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Why do people hate Spartan IV's?

OP Imperator Rage

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Just calling it; Archodus' premise is 100% "343 Bad". That's the only logical reason for this degree of irrational, vitriolic hatred of the Spartan IV's, especially the maniacal desire to see them horribly fail.
I lost all respect for her when she tried to assassinate halsey, shes a puppet, not a spartan
Agreed
EvilKeny28 wrote:
I don't actually know the page number as my copy of the Journal is a collection of images from Internet but its part of the Feb 15 2511 entry. Here she exposes the problems with ORION and proposes solutions to these issues:
1) ORION candidates were too old to undergo extensive genetic augmentation which causes genetic fragmentation and degeneration within several members. Thus she proposed that the next generation must be composed from prepubescent individuals with more malleable and robust DNA.
2) ORION genetic screening was inadequate.
3) Many ORION candidates exhibited post traumatic stress or repressed insurgent sympathies which for the latter caused some to refuse to participate in the military post-augmentation. Her solution was that a certain degree of indoctrination was required in the form of a lifelong training to generate soldiers who not only understand by embrace their orders.
All this is what led her to the conclusion that children were required for the project.
I've no arguments that those are her justifications for using children for the Spartan II project. It's what they knew at the time. What sticks out to me is Halsey continuing to exceed what is known with her experiments in Smart AI and brain cloning, which lead to Cortana. Halsey is ultimately a scientist, albeit a very egotistical one, and this is why I think she's jaded that she wasn't the one to pioneer the Spartan IV's. It's not because they weren't made from children - that wasn't the only way, and a scientist would know this - it's that she wasn't the one to develop safe genetic augmentation for adults, and worse because the Spartan IV program is built off the Spartan III program which used her studies and research. The IV's are "hers", but stolen. If that makes sense.

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Technology may have advanced to the point that adults can be safely augmented to super human levels they still fall short compared to the Spartan 2s and even the 3s. Another issue mentioned in the Spartan Field Manual is that the enhancements of the Spartan 4s require regular maintenance in order to keep up their performance unlike those of the preceding generations.
Not quite unlike the previous generations. The Spartan III's had to be regularly medicated to keep effect psychosis from growing out of hand. I can't think of any downsides that the Spartan II's had, aside from the ethical implications of course.

With Ilsa Zane, she was a result of the Spartan IV program, and is probably the exact reason that they're "scaled down" from the Spartan II's. Disable the tech that puts them on-par (if they go rogue) and they're easier to handle. If there is ever a Spartan V program, I would imagine it would be like Zane, but without the psychosis.
EvilKeny28 wrote:
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"Not quite unlike the previous generations. The Spartan III's had to be regularly medicated to keep effect psychosis from growing out of hand. I can't think of any downsides that the Spartan II's had, aside from the ethical implications of course."
Correction: only the Gammas required anti-psychosis medication.
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Correction: only the Gammas required anti-psychosis medication.
Still Spartan III's, aren't they? If you can over-generalize an entire 500+ Spartan IV's over the perceived behaviors of two or three, well then...

To be perfectly fair: I feel largely the same way about the other Spartan-generations and of Humanity in-general.
Slick back-pedal! Also really pessimistic, anti-plot, and what are you trying to prove here? Pizza cutter post.

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I'm tired of seeing Humans win all the damn time, and this jadedness just so happens to be doubled in regard to the IVs. Specifically because they never seem to lose, where the 2s and 3s have suffered some kind of crippling defeat.
1. Despite the decades long war and near-extinction sure. Yeah, total gold medals all around. Totally wasn't also the Sangheili that pulled the UNSC out of the fire with the Covenant and finally broke them both times. What a juggernaut Humanity is.
2. Blatantly ignoring the many many many loses that the Spartan IV's had. The various worlds. Betrayals. Several moments on Requiem. Millions of settlements due to the Created. New Phoenix.
3. Name these "crippling" defeats that so satisfy your Edgelord with the 2's and 3's, and contradict your "feeling the same" about the other Spartan generations.

