Why do people hate Spartan IV's?

because MuH ClAssIC HaL0

tL Armada wrote:

Arparagus wrote:

I think the thing that really makes them boring though is they remove the mystique from Spartans. They're just regular marines with super powers. Spartans should stand out from the crowd, but now they are the crowd. Superman isn't cool if everyone around him is also Superman.

I think they're more than just that. These individuals have proven to be skilled, resourceful and tenacious enough to earn their recruitment into the program. ONI isn't randomly picking wet-behind-the-ears greenies to become Spartans; they have to prove that they can shoulder the burden of being Humanity's most elite force and protection against any adversary.
I'd also say they very much still stand head and shoulders above everyone else, literally and figuratively. The backgrounds these characters come from wasn't kind to them, and it's the main driving force behind their inception. While they don't have the 'abducted at 6' dark history of previous Spartans, they still had their own issues they had to deal with.

None of that is in the games. I don't read the books and most people don't. All I know about them is that they're everywhere, they don't look cool, and they don't have cool dialogue like the old Marines.
Without any extra outside info, everyone knows right from the start that Master Chief is a big deal. He's so dope that he gets transported around in a freezy tube and has to be thawed out in a steamy intro sequence when the action gets too hot for the regulars.
Spartan IVs just show up out of nowhere and we're supposed to believe that an a-hole like Sarah Palmer is somehow on Chief's level. So much so that the first thing a Spartan IV says to Chief is that he's not tall enough.
Everything about their introduction to the series is just wrong.

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I mean, none of the Spartan generations backgrounds are in the games. Each one requires outside information to know.
They're also predominantly on a single star-ship, that being the Infinity; they're far from "everywhere". They're also no more numerous than what the Spartan-III program produced.

Yeah, exactly. Master Chief is cool because he has no background. He's one big mystery with a gravely voice. You don't need to read anything outside of the game to get it. One of the reasons Halo 5's campaign was so awful was because it assumed you watched dozens of trailers and read some poorly drawn comics. If I have to read a book to understand a movie it's not a good movie.

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Yes, because he's a Spartan. Spartans carry that responsibility of getting the job done where others can't. Really, he's not exclusive in that regard.

But he is. We never see any other Spartans until Reach. ODSTs have a similar cool factor for the same reason. They're below Johnson and Chief, but it's visually apparent that ODSTs are way more hardcore than Marines. These things have to be properly communicated to the player through the game. We playin' games here, not reading 15 books by 10 different writers.

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Spartan IVs just show up out of nowhere [...]
Like Chief, a Spartan-II; and Noble team, Spartan-IIIs? Seems to be the standard to me.
[...]and we're supposed to believe that an a-hole like Sarah Palmer is somehow on Chief's level. So much so that the first thing a Spartan IV says to Chief is that he's not tall enough.

Master Chief gets a dope introduction in every game, and Noble Team is literally introduced as being too cool to deal with insurrectionists. Again, they also stand out from the crowd. Each member of Noble Team is visually distinct.
The biggest problem here is that Spartan IVs are called Spartans but only fill the roles of basic marines. They don't do anything different, and they are too visually similar to the Nerf Marines found in 4 and 5.
Another thing is 4 and 5 are the only games where you play as someone other than the main character in multiplayer. The Spartan IVs do all the same things as Chief in MP but look nowhere near as dope.
Visual design is incredibly important in conveying character.

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1st, where was it implied, at all, that Palmer was on Chief's level? I mean, she's in the same ballpark since she's also a Spartan, but she's not held to the same awe and prestige that he is.
2nd, her quip of his supposed lack of height has a friendly introduction, not some slight meant to cut him down: Chief was highly sensationalized by ONI and she was making comment on that, and a similar comment is said by marines in Halo: CE. People only focus on that comment and conveniently forget the rest of the game where she openly disobeys her CO to arrest Chief and looks on with admiration as Chief strides past her in the end cutscene of the game.

She's called a Spartan. Only Master Chief and Noble have been Spartans up until that point. She acts like a cocky a-hole the whole game and never backs it up with any action. She's literally just there.
The Spartan Ops intro cinematic shows her as the ultra cool leader lady cool guy, which is also never backed up with anything (visually or otherwise).
Again, backstory for Chief that she is commenting on is not present in any of the games. I never knew that ONI told her stories about Chief and why would I? I'm talking about the game and nothing else, expanded fiction has no bearing on the execution of a video game.
Everybody disobeyed Del Rio. She did not stand out in that regard.

Arparagus wrote:

Yeah, exactly. Master Chief is cool because he has no background. He's one big mystery with a gravely voice. You don't need to read anything outside of the game to get it.

Oh, Chief very much has a background. Multiple novels and comics worth. The earlier games wished to keep it simple by acting as though he didn't have a backstory, but it just wasn't the case.

