because MuH ClAssIC HaL0
Why do people hate Spartan IV's?
OP Darth Emhyr
None of that is in the games. I don't read the books and most people don't. All I know about them is that they're everywhere, they don't look cool, and they don't have cool dialogue like the old Marines.tL Armada wrote:I think they're more than just that. These individuals have proven to be skilled, resourceful and tenacious enough to earn their recruitment into the program. ONI isn't randomly picking wet-behind-the-ears greenies to become Spartans; they have to prove that they can shoulder the burden of being Humanity's most elite force and protection against any adversary.
I'd also say they very much still stand head and shoulders above everyone else, literally and figuratively. The backgrounds these characters come from wasn't kind to them, and it's the main driving force behind their inception. While they don't have the 'abducted at 6' dark history of previous Spartans, they still had their own issues they had to deal with.
I mean, none of the Spartan generations backgrounds are in the games. Each one requires outside information to know.
Yes, because he's a Spartan. Spartans carry that responsibility of getting the job done where others can't. Really, he's not exclusive in that regard.
Like Chief, a Spartan-II; and Noble team, Spartan-IIIs? Seems to be the standard to me.
1st, where was it implied, at all, that Palmer was on Chief's level? I mean, she's in the same ballpark since she's also a Spartan, but she's not held to the same awe and prestige that he is.
Yeah, exactly. Master Chief is cool because he has no background. He's one big mystery with a gravely voice. You don't need to read anything outside of the game to get it. One of the reasons Halo 5's campaign was so awful was because it assumed you watched dozens of trailers and read some poorly drawn comics. If I have to read a book to understand a movie it's not a good movie.Quote:I mean, none of the Spartan generations backgrounds are in the games. Each one requires outside information to know.
They're also predominantly on a single star-ship, that being the Infinity; they're far from "everywhere". They're also no more numerous than what the Spartan-III program produced.
But he is. We never see any other Spartans until Reach. ODSTs have a similar cool factor for the same reason. They're below Johnson and Chief, but it's visually apparent that ODSTs are way more hardcore than Marines. These things have to be properly communicated to the player through the game. We playin' games here, not reading 15 books by 10 different writers.Quote:Yes, because he's a Spartan. Spartans carry that responsibility of getting the job done where others can't. Really, he's not exclusive in that regard.
Master Chief gets a dope introduction in every game, and Noble Team is literally introduced as being too cool to deal with insurrectionists. Again, they also stand out from the crowd. Each member of Noble Team is visually distinct.Quote:Spartan IVs just show up out of nowhere [...]
Like Chief, a Spartan-II; and Noble team, Spartan-IIIs? Seems to be the standard to me.
[...]and we're supposed to believe that an a-hole like Sarah Palmer is somehow on Chief's level. So much so that the first thing a Spartan IV says to Chief is that he's not tall enough.
She's called a Spartan. Only Master Chief and Noble have been Spartans up until that point. She acts like a cocky a-hole the whole game and never backs it up with any action. She's literally just there.Quote:1st, where was it implied, at all, that Palmer was on Chief's level? I mean, she's in the same ballpark since she's also a Spartan, but she's not held to the same awe and prestige that he is.
2nd, her quip of his supposed lack of height has a friendly introduction, not some slight meant to cut him down: Chief was highly sensationalized by ONI and she was making comment on that, and a similar comment is said by marines in Halo: CE. People only focus on that comment and conveniently forget the rest of the game where she openly disobeys her CO to arrest Chief and looks on with admiration as Chief strides past her in the end cutscene of the game.
Oh, Chief very much has a background. Multiple novels and comics worth. The earlier games wished to keep it simple by acting as though he didn't have a backstory, but it just wasn't the case.
Halo 5's storytelling was poor because of the structure of the game, not because of reliance on outside media. It's actually worse to go into Halo 5 with outside knowledge, as you'll be confused as to the complete whiplash of story threads completely dropped that were leading up to Halo 5 in outside media.
He really is not. He's made out to be special because the focus was on him, but his fellow Spartan-IIs -- if they were aboard Pillar of Autumn at the time -- would have received the same introduction as he. It just so happened that the story took them away from him at that point. His fellow Spartan-IIs were kicking just as much keester elsewhere as Chief has been shown, it's just that they were in the books.
And Spartan-IVs clearly demonstrate they're above ODSTs. Their armor is clearly MJOLNIR, they accomplish feats well beyond normal soldiers and are called Spartans. I think that was clearly conveyed to people. No '15 books by 10 authors' needed.
This wasn't my point. It was the notion that the Spartan-IVs 'came out of nowhere and are as good as other Spartans'. Every Spartan in the games have come out of nowhere.Master Chief gets a dope introduction in every game,Quote:
Only Noble Six. He plopped outta nowhere and can stand with the Chief. I'm not sure why that is perfectly acceptable but Spartan-IVs who are said to be competent and effectual, but not legendary, are a sore spot.