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You have a really bad habit of putting words in my mouth, and I don't think I appreciate it.
I've assumed on your position exactly once (you have yet to really prove it wrong), and did so without ever putting words in your mouth. Not really enough to indicate a "really bad habit" at putting words in your mouth - you who I have not interacted with before here. Drama much?
Correction: only the Gammas required anti-psychosis medication.
Still Spartan III's, aren't they? If you can over-generalize an entire 500+ Spartan IV's over the perceived behaviors of two or three, well then...

To be perfectly fair: I feel largely the same way about the other Spartan-generations and of Humanity in-general.
Slick back-pedal! Also really pessimistic, anti-plot, and what are you trying to prove here? Pizza cutter post.

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I'm tired of seeing Humans win all the damn time, and this jadedness just so happens to be doubled in regard to the IVs. Specifically because they never seem to lose, where the 2s and 3s have suffered some kind of crippling defeat.
1. Despite the decades long war and near-extinction sure. Yeah, total gold medals all around. Totally wasn't also the Sangheili that pulled the UNSC out of the fire with the Covenant and finally broke them both times. What a juggernaut Humanity is.
2. Blatantly ignoring the many many many loses that the Spartan IV's had. The various worlds. Betrayals. Several moments on Requiem. Millions of settlements due to the Created. New Phoenix.
3. Name these "crippling" defeats that so satisfy your Edgelord with the 2's and 3's, and contradict your "feeling the same" about the other Spartan generations.

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You have a really bad habit of putting words in my mouth, and I don't think I appreciate it.
I've assumed on your position exactly once (you have yet to really prove it wrong), and did so without ever putting words in your mouth. Not really enough to indicate a "really bad habit" at putting words in your mouth - you who I have not interacted with before here. Drama much?
I mentioned in my original post that the 2s and 3s are overpowered. It's not a back-pedal, tough guy.

1) All that we are ever shown in the books and games is humans kick -Yoink-. Spartans kicking -Yoink-. The 4s kicking -Yoink-. The grand majority of my grievances can be found here: https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/db05ce78845f4120b062c50816008e5d/topics/are-the-covenant-even-scary---rant/95417a4f-f680-4087-8889-69b644687c98/posts
.

2) What losses are you talking about? Name one, prior to the advent of the Created— which I'm not sure even counts, given that that story has barely even started, yet. And I don't mean on an individual level, I mean as a whole— a loss to all Spartan IVs. Show me one.

3) The 2s being rendered damn-near extinct throughout the Covenant War, and even more-so at the battle of Reach— not to mention that all of them were conscripted at the age of six and have manic-depressive issues. The 3s, meanwhile, had an entire third of their numbers completely wiped in OPERATION: Torpedo, another third were given near-crippling psychological issues for life (even if it was done out of a kind of paternal love by kurt-051), and all of them were basically designed to be disposable assets from the start.

You've done it twice, and made the same assumption twice. The only one trying to start drama is you, with your snide, passive-aggressive remark about my and Armada's discussion. As though you have something to gain by him "beating" me which... seems kind of stupid to begin with.
1) All that we are ever shown in the books and games is humans kick -Yoink-. Spartans kicking -Yoink-. The 4s kicking -Yoink-.
Except for Harvest. Reach. Arcadia. Second Base and Green Hills. Biko. Bliss. Madrigal. Jericho VII. Most of the Outer Colonies. 23 billion human lives before October 20th, 2552, and billions more with the invasion of Earth. Constant naval battles in where the destruction of just one Covenant CCS Cruiser takes the toll of five UNSC ships. Both Requiem campaigns. The events of Escalation. Black Team. Events on Carrow.

Need I go on?

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2) What losses are you talking about? Name one, prior to the advent of the Created— which I'm not sure even counts, given that that story has barely even started, yet. And I don't mean on an individual level, I mean as a whole— a loss to all Spartan IVs. Show me one.
See above. Also you're blatantly ignoring New Phoenix. You're ignoring the decades of war that these Spartans - even if they weren't Spartans at the time - went through, and the absolute everything that they lost. Then as Spartans, you're ignoring the infiltration of NCA agents and Insurrectionist sympathizers, many who often did damage to their comrades directly. Four direct assaults on the Infinity. The total loss of the Requiem campaign. Etc.

