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Why do people hate Spartan IV's?

OP Imperator Rage

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EvilKeny28 wrote:
Bully?
As in "bully for you".

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Jun would have been a good choice (I never understood why they put him to the side like that when he is still quite young).
Jun isn't put aside. He chose to be non-combatant, and is in fact Palmer's direct superior. He is Chief of Staff of Spartan Operations, second in command and subordinate only to Rear Admiral Musa Ghanem, the Commander-in-Chief of Spartans.

Buck, on the other hand, continuously and frequently self-sabbotaged himself to be inelligable for promotion so that he could remain a squad leader. He even remarks to Locke that he misses being an ODST, when things were simple. He would not have been a good candidate for Spartan Commander, and plainly would not have wanted it. More than this, it's not about rank. Whatever rank soldiers had going into the Spartan Program did not and do not matter one bit. They now have one rank across the board; Spartan.

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Care to mention which are the other Spartan leaders, or where you even heard of such a thing?
Page 7 of the Official Spartan Field Manual, Spartan Palmer is listed as the Spartan Commander, UNSC Infinity. This is again repeated on Page 110, with the added information that she is Spartan Commander aboard the UNSC Infinity and is the senior Spartan for Expeditionary Strike Group One (ESG 1). The role of Spartan Commander has the responsibilities of Overall command-and-control of Spartan Companies. It is comparable in UNSC authority to the rank of Colonel.

With the ESG being numbered, it stands to well reason that there are more Strike Groups. Each with their own Spartan Commander. Sarah Palmer is stationed aboard the Infinity, and as Spartan Commander is comparable to Colonel - and there are definitely more than one Colonels in any military branch - it also stands to reason that there would be other Spartan Commanders in charge of other Spartan groups.

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Um, proof? Since when does that happen more often?
Since... ever? Commanders do not have to report to their subordinates on their comings and goings. They only report to their superiors. When I was a civilian employee for the Air Force, our Base Commander never reported to any of her subordinates what she was doing. Even when I lived on-base during a war-time situation (9-/11), Command gave orders, and that was it. They did not report to their subordinates what they were doing, because they didn't need to know. Similarly, the various Fireteams did not need to know what CDR Palmer was doing. Roland informed Miller what he needed to know (as, again, Palmer was busy with a very dangerous and intelligent prisoner,) and Miller was fully capable of running the Ops in her direct absence.

We also have no idea how many times Miller tried to contact Palmer on her personal communications. It could have been three, it could have been one. It does not matter, as she literally had her hands full with an arrest. The Commander does not stop to pick up the phone when the First Lieutenant is curious where she's at. Expecting this is lunacy, and a complete misunderstanding of the Chain of Command. Reports go up, not down. If Captain Lasky, or RADM Musa, would have attempted to reach her, that would be another issue entirely. But, seeing as CAPT Lasky was the one who gave the arrest order, that's a pointless line of "what if". And with Oth Lodon as well, a Spartan on the field doesn't have time for constant babysitting and micro-managing, and Palmer is absolutely within her right and authority to cut comms.

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Pretty sure the military doesn't make constant use of the term 'egghead' when referring to the other party.
No, usually they make use of worse terms. Get over it.

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On the contrary, its due to their constant use of that word that makes it feel like fiction. That and Palmer personal dislike of doctors and its quite clear where she stands on the issue.
Seven times. That is not constant, and far from as prolific as you people make it out to be. So Palmer doesn't like scientists and doctors; so what? ODST rabidly hated Spartans, but how often do we hear people whining about that? (Which, to point, we never hear her personal opinions on Spartans). Not to mention that in the broader story of things, the scientists screwed up a lot, and Palmer's Spartans had to directly deal with the deadly threats that were a result of those screw ups. A lot. So I'd say a little soldier-to-soldier derision is warranted; it's not like she stormed down to Science Deck and started trashing the place.

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Dutch and Romeo are not nearly as brash/rash as Palmer
You're right; they're worse. Romeo had such a mouth on him that his Squad Leader gave him a standing order to shut up. To which he still retained a pain-in-the--Yoink- attitude. He mocked the UNSC fleet being destroyed on Earth, assaulted the Rookie to wake him up, and even made light of the Rookie being dead. He is noted as acting aggressively and abrasively with almost every squad member. He racked-up multiple code of conduct violations, which should have resulted in demotion or Court Marshal, but was kept only because the UNSC were running out of battle tested snipers.

Dutch, to a lesser extent, was known to handle Romeo quite roughly, as well as making off-color and vaguely religious remarks derissively to squadmates. He even belittled a rookie of the 105th, calling him a "dumb-BLAM!-". Something Palmer sure never did to her subordinates, even when they were.

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The difference is that Johnson isn't in charge of all the Spartan Fireteams, he is only a Staff Sergeant.
Oh... That's the difference, huh? Nevermind that he also pushes his troops to the limit during training, takes little tolerance for their discomfort and fear, and deals with subordinates during a combat situation no differently than Palmer.

If the misogynist shoe fits, lace that -BLAM- up.