Arparagus wrote:

One of the reasons Halo 5's campaign was so awful was because it assumed you watched dozens of trailers and read some poorly drawn comics. If I have to read a book to understand a movie it's not a good movie.

Halo 5's storytelling was poor because of the structure of the game, not because of reliance on outside media. It's actually worse to go into Halo 5 with outside knowledge, as you'll be confused as to the complete whiplash of story threads completely dropped that were leading up to Halo 5 in outside media.

Arparagus wrote:

But he is. We never see any other Spartans until Reach.

He really is not. He's made out to be special because the focus was on him, but his fellow Spartan-IIs -- if they were aboard Pillar of Autumn at the time -- would have received the same introduction as he. It just so happened that the story took them away from him at that point. His fellow Spartan-IIs were kicking just as much keester elsewhere as Chief has been shown, it's just that they were in the books.

Arparagus wrote:

ODSTs have a similar cool factor for the same reason. They're below Johnson and Chief, but it's visually apparent that ODSTs are way more hardcore than Marines. These things have to be properly communicated to the player through the game. We playin' games here, not reading 15 books by 10 different writers.

And Spartan-IVs clearly demonstrate they're above ODSTs. Their armor is clearly MJOLNIR, they accomplish feats well beyond normal soldiers and are called Spartans. I think that was clearly conveyed to people. No '15 books by 10 authors' needed.

Arparagus wrote:

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Master Chief gets a dope introduction in every game,

This wasn't my point. It was the notion that the Spartan-IVs 'came out of nowhere and are as good as other Spartans'. Every Spartan in the games have come out of nowhere.
And Osiris had a 'dope' intro in Halo 5. If Noble team gets a pass through word of mouth of their exploits, Osiris should get off Scott free with their demonstrable skill.

Arparagus wrote:

and Noble Team is literally introduced as being too cool to deal with insurrectionists.

Only Noble Six. He plopped outta nowhere and can stand with the Chief. I'm not sure why that is perfectly acceptable but Spartan-IVs who are said to be competent and effectual, but not legendary, are a sore spot.

Arparagus wrote:

Again, they also stand out from the crowd. Each member of Noble Team is visually distinct.

So do Osiris, and Majestic, the two main Spartan-IV teams we've seen. They each sport their own armor permutation, and Osiris are even distinctly colored differently.

Arparagus wrote:

The biggest problem here is that Spartan IVs are called Spartans but only fill the roles of basic marines. They don't do anything different, and they are too visually similar to the Nerf Marines found in 4 and 5.

They do much, much more than that. Palmer makes specific mention of it in Spartan Ops with Crimson having to do what the marines were struggling to accomplish. Osiris was lending much needed aide left, right and center in Halo 5 that would be beyond the capabilities of regular soldiers. This isn't even going into the deeper logistics of the program, either.

Arparagus wrote:

Another thing is 4 and 5 are the only games where you play as someone other than the main character in multiplayer. The Spartan IVs do all the same things as Chief in MP but look nowhere near as dope.

You didn't play as Chief in the older MPs; they were generic Spartan-IIs, and Elites. You would have played as a generic Spartan-III in Reach but Bungie added the integration of Noble Six being your MP Spartan. It's really neither here nor there, as this boils down to preference with regards to the armor permutations, which I think looks fine for the characters we've seen. The MP armors are a different beast, honestly.

Arparagus wrote:

Visual design is incredibly important in conveying character.

I think that has been conveyed for each character so far, with Majestic and Osiris each having armor that suits their skill sets.

Arparagus wrote:

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She's called a Spartan. Only Master Chief and Noble have been Spartans up until that point.

Incorrect. Since day one of the franchise, there have been multiple Spartans alive and kicking. At one point, there were hundreds of Spartans being made at the same time. This is all canon, and part of the Halo universe, both during and post-Bungie.

Arparagus wrote:

She acts like a cocky a-hole the whole game and never backs it up with any action. She's literally just there.

Yeah, gonna need some examples here.

Arparagus wrote:

The Spartan Ops intro cinematic shows her as the ultra cool leader lady cool guy, which is also never backed up with anything (visually or otherwise).

She's shown as the rough-and-tumble leader. That's just her personality. She wasn't strutting around going "look at me ya'll. I'm so great!" She was stern with Majestic and generally appreciative of Crimson's work.

Arparagus wrote:

Again, backstory for Chief that she is commenting on is not present in any of the games. I never knew that ONI told her stories about Chief and why would I? I'm talking about the game and nothing else, expanded fiction has no bearing on the execution of a video game.

Actually, the expanded fiction very much played an important role throughout the series. Never wondered how Chief got back to Earth in Halo 2? Never wondered how Johnson made it off the ring in Halo: CE? Never wondered why Chief decided to leave the dreadnought in Halo 3 instead of killing Truth? Never wondered the actual reason the Prophets hated Humanity? Never wondered why Reach was so important to the UNSC? Never wondered why Halsey was so important to keep out of enemy hands that Jun had to leave Noble? Never wondered who, or what, these Spartans were?
All of these questions rely on novels or comics to get the full picture. It applies the exact same to what you've listed. Just about everything you've taken issue with can be explained with a meager jaunt over to Halopedia. Ultimately, Halo's universe is massive, and keeping everything contained and explained within the games is simply too much to ask.