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3) The 2s being rendered damn-near extinct throughout the Covenant War, and even more-so at the battle of Reach— not to mention that all of them were conscripted at the age of six and have manic-depressive issues.
They do not have manic-depressive issues. Nor were they rendered nearly extinct (not like all of humanity was.) Of 75 Spartan II's - and not counting those that killed themselves prior to the Covenant War - only 22 are KIA. That's only 29%. Of that 22, only 15 are Confirmed KIA; 20%. So no, they were not rendered "damn-near extinct".

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The 3s, meanwhile, had an entire third of their numbers completely wiped in OPERATION: Torpedo
As was their entire purpose. You can't make a sob-story from designed-as-intended Suicide Soldiers.
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Except for Harvest. Reach. Arcadia. Second Base and Green Hills. Biko. Bliss. Madrigal. Jericho VII. Most of the Outer Colonies. 23 billion human lives before October 20th, 2552, and billions more with the invasion of Earth. Constant naval battles in where the destruction of just one Covenant CCS Cruiser takes the toll of five UNSC ships. Both Requiem campaigns. The events of Escalation. Black Team. Events on Carrow.
If you looked at the link I provided, you'd realize why none of that persuades me.
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See above. Also you're blatantly ignoring New Phoenix. You're ignoring the decades of war that these Spartans - even if they weren't Spartans at the time - went through, and the absolute everything that they lost. Then as Spartans, you're ignoring the infiltration of NCA agents and Insurrectionist sympathizers, many who often did damage to their comrades directly. Four direct assaults on the Infinity. The total loss of the Requiem campaign. Etc.
That wasn't really a loss specifically to the Spartan IVs— more-so for the whole of Earth and the UNSC. The IVs couldn't have prevented New Phoenix's destruction, so it wasn't really their failure or their loss.
Again, what exactly have they lost that almost every other human being already hasn't? You're just proving that the IVs are like everyone else— and hyping up their years spent in the military in a manner not dissimilar to my own aggrandizement of the 2s and 3s.
Those assaults on Infinity were repelled and I don't think you know what a "loss" is, nor what I meant by a loss specifically to the Spartan-IVs.
Since when was Requiem a failure? What exactly did the 4s lose, there? I didn't see any of them lamenting anything about it. Nor have we really seen any of them even beating themselves up over... failing at what, again? The entirety of Spartan Ops, and by extension, the Janus Key arc of Escalation, ended up being a complete dud, so... you're going to have to jog my memory.
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They do not have manic-depressive issues. Nor were they rendered nearly extinct (not like all of humanity was.) Of 75 Spartan II's - and not counting those that killed themselves prior to the Covenant War - only 22 are KIA. That's only 29%. Of that 22, only 15 are Confirmed KIA; 20%. So no, they were not rendered "damn-near extinct".
The interrogator at the beginning of Halo 4 literally outlines the mental issues that the 2s have to deal, as well as expressing the concern that the Chief himself was "broken".

Also, you shouldn't have brought up Spartan 2s. I happen to have a comprehensive list of every Spartan and their statuses. Only 15 Spartan 2s are alive and in active duty as of the end of Halo 3. 16 died in combat against the Covenant and 15 are legitimately missing-in-action/unaccounted-for (they actually went completely missing and/or we haven't heard mention of them). On record, only one Spartan 2 has ever committed suicide, and that was barely before the war started. And by the way, at least two-thirds of those that are missing-in-action are presumed dead (including James, Vinh, and Isaac). So, sixteen are confirmed to have died against the Covenant, and potentially fifteen more have, also— with at least six of them all but presumed to have met the same fate.
And of course: this all lead to the disaster that was Operation: Red Flag, to the point that John was (for a matter of months) believed to be the last of his kind, at least by troops in active-duty. So, yeah... nearly extinct, at least in theory. That counts as a loss.
Losing over half your numbers and potentially being reduced to less than twenty counts, I think.
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As was their entire purpose. You can't make a sob-story from designed-as-intended Suicide Soldiers.
You say that as though it proves me wrong, but if anything, that just helps prove my point. I even said that the 3s were designed for disposability— which only further goes to show that they have more pathos than the IVs. And I like how you completely ignored the Gammas being given psychotic issues, even though you were plenty happy to bring it up with someone else, beforehand.