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Except for that one time when Madson stops paying attention to his surrounding on a battlefield and Hoya stupidly getting out of cover and almost gets killed. The fact that Madson only got into the Spartan program due to nepotism is a strike against him as well as the program as a whole.
No, it's a strike against those two Generals. Nepotism happens quite often in the military (no, I don't have direct proof of this), and one example of it does not strike the entire program; when a General says something, things happen. When TWO say something, things really happen.

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I expect them to follow orders. If they couldn't do even that it would lower my view of the Spartan 4s even more. And on that note, Thorne did disobey DeMarco's orders that one time but it was a good call so I let it slide.
Oh, so it's bad except for when it works. Your sense of judgement is so very skewed it's not even funny.

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Palmer got distracted by the conversation enough that Halsey managed to get far enough to start running away. This should not have happened considering she was in enemy/unknown territory with a wanted criminal.
Halsey was at most five paces from Palmer at all times, which is more than enough for a Spartan to cover with no issue. Being ambushed by a Harvester prevented this, and was the only thing that allowed Halsey to escape.
Sugusuck wrote:
Murdering Halsey without a trial would be a war crime. Soldiers have standing orders to disobey their superiors when those orders are immoral or illegal.
As much of a farce as it was in the book, Halsey was given a trial.
Was she? I don't recall that, but it has been a while since I read the books. Even so, to be tried, convicted, and executed is one thing. To be assassinated is completely different.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Halsey was at most five paces from Palmer at all times, which is more than enough for a Spartan to cover with no issue. Being ambushed by a Harvester prevented this, and was the only thing that allowed Halsey to escape.
I still don't understand what you mean by 'bully'.

Fair enough.
It could simply be that out of the first batch of Spartan 4s she was the most promising for the position (strangely enough considering her personality).

That's just a theory and not a fact that there are other Commanders. I'm not saying you are flat out wrong, I'm saying we have never seen or hear of any other Commander aside from Palmer. ESG1 could mean a lot of things; perhaps there is a ESG2 but that by itself does not mean that Palmer wouldn't also be in charge of it. Ultimately this is just speculation and nothing more.

The issue isn't that the fireteams didn't know her location, the issue is that Miller and other liaison officers had no idea what happened to her. Miller isn't qualified to be a Commander and his job is only to serve as a in-between for the fireteams to Palmer, without her his job becomes almost redundant. Considering how small the Spartan branch is as well as the fact that Palmer is the only actual Commander during the campaign while others only act as liaison, this means that her sudden disappearance would impact the overall deployment of Spartan fireteams during that period.
I'm not saying that she needed to tell them where she was going, she would have let Miller know privately that she would unreachable for some time but it seems she didn't even do that. Hence why I claim she was being irresponsible.
Whether she was within her authority to do so is irrelevant as it was an immature and irresponsible response to the situation.

Depends where in the military. Spartans are taken from the best and are expected to act professionally. This is one reason why Halsey disapproved of the Spartan 4s.

Seven times is quite a bit considering how many times they are mentioned.
Sure they screwed up a lot but considering what they are dealing with that was going to be a given.

Fair enough for Romeo, though I'm convinced Dutch is worse than Palmer.

Uh, you mean he actually acts like a drill sergeant? Gee that sounds exactly like what I said his attitude was. Regardless you failed to mention his attitude during Contact Harvest and Silent Storm which is far more tempered than Palmer's. Even as his worst Johnson was never as bad as Palmer and was always well meaning as well as understood his fellow soldiers well.
The misogynist shoes will only fit some people, but those with real critic of Palmer don't care about her gender.

Nepotism happens but shouldn't happen at all in the Spartan branch. A place where you want the best of the best to take on the toughest missions. In fact some people use Madson as well as the fact that an Innie managed to get past the selection process as proof that the security of the Spartan 4 selection is sub-par. One example may not mean that the whole program is damaged but it sets a precedent which means that other members might have entered the program via similar means.

What's funny is you not even attempting to understand what I meant. Thorne did disobey a direct order and it was indeed a good call, but its doesn't entirely absolve him of offense. On the other hand Hoya's previous disobeying orders was a bad call that got him in the infirmary. I 'let it slide' due to the circumstances of the situation and those involved, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be repercussions.

She was more than 5 paces away and shouldn't have gotten that far regardless. Palmer couldn't do anything about the Harvesters arrival I agree but her actions leading up to it arrival were not professional.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Halsey was at most five paces from Palmer at all times, which is more than enough for a Spartan to cover with no issue. Being ambushed by a Harvester prevented this, and was the only thing that allowed Halsey to escape.
I still don't understand what you mean by 'bully'.