Arparagus wrote:

Everybody disobeyed Del Rio. She did not stand out in that regard.

Doesn't matter if anyone, or everyone, else did it. She was given a direct command and didn't act upon it. That's a major offense, but something she was willing to do because she sided with the Chief. If she was as abrasive and disrespectful of the Chief, as you were claiming, she wouldn't hesitate to "put the Chief in his place", right?

Arparagus wrote:

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Oh my gosh bro, it's like you're not reading a single word I'm writing. I am talking about the games and only the games. You can't use the expanded fiction to counter my arguments about the execution of the games!

I understood what you were saying. What I'm trying to convey to you is that since day one, Halo has been a transmedia franchise. Approaching this topic as 'only the games matter' doesn't hold much weight when Halo has always relied on external lore to expand, explain, and even introduce aspects present in the games. Faulting the games for not fully explaining the Spartan-IVs while ignoring all the other times the previous Spartans weren't explained seems odd to me. It's always been relegated to outside media.

Arparagus wrote:

The Fall of Reach is infamous for being mocked by the original Halo team (not out of disgust or anything, but they weren't fans).

Incorrect; Jason Jones wasn't a fan. The same Jason Jones who wanted Cortana to be a pure clear-cut villain in Halo: CE, Miranda to betray and try to kill the Chief in Halo 2, and was spotty and absent more often than not throughout Halo 2 - 3.

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So, by this notion, please tell me, from the games themselves:

1. How Chief made it back to Earth in the beginning of Halo 2
2. How Johnson went from looking like a delicious meal for the Flood in CE to being with Chief in Halo 2
3. Why Chief went from "finishing the fight" aboard the dreadnought with Truth in Halo 2 to deciding to jump to Earth in Halo 3
4. How Johnson, Miranda, and Arbiter made it back to Earth so fast they found Chief shortly after his jump
5. Why Reach was so important to the UNSC and why its fall was so tragic
6. Why Halsey was so important to keep out of enemy hands that Carter ordered Jun to remain with her

Whole lotta context between (or in Reach's case, for) the games to just be overlooked, yet somehow it wasn't until the new games came along that outside media was required. Can't say I buy that one bit.

1. He was in a spaceship at the end of CE. For all we know there were already more UNSC on the way to pick him up, and he's in his own spaceship (background about it's capabilities is not needed. It's a spaceship in a sci-fi game).
2. The legendary ending is just a gag, and Johnson was literally just a goofy background marine at the time. They even poke fun at it in Halo 2. It doesn't actually matter.
3. He's trapped on a ship with enemy forces. There's a bazillion reasons he would have needed to jump out. Also would have been pretty lame to start the game with the climax.
4. The amount of time between events is not specified. They're with the Arbiter and the Shipmaster. All they had to do was jump to Earth on their cruiser.
5. It's constantly referenced as the last big battle UNSC had with the Covenant. It's importance is implied. They don't need to include a history book with the game. Lord Hood in Halo 2 talking about the fleet above Earth: "The fleet that attacked Reach was 50 times this size." There's like hundreds of ships outside the window. Reach's military importance established in one sentence.
6. She's a military big wig that works for the Space Pentagon. You don't not protect your higher ups. Also she's the big Forerunner researcher. There were 4 games preceding this.

All this stuff is background information. None of it is relevant to the plot.

i like all of the different spartan gens and i have no idea why so many people hate the new desighns (i prefer having both desighns of everything)

I personally dislike Spartan IV's cause they take away from the legendary persona of the Spartans. They aren't as fast or as strong as the Spartan II's or III's, and they are being mass produced, which removes the gameplay element of fighting alongside marines who aren't as good as you. Soon there won't be any marines left to fight beside. (Probably not true, but whatever.) Also the Spartan IV program is making ODSTs obsolete, which I DO NOT appreciate.

I think Spartan IVs while making sense in ONI's idea to use willing people is kind of silly while ODSTs are suppose to fill that role normally. I know Buck becomes a Spartan IV but we had a whole game about ODSTs and how cool they were and before Spartans were of frequent use on the front lines ODSTs were used. This beefs up what ODSTs kind of were but just makes them beefed up liabilities. Spartan 1/2/3 were all cool due to their questionable child soldier upbringings, extremely low and dangerous survival rates for 1 and 2s, and the low budget but expend ability of 3s. The 4s seem like stronger fodder that I would've been more than happy to see more human ODSTs fill because I really like their design. IVs armor designs are pretty ugly for the most part and I feel like they could seemingly just get reworked into power suited up rebels (if this is true id be really upset).