Also... really? You sound as dismissive of the 3s as I am of the 4s! Hypocrite, much?

Yeah, the Spartan-IVs aren't doomed to fail and given false hope like the 3s were! Bully for them, right?! If anything, they're the UNSC's new, favorite squeeze— the beneficiaries of the UEG being their proverbial sugar-daddy. With all the fancy toys and their big, untouchable mobile-home, and their place in the lime-light as the UNSC's propaganda material.

[SARCASM] Yeah... I just feel so sorry for them. What pathos they have. Gee, I never looked at them with clear eyes until I talked it over with you and Armada. Oh, boy. I'm so overwhelmed with pity and admiration for the Spartan-IVs, who are ostensibly living out their and the dream of almost every young child by mimicking the legendary Master Chief— the IVs, who managed to survive the Covenant War (just like an uncountable number of civilians and other military personnel) where their many comrades did not. Oh, wow... the sorrow. It is oh so terribly convincing. I shall henceforth disregard everything about the 2s and 3s and ORION soldiers in place of fawning over the IVs... because reasons... [SARCASM]

You know, I want to like the 4s, as a concept. It's not like I enjoy waiting around to see if they fail. I'd love to be able to just... turn my brain off and clap my hands just because I see a person with a suit of MJOLNIR on-screen. I wish it were that simple. If I knew how to adequately explain it without having to point to this ( https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/db05ce78845f4120b062c50816008e5d/topics/are-the-covenant-even-scary---rant/95417a4f-f680-4087-8889-69b644687c98/posts), I would. But, evidently, that's just not going to happen. I still don't understand the motivations of anyone I've gotten into a tizzy with, here. And I don't think I'll ever understand why my opinion about the 4s is, apparently, so unacceptable.

And by the way: I like Vale, Thorne, and Tanaka as people. I don't hate every Spartan-IV simply because they're a Spartan-IV. It just so happens to be the case that I like Vale, Thorne, and Tanaka in spite of them being 4s. And even then... it wasn't that great a hurdle to overcome, anyway.
Because they do have updated armor and sometimes don’t look as cool as the older models they are very arrogant and ignorant and makes them very unsafe and at sometimes not fit for combat but some are very skillful in battle but most of them aren’t very great and are sometimes at rookie or just guard status for most things in a way
DJ 2354 wrote:
Because they do have updated armor and sometimes don’t look as cool as the older models they are very arrogant and ignorant and makes them very unsafe and at sometimes not fit for combat but some are very skillful in battle but most of them aren’t very great and are sometimes at rookie or just guard status for most things in a way
Well... That's a mess.

Archodus I'll get to your... gripes after work.
DJ 2354 wrote:
Because they do have updated armor and sometimes don’t look as cool as the older models they are very arrogant and ignorant and makes them very unsafe and at sometimes not fit for combat but some are very skillful in battle but most of them aren’t very great and are sometimes at rookie or just guard status for most things in a way
Well... That's a mess.Archodus I'll get to your... gripes after work.
He posted in 11 different topics in a row, all of them are equally painful to look at.
If you looked at the link I provided, you'd realize why none of that persuades me.
I don't really have to. Your rant about vehemently wanting Humanity to tragically and epically fail speaks volumes of your extreme position.

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That wasn't really a loss specifically to the Spartan IVs
A ridiculous qualifier. No loss has ever been a loss specifically to any one class of Spartans. You're just shifting the goalposts to make your point - whatever ridiculous soapbox that might be.

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Since when was Requiem a failure?
Since then entire bloody planet was thrown into the sun, and the Didact and Jul made the UNSC look like absolute fools.