'bully', in the way he/she used it, means 'good'. Basically, 'bully for you' is another way to say 'Good for you'
I think people are quick to downplay the SIV's as wannabe's, or cocky. But havent they earned that?
During the Human-Covenant War, and subsequent Flood uprising, the Spartans were, after considerable declassification, admired by those serving in the UNSC. They were legendary heroes. I think many wished themselves to be as good as thier mentor/hero.
After the war ended, and the Spartan Division was in its infancy, service men and women were approached to volunteer for the new SPARTAN Branch; they were sought out by the best, to become the best. Look at Edward Buck, damn fine soldier, illustrious career, was chosen to opt in for this new endeavor. Olymipa Vale, due to her accomplishments, was selected. Agent Locke, and his lethal efficiency, and professional duty earned him the right to be chosen for this program.
Now, finally, these hand selected men and women would walk in the same shoes as thier heroes. Stand side by side with legends, and be able to call themselves Spartans. That would inflate anyone's ego. So yeah, they're cocky, and yeah they dont have the same discipline, but even former Spartans saw something in them that made them great, that could make make them, Spartans.
I think people are quick to downplay the SIV's as wannabe's, or cocky. But havent they earned that?
During the Human-Covenant War, and subsequent Flood uprising, the Spartans were, after considerable declassification, admired by those serving in the UNSC. They were legendary heroes. I think many wished themselves to be as good as thier mentor/hero.
After the war ended, and the Spartan Division was in its infancy, service men and women were approached to volunteer for the new SPARTAN Branch; they were sought out by the best, to become the best. Look at Edward Buck, damn fine soldier, illustrious career, was chosen to opt in for this new endeavor. Olymipa Vale, due to her accomplishments, was selected. Agent Locke, and his lethal efficiency, and professional duty earned him the right to be chosen for this program.
Now, finally, these hand selected men and women would walk in the same shoes as thier heroes. Stand side by side with legends, and be able to call themselves Spartans. That would inflate anyone's ego. So yeah, they're cocky, and yeah they dont have the same discipline, but even former Spartans saw something in them that made them great, that could make make them, Spartans.
The main reason people downplay the S4s is due to certain individuals giving a negative first impression during their Spartan Ops debut.
DeMarco, Hoya, Madsen and Palmer all displayed phycological characteristic that at times made then appear immature and in certain instances caused them difficulties. The only reason this critic has been applied to them however is because of the shoes they are trying to fill. Due to them being called Spartans many people have contrasted them to the previous two generations and found them wanting, which explains Halsey's view on them overall.

I'll reiterate though that this was the first impression; since then we have had many showings of Spartan 4s that are shown to be professional, capable and worthy of the title Spartan. Fireteam Crimson, Fireteam Osiris, Fireteam Shadow, Buck, Davis, Fireteam Apollo have demonstrated abilities that gives merit to their title of Spartan. That said, one must remember that due to its origins this Spartan generation is the most diverse yet and as such has a much higher variance in ability between the high and low ends of the program candidates. Just as there are individuals which to the Spartan 4 program justice there are those who tarnish its reputation. Madson's entrance into the program via nepotism and Schein's infiltration have caused people to believe that the Spartan 4 candidate selection scrutiny to be less-than acceptable. Scruggs being knocked out by an overweight marine during their first training session despite selected in the first class was also deemed less than impressive.

Another problem I see crope up is that some people believe that all Spartan 4s come from veteran backgrounds. This is not the case however as while some are indeed career veterans others are young soldiers than show considerable promise. Thorne doesn't have an extensive military background, Holt had never encountered a Sangheili on the battlefield, Vale had only participated in one engagement prior to becoming a spartan. All this paints the picture than the experience level of Spartan 4s varies considerably depending on the individual.

A detail that is often unknown is that the Spartan 4 program isn't selecting candidates for the same reasons as the previous generations. The Spartans of old were chosen for their potential combat capabilities, and while this is still an important criterion it has need noted that Spartan Command is seeking to cultivate warriors highly attuned to the complexities of a post-war threat environment hence why individuals such as Vale were selected despite a lack of combat experience. This is why some individuals, whom fans fail to understand their presence in the program, have become Spartan 4.

One final point I will bring up is talent. Many often overlook this detail and claim that the main difference between the S2s and S4s is experience. The Spartan 4s are indeed taken from the best and most promising soldiers that the UNSC has to offer however the Spartan 2s were taken from the very best humanity has to offer. The Spartan 2s as children were freaks, they capable of extreme capabilities such as mastering high level maths, evading ONI target acquisition teams, accidentally killing full grown men in training exercises, all this and more while very young and unaugmented. There is a reason why Halsey claimed that each of these individuals could have been the next Alexandre the conqueror in another life.
That said that doesn't mean that Spartan 4s cannot compete as due to the high variety I mentioned earlier, there are bound to be some among the Spartan 4s that display talent close to or even matching the Spartan 2s. Vale is not only consistently referred to as a genius but also displays great combat talent as she was able to make it into the top 5% of UNSC marine War Games score despite her low level experience. Locke was able to hold his own in fist fight against the Master Chief.
All this said these individuals should be seen as exceptions rather than the rule among Spartan 4s considering that when judging the first class of Spartan 4s (which were selected to severely on ability that only Buck among Alpha-9 made the cut) Jun claimed that "some are alright while others are much better". So even among the absolute best soldiers available a fair few were considered as only 'alright' by a Spartan 3.
They are arrogant and every H5 Spartan is one.
They are arrogant and every H5 Spartan is one.
In what way, pray tell, are they arrogant.
So how many forum ranks have you gained by fighting this silly fight? Like you are literally 98% of this thread's posts.

