just figured I'd give my take on why people might instinctively hate on spartan 4-5's. I feel like the superiority of the spartan II's compared to Orion and 3-5 is warranted. I don't think people should hate them as much as they do. Then again, some fans don't go past the games so, I can see why the latest Spartans wouldn't be as amazing to them. I don't really like some of the new art direction and a lot of that looks like it will be fixed with Infinite. Even if it isn't, it's not too much of a big deal as we often encounter years of change in the story due to cryo, so naturally, equipment would change as well almost every time we wake up. The marine outfits though, that's sacred...
As for the story and shift of focus from MC to a broader scope of the Halo universe. It looks like 343 is going in the right direction.
The reasons why Spartans 4’s tend to be arrogant and cocky and immature is because they were trained and drilled the military life at a young age like spartan 2’s and 3’s. Atleast that’s what I think
(I'm not sure if I ever previously replied to this thread before, I might have, too lazy to click thru 28 pages and find out, LOL. :P )

I think a lot of it, whether we consciously realize it or not, is - when we read fictional stories that we really really REALLY like, we start to read them with the mindset of a mythology. The characters and settings become archetypal symbols for us. They take on many new layers of meaning.

The Spartan II's were archetypal superheroes that kind of embodied the best of humanity. They represented empowerment against overwhelming odds with all the amazing things they could do; Halsey even discusses this in Halo 4.

When the SIV's came out and showed themselves to be a little more "human" and less idealized, that probably served to deconstruct that myth, for some people. They don't like seeing Spartans with "flaws" (even though personality traits like a healthy sense of humor or a healthy sex drive are not "flaws") because it reminds them of their own flaws, and there's this perception that Spartans should somehow be "above that."

I'm not saying any of this is right or wrong. I've gotten used to the SIV's and have no problem with them now. But I suspect this had to do with a good bit of why they were not well received at first.
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I realize the lore explanation for this is the 2's and 3's were bred for war from a young age at the 4's weren't so it would make sense the 4's have more personality that the 2's and 3's. That being said I believe this explanation was more or less a retcon from 343 after receiving backlash for how the spartans acted. The original spartans were silent, powerful, fearless, skilled, humble and ready at any time to sacrifice themselves for the cause of protecting humanity. 343 imagined spartans as being like the delta force in Blackhawk down, i.e.) cocky and arrogant because they knew they were the best. I dislike the spartan 4's due to the radical difference attitude wise they have between the 2's and 3's while still being marketed as "spartans" when the only difference 4's share with the previous generations is that they both wear mjolnir. amor and augmentations are not what make you a spartan, Spartans are the pinnacle of heroism, hope against all odds, and sacrifice. 4's don't fit any of these categories.

Like Halesy said in spartan ops "First we taught them to be silent, then we taught them how to be spartans"
I think if the Spartan 4 characters we’ve got so far were more fleshed out and made interesting instead of being 1 dimensional and a bit bland they would make more interesting characters. A big reason for Spartan 4’s also being disliked is because or their armour design. If in Infinite we see Spartan 4’s in classic halo armour with better personalities I think they’ll be a lot more liked.
I dislike the spartan 4's due to the radical difference attitude wise they have between the 2's and 3's ....
I feel people don't look deeply when they lump S-IIIs into the same boat as S-IIs with regards to "stoic, serious and totally professional". The S-IIIs are shown to be divergent in their personalities. They are serious, sure, but they have had their fair share of teenage jesting, messing around, and teasing.
I also think people take a look at how the S-IVs act out of combat zones and try to purport that they always act like that. For all the backlash Majestic receives about their "dude-bro ways", they straightened up when they were on-mission. Osiris were shown to throw some jabs at each other, but when the light went green, they were serious.
I'm not sure why there is this great need for Spartans to be so rigid all the time.
....while still being marketed as "spartans" when the only difference 4's share with the previous generations is that they both wear mjolnir.
You say difference, but I think you meant similarity. Whatever the case, it's still wrong. Spartan-IVs continue the storied legacy of previous generations in that they continue being humanity's absolute peak warfighting combatant. No other human force comes close.
They still achieve the same goal that the ancient Greeks sought; the ultimate fighter. True, the S-IVs aren't trained from childhood, but they still have had years of combat experience in certain cases and continue to train when not on active combat assignments.
amor and augmentations are not what make you a spartan, Spartans are the pinnacle of heroism, hope against all odds, and sacrifice. 4's don't fit any of these categories.

And I question why? Why do the S-IV not fulfill any criteria that you listed?
Heroism seemed to have been achieved in Halo 5 when Osiris was willing to help civilians under siege by Prometheans on Meridian, they also seemed to go against all odds when a mega Bionicle with his endless supply of bodies tries to stop them, and again when Cortana uses an actual Guardian to try and stop them from getting Blue team's Cryptum. Sacrifice was also achieved when "Mr. Dude-Bro in the flesh!" DeMarco sacrificed himself without hesitation in Escalations, as well as Davis in Spartan Assault.
maybe because they think they are the best of the best, they are not humble
maybe because they think they are the best of the best, they are not humble
Show me one Spartan II, III, or Marine from Halo who is humble.
They are my favorite since they act more "human"

Post why you like or dislike S4's.
They were written and created poorly. They act childish. Act very unaware of the seriousness of anything they’re ever doing, and are by far the weakest and foolish of all Spartans. But I guess you consider that “human”. plus have you ever seen Palmer? Lol
I think the majority of people that dislike the Spartan IV generation are the OG Halo fans and they know everything on how the Spartan II's went through training and everything they dealt with. The Spartan IV's almost seem like children compared to the Spartan II's. Also another factor might be that IV's take thier helmets off all the time showing their human side more rather than like II's staying in their armor the whole time and being more like a a master of war.
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