And the problem you're going to run into here, since you're all "What did the 4's lose!?" is that moreso than any other Spartan class, the Spartan IV's are integrated fully into the UNSC as their own branch, rather than a sub-set of Naval Special Warfare. Any military engagement post-2552, and thus any military loss, is a Spartan IV loss, as they are a mainline fighting force now. And I know, I know, "they're too generic and not super-special stolen children". Yeah, well, progress of Humanity.

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The entirety of Spartan Ops, and by extension, the Janus Key arc of Escalation, ended up being a complete dud, so... you're going to have to jog my memory.
Evidently, as you're not paying attention to it.

The Requiem Campaign was an effort by the UNSC to establish further research outposts on prominent Forerunner artifacts and locations. An ongoing galactic campaign to establish a stronger foothold over the Insurrection, the Covenant, and any fringe combatants that could pose a threat to the UEG. With the loss of Requiem, a very significant Forerunner site - the prison of the Ur-Didact and the resting place of the Librarian's imprint - was lost to the UNSC.

The Janus Key could have given then UNSC access and cataloge of every single Forerunner artifact in the entire galaxy. Could have, had it not been lost to them. Now held by the AI custodian of the Absolute Record, it is currently out of reach entirely.

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The interrogator at the beginning of Halo 4 literally outlines the mental issues that the 2s have to deal, as well as expressing the concern that the Chief himself was "broken".
The interrogator (who's motives are unknown) says in no verrifiable manner that the Spartans routinely showed mildly sociopathic tendencies (meaning anti-social behavior with the inability to understand other's emotions) and difficulty with socialization. He basically said they're more anti-social than other soldiers, and the "sociopathic" tendencies could very well be nothing more than passively massacreing through a field of Grunts and Jackals. Halsey is quick to correct him that the records show efficient behavior in hazardous situations.

Nowhere is manic-depression ever mentioned or brought up.

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Also, you shouldn't have brought up Spartan 2s. I happen to have a comprehensive list of every Spartan and their statuses.
Oh nooo a list! Woe is meeee....

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Only 15 Spartan 2s are alive and in active duty as of the end of Halo 3. 16 died in combat against the Covenant and 15 are legitimately missing-in-action/unaccounted-for (they actually went completely missing and/or we haven't heard mention of them). On record, only one Spartan 2 has ever committed suicide, and that was barely before the war started.
Wrong. There are not only 15 Spartan II's active. There are currently 22 confirmed to be alive as of 2558, but there are many that are unknown. They could very well be alive. Currently, there are:
James-005 - MIA.
Jai-006 - Active
Li-008 - Assumed KIA
Naomi-010 - Active
Leon-011 - Active
Kirk-018 - Discharged
Serin-019 - Active: CINCONI
Daisy-023 - KIA
Robert-025 - Active
Riz-028 - Unknown
Joshua-029 - Assumed KIA
Vinh-030 - Assumed KIA
Otto-031 - KIA
Samuel-034 - KIA
Randall-037 - KIA
Isaac-039 - Assumed KIA
Douglas-042 - Active
Will-043 - KIA
Anton-044 - Assumed KIA
Keiichi-047 - MIA
Kurt-051 - KIA
Jorge-052 - KIA
Margaret-053 - KIA
Linda-058 - Active
Malcolm-059 - KIA
Maria-062 - Retired
Sheila-065 - KIA
Soren-066 - Discharged
Solomon-069 - KIA
Cassandra-075 - Discharged
Arthur-079 - KIA
René-081 - Discharged
Fhajad-084 - Discharged
Kelly-087 - Active
Jerome-092 - Active
Grace-093 - KIA
Musa-096 - Active: Commander of Spartan Branch
August-099 Active
Victor-101 - KIA
Ralph-103 - KIA
Fred-104 - Active
Adriana-111 - Active
116 - Unknown
John-117 - Active
118 - Unknown
119 - Unknown
Mike-120 - Active
121 - Unknown
Joseph-122 - Unknown
123 - Unknown
124 - Unknown
Kai-125 - Unknown
Oscar-129 - KIA - suicide
Alice-130 - Active
Vannak-134 - Unknown
Carris-137 - Unknown
Cal-141 - KIA
Roma-143 - KIA
Unidentified Trainee - KIA - Suicide
Unidentified Spartan - KIA
"Beta-Red Actual" - Assumed KIA
"Red-Fifteen" - Assumed KIA

Alive: 22
MIA: 2
KIA (Assumed): 7
KIA (Suicide): 2
KIA: 16
Unknown: 10

There could be as many as 41 Spartan II's alive. MIA is not dead, neither is "Unknown". Strictly speaking, neither is "Assumed KIA", as Kurt was officially listed as KIA, but we know that for a very long time he was not.