People don't like new things. People don't like new things that are, from the moment they appear, implied to be 'replacing' the things they love. People love the Chief and don't want to see him replaced. At the end of the day, despite all the other reasons why they may be hated and all the reasons you think they shouldn't be, people just don't like that.

Just let them voice their opinions and move on with your life at this point. You're just wasting time trying to 'win' the argument that most people don't even care about fighting. You're not going to change their minds, just as you failed to change mine.
For me the reason why i don't like the spartan 4s is because it doesn't feel like they earned the spartan title. The 2s and 3s were trained as children like the ancient Spartans were. The 2s were selected because as Halsey put it they were the best humanity could offer. The 3s weren't as special but they were also trained as kids like the original Spartans. whereas the 4s to me feel like oh you were an odst welp you're a spartan now. not tossin on the odsts they are badass on there own level. also being able to volunteer and enlist to become a spartan jsut feels unearned.
So how many forum ranks have you gained by fighting this silly fight? Like you are literally 98% of this thread's posts.
Don't know and don't care; I'm debating it because I enjoy it and find the topic worthy of discussion and debate. In any case I wasn't talking about anything with you, so why do you care?
EvilKeny28 wrote:
It could simply be that out of the first batch of Spartan 4s she was the most promising for the position (strangely enough considering her personality).
Personality has very little to do with skill, accomplishment, and rank.

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That's just a theory and not a fact that there are other Commanders. I'm not saying you are flat out wrong, I'm saying we have never seen or hear of any other Commander aside from Palmer. ESG1 could mean a lot of things; perhaps there is a ESG2 but that by itself does not mean that Palmer wouldn't also be in charge of it.
No, actually it's not a theory, which we'll get to here. In any military, there is never just one rank. There are even multiple Generals and Admirals. CDR Palmer is expressly stated in multiple sources to be the Spartan Commander of the Infinity, in command of the 300 Spartans on board the ship. There are over 500 Spartans in the Spartan IV program; this leaves 200 at the very least unaccounted for, who are not stationed on the Infinity and thus are not under CDR Palmer's command. This is not speculation, these are facts as provided.

The UNSC Meriwether Lewis has it's own Spartan contingent, and Edward Buck was formerly the Spartan Commander of that contingent. This is proof and fact that there are multiple Spartan Commanders.

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The issue isn't that the fireteams didn't know her location, the issue is that Miller and other liaison officers had no idea what happened to her.
As I'm pretty sure I mentioned before, immediately after Miller mentioned that CDR Palmer can't be reached, Roland - the AI Director of the Infinity - informed him that she was busy. Boom, informed with some idea. Immediately after that, Miller told Roland that he was in charge; sure knew enough to successfully run the Op without Palmer directly. In fact, the character-at-fault here is Miller, being overbearing as usual. He was given all the information that he needed, and was more than capable of running the operation. Palmer - as we know, and as he didn't need to know - was extremely busy guarding Halsey, who was currently under arrest and a direct threat to the Infinity by observation. The only update she needed - which she did receive by Roland - was that Thorne was found on Requiem.

It was that easy to get in contact with her. For things that were necessary, not a play-by-play of Crimson's activities. She even told Miller this on the first mission; to just give her the big updates, not every little thing. Miller wasn't a Commander, true. He was a Mission Handler, meaning that it was his job to ensure that the mission went smoothly. Palmer was not directly needed on the Ops Deck, she only needed updates - which she got - on the really important things.

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Spartans are taken from the best and are expected to act professionally. This is one reason why Halsey disapproved of the Spartan 4s.
No, Halsey disapproved of the Spartan IV's because they weren't hers. Also, while the first Spartan group was choice selected, the second class was not. In going through the dialogue, Thorne mentions that he enlisted in the Spartans. And, as mentioned in New Blood once funding was secured off the success of the first class, they were able to broaden the range of Spartan applicants. Thus, why soldiers like Romeo and Mickey were able to become Spartans.

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Seven times is quite a bit considering how many times they are mentioned.
The Science teams are mentioned - in full - 148 times. I might have missed a couple. Seven uses of "egghead" is only 4% of the entire mentions of either a Science team or Science personnel. That is very far from "quite a bit". What's more, the comments of "eggheads" are always Spartan-to-Spartan; Science teams and personnel are always referred to properly. This is no more different than Science personnel caricaturing Spartans and soldiers as "meatheads" or the like. You even hear this angle from time to time; Halsey accusing Palmer of treating a research operation like a "Live-fire exercise," or Spartans being given the opportunity to exercise their "penchant for blowing stuff up".

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Sure they screwed up a lot but considering what they are dealing with that was going to be a given.
Have you ever had to clean up after someone mess? It's frustrating enough when it's food or human waste; I can only imagine what that feels like when it involves death. And Infinity Science tends to mess up by tinkering with things that endanger the entire Infinity crew, or do stuff like reroute a bases defenses to power a generator for experiments.

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Fair enough for Romeo, though I'm convinced Dutch is worse than Palmer.
Then, while not a Spartan IV, there's also Emile and half the Spartan III's. There's Black and Grey Teams from the Spartan II's. There's quite a bit of unprofessionalism throughout the classes.