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Also... really? You sound as dismissive of the 3s as I am of the 4s! Hypocrite, much?
MmmmNo. Because see, I'm not dismissing them. You're the one that is - for some reason - putting ridiculous qualifiers on what makes for a Spartan, and using these opinions to try and argue - it seems - that the Spartan IV's haven't "earned" being Spartans. It doesn't matter if you like Vale, Thorne and Tanaka. That's what's so "unacceptable"; not that you or anyone dislike the Spartan IV's - I could give a wet fart - but that you try and take it upon yourself, like some haughty Old World judge, to "disqualify" the Spartan IV's as "Not Real Spartans" because of one BS reason or another. Reasons that are frivolous, poorly founded, and steeped in poorly-applied nostalgia. They're not the God Emperor Spartan-117, so they're not good enough.

It's ridiculous. And more often than not, factually wrong.
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I don't really have to. Your rant about vehemently wanting Humanity to tragically and epically fail speaks volumes of your extreme position.
I don't see how it could, but sure, if you want tell yourself that.
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A ridiculous qualifier. No loss has ever been a loss specifically to any one class of Spartans. You're just shifting the goalposts to make your point - whatever ridiculous soapbox that might be.
It's really not, though. You're just being stubborn, friend.
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Since then entire bloody planet was thrown into the sun, and the Didact and Jul made the UNSC look like absolute fools.And the problem you're going to run into here, since you're all "What did the 4's lose!?" is that moreso than any other Spartan class, the Spartan IV's are integrated fully into the UNSC as their own branch, rather than a sub-set of Naval Special Warfare. Any military engagement post-2552, and thus any military loss, is a Spartan IV loss, as they are a mainline fighting force now. And I know, I know, "they're too generic and not super-special stolen children". Yeah, well, progress of Humanity.
Ha! I'm sorry, what? Jul's Covenant? Making the UNSC, and the Spartan-IVs look like fools? Are you actually bloody joking me? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I also can't help but notice that you didn't answer the question. What exactly was lost? Why was Requiem being destroyed such a big loss? You've completely lost me, here. You're alluding to some embarrassing defeat but I legitimately have no clue what you're on about.

Okay, now you're just casting the net too wide. You're telling me that random marines on some random planet getting kidnapped by Kig-Yar slavers is a loss to the Spartan-IVs? Now I know you're just playing favorites and hedging your bets. It's not a loss to ONI if some army soldiers get killed by a Guardian, so why is it that something not directly related to the Spartan-IVs is a loss to Spartan-IVs? That's like saying U.S marines getting killed by an I.E.D in Afghanistan is a "loss" to the Salvation Army, somehow. You're not even making much sense, at this point.
"Progress of humanity", as though that means anything. Sure, bud.
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Evidently, as you're not paying attention to it.The Requiem Campaign was an effort by the UNSC to establish further research outposts on prominent Forerunner artifacts and locations. An ongoing galactic campaign to establish a stronger foothold over the Insurrection, the Covenant, and any fringe combatants that could pose a threat to the UEG. With the loss of Requiem, a very significant Forerunner site - the prison of the Ur-Didact and the resting place of the Librarian's imprint - was lost to the UNSC.The Janus Key could have given then UNSC access and cataloge of every single Forerunner artifact in the entire galaxy. Could have, had it not been lost to them. Now held by the AI custodian of the Absolute Record, it is currently out of reach entirely.
... uh-huh. I see. Shame we never really hear of that in the games and books. Did the 4s get their payrolls shortened or something? Did the UEG dock their 401ks? Did... any significant amount of them die as a result of Requiem? Because, looking at the after-effects, you have fooled me into thinking that no one actually gave a damn about that entire endeavor. Where was all of this information during the actual story? Some random manuel? Outpost?
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Wrong. There are not only 15 Spartan II's active. There are currently 22 confirmed to be alive as of 2558, but there are many that are unknown. They could very well be alive.
Hm. Must have missed that Canon Fodder post. If you read Fall of Reach and First Strike, you'd have a clearer picture of the fates of Vinh, James, and Isaac. Keiichi, NOLA, and NV66 are wildcards— they could have died at any point. 116, 118, 119, 121, 123, and 124 are complete unknowns. Why is it that I have 22 Spartans that are deceased, over all, with 16 of them having died to the Covenant?
Of those 22 that are supposedly alive and well, how many are still Spartans in-active service as Spartans?
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MmmmNo. Because see, I'm not dismissing them. You're the one that is - for some reason - putting ridiculous qualifiers on what makes for a Spartan, and using these opinions to try and argue - it seems - that the Spartan IV's haven't "earned" being Spartans. It doesn't matter if you like Vale, Thorne and Tanaka. That's what's so "unacceptable"; not that you or anyone dislike the Spartan IV's - I could give a wet fart - but that you try and take it upon yourself, like some haughty Old World judge, to "disqualify" the Spartan IV's as "Not Real Spartans" because of one BS reason or another. Reasons that are frivolous, poorly founded, and steeped in poorly-applied nostalgia. They're not the God Emperor Spartan-117, so they're not good enough.It's ridiculous. And more often than not, factually wrong.
You waved off the Spartan-3s as "purpose-built suicide soldiers" in an effort to downplay their story and prove me wrong. I'd say that that's as bad as me waving off the military experience that the 4s have, possibly worse.
I'm not putting qualifiers on what makes a Spartan. My only goal, here, has been to explain why I don't like the Spartan-IVs, especially in comparison to the 2s and 3s. I never said they weren't spartans, I said that I find their journey to being Spartans less compelling, less deep, and less interesting. In my opinion, the 4s haven't quite "earned" the title. They might have earned the armor and the fancy toys, but otherwise, they don't really impress me.

Once again: I never said that they "weren't Spartans", you wet napkin. I compared them to children playing dress-up and I conveyed the fact that I don't see them as especially great successors. Who the Hell is bringing up nostalgia? From my point-of-view, my reasons aren't frivolous or due to nostalgia.

So what are you? The Spartan-IV fan-club leader? You can't seriously be that attached to them. Unless your first introduction to Halo in the first place was 4 or 5 and getting to design your own O.C. Is that why you're so intent on this being the hill you die on? Fanboyism for the 4s? You're getting more emotional than me, at this point. Which I might be able to respect, if you and Armada didn't keep accusing me of being a rabid 343-hater. Am I not allowed to disilke the 4s and be a fan 343 at the same time? Am I not allowed to criticize things that 343 has done?
I'm not allowed to criticize the 4s? I thought this entire Topic was about opinions!
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.
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Good gods, but you're obstinate.

Ha! I'm sorry, what? Jul's Covenant? Making the UNSC, and the Spartan-IVs look like fools? Are you actually bloody joking me? That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
Then clearly you didn't pay attention to Spartan Ops. I suggest you play through it again, and this time pay attention for how much Jul strings the UNSC along. From the artifact acting as an anchor, tying the Infinity to Requiem (and damn near destroying it with the Shield World,) to the Promethean Knight durance revealing the fate of civilians from New Phoenix, the UNSC never really had the upper hand in the Requiem Campaign.

Also I did answer your question. Here, I'll bold it for you, so pay attention to the big letters.

The Requiem Campaign was an effort by the UNSC to establish further research outposts on prominent Forerunner artifacts and locations. An ongoing galactic campaign to establish a stronger foothold over the Insurrection, the Covenant, and any fringe combatants that could pose a threat to the UEG. With the loss of Requiem, a very significant Forerunner site - the prison of the Ur-Didact and the resting place of the Librarian's imprint - was lost to the UNSC.
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Okay, now you're just casting the net too wide. You're telling me that random marines on some random planet getting kidnapped by Kig-Yar slavers is a loss to the Spartan-IVs?
Yeah... no. Remember when you whined about me assuming your position? You're doing that here pretty bad. And all throughout you're putting words in my mouth.