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Uh, you mean he actually acts like a drill sergeant? Gee that sounds exactly like what I said his attitude was. Regardless you failed to mention his attitude during Contact Harvest and Silent Storm which is far more tempered than Palmer's. Even as his worst Johnson was never as bad as Palmer and was always well meaning as well as understood his fellow soldiers well.
Only Johnson is not, nor has been so far as I can find, a drill sergeant. Furthermore his behavior and Palmer's behavior are really no different. Palmer understands her soldiers, she reprimands them when they need it, and she shows many times strong concern for her soldiers - even Marines. Hell, the first scene we see with her, she's showing grave concern for their wounded. Criticism of her attitude and behavior comes from a gross misunderstanding of military culture and soldier camaraderie. A culture where you literally greet your best friend - often - by what anyone else would take as insults and slander.

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Nepotism happens but shouldn't happen at all in the Spartan branch.
Somewhat covered up above; the second class of Spartan IV's were not recruited so strictly as the first class. As such, nepotism - especially in the form of recommendation from two Generals - would not be the worst thing in the world. That, and it's not like Madsen has had a poor record. He's not skating on family alone.

And no, Insurrectionists don't "get through" the screening. Spartans have become sympathetic to Insurrectionist ideologies. There is a difference. Yet the UNSC is full of defectors and Insurrectionist sympathizers. As well as Spartan II's that went off the range; some committing suicide and some - like Grey Team - being constant "problem children".
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Somewhat covered up above; the second class of Spartan IV's were not recruited so strictly as the first class. As such, nepotism - especially in the form of recommendation from two Generals - would not be the worst thing in the world. That, and it's not like Madsen has had a poor record. He's not skating on family alone.

And no, Insurrectionists don't "get through" the screening. Spartans have become sympathetic to Insurrectionist ideologies. There is a difference. Yet the UNSC is full of defectors and Insurrectionist sympathizers. As well as Spartan II's that went off the range; some committing suicide and some - like Grey Team - being constant "problem children".
Never said it did, I was talking more in the sense that combat ability =/= leadership ability. But I digress.

Okay.

Fair enough. It just seemed strange to me before.

Yes she does disapprove of the S4s due to not being hers but she also disapproves due to physiological and psychological changes made to this Spartan generation, like she said. All Spartan 4s are choice selected, they are all approached and given a choice, none are forced. As you said the first batch was limited due to budget hence why they only chose the soldiers with the best files.

Okay.

To be fair I understand, but when dealing with Forerunner tech things like that were bound to happen. Thinking otherwise is just naïve, still I too would probably be frustrated if I were in their shoes. All I'm saying is that some things can't be helped.

Well considering their conscription origins isn't not entirely surprising that some S2s would have rebellious tendencies. Grey Team may act troublesome with Command but they still perform their work professionally. Black Team is a unique case where one member was plagued by a past psychological issue which caused trouble for the Team, but they got over it and the Team became stronger as a result.
The Spartan 3s on the other hand are a whole different beast as they were orphans from the war that were not screened for psychological issues like the Spartan 2s were. With children full of rage and trauma it was a given that some of them would turn out like this.
The Spartan 4s on the other hand is entirely up to Command to choose who they want and no kidnapping is involved. You can't really compare them.

No he is a Staff Sergent but he has been used in the past to train recruits in a similar way to a drill sergent. There is also the fact that Johnson was probably the most experienced veteran during the war, and when surrounded by much less experienced marines for a long time its not hard to imagine certain instructor tendencies would develop.
I don't agree with you that Johnson and Palmer act the same, but I respect your opinion enough to end this particular point here.

Schein did get through the screening.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Yes she does disapprove of the S4s due to not being hers but she also disapproves due to physiological and psychological changes made to this Spartan generation, like she said.
She did not say this.

In Halo 4 she stated once that "Children's minds are more easily accepting of indoctrination, their bodies more adaptable to augmentation. The result was the ultimate soldier." This was in answer to the ONI Interrogator accusing her of kidnapping children. This also only speaks to her rationalization of ONI's use of children (which actually makes it sound a much easier choice than it was in the books,) and does not mention that children were used due to technological restraints on trying to augment adults.

In Spartan Ops, when Thorne is asking her about the original Spartans (in truth, the Spartan II's, not Orion) Halsey again states "There were many reasons behind the choices we had to make. Psychological and physiological." Thorne questions this, saying "Psychological? So you don't think we're capable of being Spartans." Halsey replies "Perhaps some of you are closer than others."This is not her disagreeing with the Spartan IV Program because of their methods, or even really the psychology of the Spartan IV's.

She is blatantly ignoring the many flaws that were present in the Spartan II program; the washouts, the run-aways, the defectors. Giving allowance that some Spartan IV's are "closer than others" slams the door wide open that the physiological and psychological standards of the Spartan IV Program are not the issue, and that it boils down to her being salty that she's not heading the project. That her research was built off of, rather than her innovating it herself, and that there are 500+ Spartans who don't see her as a mother, but as a mad scientist. Halsey resents her imprisonment (and to be frankly clear, so do I,) and so she's egotistically taking out her frustration on the Spartan IV's.