You're demanding of me to provide a "Spartan IV loss" on par with the Spartan II's being abducted as children and... whatever qualifier you use for the S-III's. You asininely refuse to accept their history of tragedy for some reason, and are likewise stuffing more and more cotton into every sensory receptor that you biologically possess so as to not accept their service and being.

But really? It's all unnecessary. In "discussing" (a generous word) this with you, we're humoring you. We're being polite. Give one reason - one STRONG reason - why Tragedy is such a prerequisite experience for soldiers to be Spartans. Because that's the crux of this whole debate; "they didn't suffer, so they're not Spartans". It's a ridiculous gatekeeping victimization standard that has zero basis in logic or reason.

And by "progress of Humanity," I mean that the Spartan program is the destiny of the human race. You hate the Spartan IV's because of their "lack of tragedy", but that's set to be the norm.

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... uh-huh. I see. Shame we never really hear of that in the games and books.
You weren't paying attention to Halo 4 and Spartan Ops at all, were you?

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If you read Fall of Reach and First Strike, you'd have a clearer picture of the fates of Vinh, James, and Isaac.
Yes, I've read them several times. Vinh and Isaac disappeared in the satchel detonation, and though they couldn't be hailed on COM's, this absolutely doesn't confirm they are dead. No body, no confirmation. It could very well be that the Forerunner complex was interfering with their COM's, or they were maintaining silence to avoid detection and got left behind.

James tumbled out into space and couldn't be found. Isn't that odd? Not even a floating corpse. Could be ONI scooped him up for one reason or another because, after all, that's exactly what they did to Kurt.

Keiichi, NOLA, and NV66 are listed as MIA as of 2558. He could have died, but then again he could still be alive. Missing isn't dead. As are the statuses of 116, 118, 119, 121, and 124. Unknown and MIA doesn't mean you get to use them as "Spartans who died".

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You waved off the Spartan-3s as "purpose-built suicide soldiers" in an effort to downplay their story and prove me wrong.
No, I waved off Spartan-III's dying en masse as a tragic backstory akin to the Spartan II's being abducted or a "Loss" akin to Reach. The dead know no losses.

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I'm not putting qualifiers on what makes a Spartan.
Yes you are. And this is clearly evident when you throw out various tragedies and losses as "defining" of the Spartan II's and S-III's, and completely ignore those of the S-IV's as "not good enough". Even here, you say that "the 4's haven't quite 'earned' the title". Your opinion or no, that's putting qualifiers on what makes a Spartan.

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Once again: I never said that they "weren't Spartans", you wet napkin.
Insults really get you nowhere, and with that this will be the last I reply to you. I'm not going down that hole.

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I'm not allowed to criticize the 4s? I thought this entire Topic was about opinions!
Have your opinion, I literally can't stop you. But be prepared to be challenged with both canonical facts and other's opinions. And for the record, to your massive overreaction and outburst of incredulity, I've been with Halo since the beginning. No, Halo 4 was not my first Halo.
I hope they get wiped out in Infinite, then 343 can start again. None of this no rank but still have commanders rubbish, no fully armoured and augmented SIV's acting as secretaries; and some actual discipline please rather than stupid jocks and incompetents being put to the fore; and please credit us with intelligence and stop having them remove their helmets in combat zones.
I have read and re-read my posts on this Thread and the responses I've gotten, and every time that I've gone over it, I am more and more convinced that not a single response to any of what I've said has actually tackled any of my main points. All of my detractors have simply picked at small mistakes I've made, rather than actually engaging my real points.
As such: I'll count this as a win by technicality on my part.
Don't break your arm celebrating your Victory of Ignorance.
Don't break your arm celebrating your Victory of Ignorance.
No, seriously. Look over everything I've said, and then look over everything that others have said to me. Very little of what others say actually goes to any significant length to tackle my actual position.
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