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All Spartan 4s are choice selected, they are all approached and given a choice, none are forced.
Correct, none are forced. However only the first class was choice-selected, classes after that were open for enlistment.

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To be fair I understand, but when dealing with Forerunner tech things like that were bound to happen. Thinking otherwise is just naïve, still I too would probably be frustrated if I were in their shoes. All I'm saying is that some things can't be helped.
True, but some things can be mitigated. They could have security squads, or - like several missions - send Spartans in first to make sure everything is safe.

My point is that Spartans or soldiers calling the science teams "egg-heads" (or the science teams calling the soldiers any number of names) isn't unprofessional when they're only using those terms in like company. None of the uses of "egg-head" are used directly to the science team, so even if it's taken as an insult professionalism is still maintained. Example: I used to work in the food service industry, and I wager you'd be aghast at some of the things we used to say about troublesome customers. However, we never said those things to their faces. We served them politely and efficiently, and complained to fellow staff away from customer hearing. Thus, we remained professional.

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Well considering their conscription origins isn't not entirely surprising that some S2s would have rebellious tendencies.
In the same vein, that the Spartan IV's are recruited from adult soldiers who just won a decades long war facing total extinction, their degree of cockiness. It's like Lasky said: "For too many years, Humanity was on the back foot. Reacting to threats, rather than preventing them. The rest of the Galaxy was bigger than us. Stronger than us. We were mice, hiding in the shadows, hoping the giants would not see us. No more. Humanity is no longer on the defense. We are the giants now.
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Grey Team may act troublesome with Command but they still perform their work professionally.
1. That's actually a huge issue. Being troublesome and disrespectful toward Command (which Grey Team is) is far more problematic than any Spartan IV (excluding those that actually go traitor) have done.
2. Grey Team gets the job done, but they are far from professional. They're incredibly dismissive and abrasive toward civilians, damn near hostile towards those not affiliated with the UEG (who aren't always URF or other Insurrectionist groups).

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Black Team is a unique case where one member was plagued by a past psychological issue which caused trouble for the Team, but they got over it and the Team became stronger as a result.
Except for when their inter-squad romances and jealousies are exploited to turn them on one another. Clearly, they didn't get over anything.

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The Spartan 4s on the other hand is entirely up to Command to choose who they want and no kidnapping is involved. You can't really compare them.
Only the first class. And the point here is that there are problems present in all of the Spartan programs, inherent to their various procedures and protocols. The Spartan II's above, and being built on unethical (yet necessary) measures. The Spartan III's built on orphans of genocide and exploited from that fact. The Spartan IV's in that they are adult soldiers with pre-existing behaviors and opinions. They are being compared already in that the Spartan IV's are treated as "bad", and paling in comparison to the previous programs. Yet in reality they're no worse than any of the other classes.

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No he is a Staff Sergent but he has been used in the past to train recruits in a similar way to a drill sergent.
Not really. Johnson trained Colonial Militia to be better soldiers, a Drill Sergeant (in the Marines it would be Drill Instructor) trains completely new recruits to the military branch. A small difference, but a necessary one. Reading over training excerpts, Johnson was also at times very short with the militia, having to exercise great restraint in keeping his anger with them in check. His behavior on Harvest is really no different than Palmer's. Hell, he even got into a fist fight with a fellow soldier.

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Schein did get through the screening.
Yes, he did; I had forgotten about Rudolf Schein. Important to note, however, that he was a member of the second class of Spartan IV's that were opened up to enlistment, rather than recruitment. His military career was spotless, and his affiliation with the United Rebel Front after the Human-Covenant War was completely unknown. He enlisted with recommendation from his superiors. His infiltration didn't go unnoticed for long, though, as ONI intercepted a URF transmission that they had infiltrated the program.

You are right that there was infiltration, but I don't think it's a black mark against the Spartan IV Program. His involvement was literally unknown and overshadowed by a flawless military career. The newer narrative seems to be shifting towards the realism that treason and infiltration can happen in any organization and any branch of Armed Services.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Yes, he did; I had forgotten about Rudolf Schein. Important to note, however, that he was a member of the second class of Spartan IV's that were opened up to enlistment, rather than recruitment. His military career was spotless, and his affiliation with the United Rebel Front after the Human-Covenant War was completely unknown. He enlisted with recommendation from his superiors. His infiltration didn't go unnoticed for long, though, as ONI intercepted a URF transmission that they had infiltrated the program.

You are right that there was infiltration, but I don't think it's a black mark against the Spartan IV Program. His involvement was literally unknown and overshadowed by a flawless military career. The newer narrative seems to be shifting towards the realism that treason and infiltration can happen in any organization and any branch of Armed Services.
Yes she did. Her journal gives a lot of insight on her choices for the Spartan 2 program which fits very well with what she told the Interrogator.
"Some are closer than others" does not mean they are on the same level, she merely recognises that some S4 have potential while other, like Madsen and DeMarco, she clearly disapproves of. Had she been in charge of the program it probably would have looked a fair bit different than it does now. She definitely is salty about her situation but that doesn't mean what she said can be chalked up to venting frustration.

We agree.

True enough. I guess I was just comparing the professionalism of the Spartan 2s to the Spartan 4s.

That's a good point. Especially for the younger S4s who didn't experience as much war as some of the more veteran soldiers who would be more jaded.

1) It may be worse at the Command level, but not at the tactical level.
2) Many Spartan 2s are dismissive towards civilians and non-UEG, but they are not hostile, disrespectful or insulting.

I meant after the whole issue. By the end of comic the problem is resolved and they start working as they should be.

By worse people are usually referring to overall quality of the soldiers, which is indeed higher for the S2s and S3s. Of course there are other factors to consider such as ethical situation, sustainability etc... I'm just explaining what a lot of fans mean by 'worse'.

Small difference indeed, they were raw recruits as far as I remember.
I honestly don't see the similarity between his and Palmer's attitude.
The fist fight was with a (assumed) fellow ORION soldier who had a score to settle with Johnson; also Johnson didn't start the fight and wasn't looking for one.

I am aware he was not part of the first class, but that doesn't change much as it means that the screening protocols they have/had in place were insufficient to detect such in infiltration. Considering the nature the Spartan program they should have been more careful. He may not have gone undetected long but he still managed to do some damage. Still I will acknowledge that since that incident Command took extra precautions to avoid another such situation.
My favourite Spartan-IV is still Ilsa Zane.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
Yes she did. Her journal gives a lot of insight on her choices for the Spartan 2 program which fits very well with what she told the Interrogator.
That doesn't - and can't - speak for her thoughts on the Spartan IV Program. It can only reflect her justifications for the Spartan II program, and is also limited by the technology of the time. Her opinion of the Spartan IV's still is rooted in her jaded demeanor that they're not her Spartans. It's far from a fact to their inferiority, nor does it indicate that they're "not Spartans". Halsey, brilliant though she may be, doesn't set that standard.

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It may be worse at the Command level, but not at the tactical level.
It is, though. Grey Team had massive tactical issues brought on by the squad's inability to work together efficiently. For all the drum-up of Spartans being able to put personal stuff on the back-burner, Grey Team had a lot of baggage that they ended up dragging around Carrow. Not to mention being disrespectful or problematic towards Command is a huge issue in and of itself.

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Many Spartan 2s are dismissive towards civilians and non-UEG, but they are not hostile, disrespectful or insulting.
Grey Team was, if memory serves from Convoy. Frankly Grey Team is one of my least favorite Spartan teams. Their edginess is just... unfitting.

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I meant after the whole issue. By the end of comic the problem is resolved and they start working as they should be.
Fair point.

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Small difference indeed, they were raw recruits as far as I remember.
They weren't recruits at all. They were a Militia; Johnson was only there to make sure they were ready for combat. If memory serves (it's been a while since reading Contact Harvest,) none of them were recruits.

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I honestly don't see the similarity between his and Palmer's attitude.
He was incredibly short and abrasive with the Militia, treating them as a detachment rather than soldiers under his command. Palmer, on the other hand, rarely loses composure with her troops, and shows nothing but deep commitment and care for them. She doesn't even lose it when they deserve a reprimand, like when Hoya disobeyed DeMarco's orders. I'm not saying that Johnson is a monster and Palmer is an angel, but the two are more common than not. Johnson just has the edge of being comedic relief.

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I am aware he was not part of the first class, but that doesn't change much as it means that the screening protocols they have/had in place were insufficient to detect such in infiltration. Considering the nature the Spartan program they should have been more careful.
Realistically, there was very little they could have done to prevent it. He had a spotless service record. He had unwavering loyalty to the UNSC. He had recommendations from all of his Commanding Officers. To deny him enlistment based on his father's actions - when all evidence points to non-affiliation - would have opened up a lot of problems for the UNSC, and potentially swayed soldiers away from UEG support.

(And to be frank, a lot of this is to be blamed on the writing and plot of New Blood; ultimately if it's needed for the story it's going to happen. But, from a Universe standpoint the UNSC did everything right, and this was just an unfortunate but relatively isolated slip-through-the-cracks.)
EvilKeny28 wrote:
(And to be frank, a lot of this is to be blamed on the writing and plot of New Blood; ultimately if it's needed for the story it's going to happen. But, from a Universe standpoint the UNSC did everything right, and this was just an unfortunate but relatively isolated slip-through-the-cracks.)
It does though, it shows Halsey is a perfectionist. In her notes she writes that a big problem she wanted to solve was the Insurrectionist sympathisers that had started increasing in ORION. That coupled with malleable bodies and superior genetics is what made the children the obvious candidates. The only limitation at the time was that the augmentations would kill half of the subjects. Halsey is an individual that prises quality over quantity and would have had followed this doctrine if she had been in charge of the Spartan 4 program.
Look I'm not saying your point about Halsey being salty is wrong, I just think its not the whole reason.

I always found the Carrow thing weird. Which would detonating the NOVA be so scarring to Grey Team especially with all the Covenant have done in the war. That said by the end of the novel all is well again. I will admit that Grey and Black Team do/did have negative traits for a Spartan, but they are also considered oddballs and not a good indicator of the average S2.

I took a look and they are indeed basic recruits:
"Avery knew the colonial militia wasn't the marines, but it was difficult for him to lower his expectations for his recruits' performance. About half of them were members of Harvest's law enforcement and other emergency services, so they were at least mentally prepared for the rigors of basic training. But these men were older as well (some in their late forties or early fifties), and they weren't all in the best of shape. Things weren't much better with the younger recruits like Jenkins. Most of them had grown up on farms, but because Harvest's JOTUNs did all the hard manual labor, they were just as physically unprepared as their elders to learn the strenuous craft of soldiery."
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" Colonial Militia Training, one of the UNSC's more controversial activities. Officially, CMT was all about helping the locals help themselves—training colonists to deal with natural disasters and basic internal security so the marines didn't have to keep too many boots on the ground. Unofficially, it was designed to create paramilitary antiInsurrectionist forces"
So yeah, they are recruits currently undergoing basic training under Johnson.

I don't recalling him being particularly abrasive, at least not more than your average drill sergeant. I think I need to re-read the novel to get a better idea, however I do recall that he had to train these recruits in a short amount of time to deal with a threat and them being lower than his standards, as well as Healy's clowning around, was causing him a lot of stress and frustration.

Fair enough.
(I completely agree)
EvilKeny28 wrote:
In her notes she writes that a big problem she wanted to solve was the Insurrectionist sympathisers that had started increasing in ORION.
I actually don't remember that bit; what's the page or date in her journal?

I do completely agree that Halsey is a perfectionist. However I strongly think that she'd be a lot more accepting of the Spartan IV's - even as they are - if she was the one who developed it. The better technology is something that wouldn't be realized in full until it was refined and developed on; keep in mind there's 27 years between the programs. Halsey even disapproved of the Spartan III's, knowing nothing about them except for that they weren't hers.

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I always found the Carrow thing weird. Which would detonating the NOVA be so scarring to Grey Team especially with all the Covenant have done in the war.
You're thinking Glyke. I remember it was talked about in the book, and I think it was that they - three people - committed global genocide. They voted on it, sure, but they still became no better than the Covenant.

(Carrow is the joint-species world where the Sharkoi was released)

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I took a look and they are indeed basic recruits:
Ah, I stand corrected then. It has been a long while since I've read Contact Harvest.

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I don't recalling him being particularly abrasive, at least not more than your average drill sergeant.
But see that's just it; Palmer acts pretty much like any other Commanding Officer. Better than many drill sergeants. The Spartan IV's act like the Marines and ODST that they were sourced from, even in past Halo games. I understand, but I don't get, the argument that the Spartan IV's behavior is what invalidates them as "Spartans", when it's a lot more than their attitude.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
But see that's just it; Palmer acts pretty much like any other Commanding Officer. Better than many drill sergeants. The Spartan IV's act like the Marines and ODST that they were sourced from, even in past Halo games. I understand, but I don't get, the argument that the Spartan IV's behavior is what invalidates them as "Spartans", when it's a lot more than their attitude.
I don't actually know the page number as my copy of the Journal is a collection of images from Internet but its part of the Feb 15 2511 entry. Here she exposes the problems with ORION and proposes solutions to these issues:
1) ORION candidates were too old to undergo extensive genetic augmentation which causes genetic fragmentation and degeneration within several members. Thus she proposed that the next generation must be composed from prepubescent individuals with more malleable and robust DNA.
2) ORION genetic screening was inadequate.
3) Many ORION candidates exhibited post traumatic stress or repressed insurgent sympathies which for the latter caused some to refuse to participate in the military post-augmentation. Her solution was that a certain degree of indoctrination was required in the form of a lifelong training to generate soldiers who not only understand by embrace their orders.
All this is what led her to the conclusion that children were required for the project.
We can only guess at what a Spartan 4 program under Halsey would have been like, however I doubt it would have been the same due in part to her perfectionism but also due to the fact that some of the issues she had with ORION are somewhat present in the Spartan 4 program. Technology may have advanced to the point that adults can be safely augmented to super human levels they still fall short compared to the Spartan 2s and even the 3s. Another issue mentioned in the Spartan Field Manual is that the enhancements of the Spartan 4s require regular maintenance in order to keep up their performance unlike those of the preceding generations. Also tech advancement works both ways, if the UNSC can take a normal average human and make them into a Spartan 4 imagine what they could do if they tried to create a new version of the Spartan 2s (Ilsa Zane gives an idea of how powerful they could be).

Sorry I meant Glyke.
Yes they pretty much blew up a planet. The mission was issued after Reach had fallen and most Spartan 2s were killed or currently unavailable. For the UNSC, this was the final stretch as the Covenant's arrival on Earth was now unstoppable and so a mission was issued to Grey Team to detonate a NOVA bomb on a Covenant world as both revenge for the billions dead by the Covenant and to show the aliens that they were not beyond reach. Basically it was a spite mission to do as much damage as they could before the UNSC was destroyed.

Fair enough.
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