So do Osiris, and Majestic, the two main Spartan-IV teams we've seen. They each sport their own armor permutation, and Osiris are even distinctly colored differently.
They do much, much more than that. Palmer makes specific mention of it in Spartan Ops with Crimson having to do what the marines were struggling to accomplish. Osiris was lending much needed aide left, right and center in Halo 5 that would be beyond the capabilities of regular soldiers. This isn't even going into the deeper logistics of the program, either.
You didn't play as Chief in the older MPs; they were generic Spartan-IIs, and Elites. You would have played as a generic Spartan-III in Reach but Bungie added the integration of Noble Six being your MP Spartan. It's really neither here nor there, as this boils down to preference with regards to the armor permutations, which I think looks fine for the characters we've seen. The MP armors are a different beast, honestly.
I think that has been conveyed for each character so far, with Majestic and Osiris each having armor that suits their skill sets.
Incorrect. Since day one of the franchise, there have been multiple Spartans alive and kicking. At one point, there were hundreds of Spartans being made at the same time. This is all canon, and part of the Halo universe, both during and post-Bungie.She's called a Spartan. Only Master Chief and Noble have been Spartans up until that point.Quote:
Yeah, gonna need some examples here.
She's shown as the rough-and-tumble leader. That's just her personality. She wasn't strutting around going "look at me ya'll. I'm so great!" She was stern with Majestic and generally appreciative of Crimson's work.
Actually, the expanded fiction very much played an important role throughout the series. Never wondered how Chief got back to Earth in Halo 2? Never wondered how Johnson made it off the ring in Halo: CE? Never wondered why Chief decided to leave the dreadnought in Halo 3 instead of killing Truth? Never wondered the actual reason the Prophets hated Humanity? Never wondered why Reach was so important to the UNSC? Never wondered why Halsey was so important to keep out of enemy hands that Jun had to leave Noble? Never wondered who, or what, these Spartans were?
Doesn't matter if anyone, or everyone, else did it. She was given a direct command and didn't act upon it. That's a major offense, but something she was willing to do because she sided with the Chief. If she was as abrasive and disrespectful of the Chief, as you were claiming, she wouldn't hesitate to "put the Chief in his place", right?
Oh my gosh bro, it's like you're not reading a single word I'm writing. I am talking about the games and only the games. You can't use the expanded fiction to counter my arguments about the execution of the games!Quote:Oh, Chief very much has a background. Multiple novels and comics worth. The earlier games wished to keep it simple by acting as though he didn't have a backstory, but it just wasn't the case.
I understood what you were saying. What I'm trying to convey to you is that since day one, Halo has been a transmedia franchise. Approaching this topic as 'only the games matter' doesn't hold much weight when Halo has always relied on external lore to expand, explain, and even introduce aspects present in the games. Faulting the games for not fully explaining the Spartan-IVs while ignoring all the other times the previous Spartans weren't explained seems odd to me. It's always been relegated to outside media.Oh my gosh bro, it's like you're not reading a single word I'm writing. I am talking about the games and only the games. You can't use the expanded fiction to counter my arguments about the execution of the games!Quote:
Nearly everything on the planet is transmedia. It's just advertising. The Fall of Reach is infamous for being mocked by the original Halo team (not out of disgust or anything, but they weren't fans).tL Armada wrote:I understood what you were saying. What I'm trying to convey to you is that since day one, Halo has been a transmedia franchise. Approaching this topic as 'only the games matter' doesn't hold much weight when Halo has always relied on external lore to expand, explain, and even introduce aspects present in the games. Faulting the games for not fully explaining the Spartan-IVs while ignoring all the other times the previous Spartans weren't explained seems odd to me. It's always been relegated to outside media.Oh my gosh bro, it's like you're not reading a single word I'm writing. I am talking about the games and only the games. You can't use the expanded fiction to counter my arguments about the execution of the games!Quote:
Incorrect; Jason Jones wasn't a fan. The same Jason Jones who wanted Cortana to be a pure clear-cut villain in Halo: CE, Miranda to betray and try to kill the Chief in Halo 2, and was spotty and absent more often than not throughout Halo 2 - 3.
Yet it's pointedly not simply advertising. I've already listed examples that need the books to fill the blanks in. It isn't just a PR move.
Bungie's lack of enthusiasm is known regarding the novels; didn't stop them from relying on them to tell parts of their story or fill in blanks left by the games, though.
So, by this notion, please tell me, from the games themselves:
As I've laid out many times now, they really aren't separate. I will agree with you that the games should stand on their own two feet and provide the player with enough information to understand the plot of the game. I can't say that has really changed with the newer games, though. Even Halo 5, with the mess that it is, still delivers exposition to the player with as much context as previous games.
I mean, Crimson team was kicking butt and taking names throughout Spartan Ops just as effectively as when we plowed through Covenant as Chief. Osiris ran through Covenant in Halo 5, defeated their leader, saved the life of the Arbiter and assisted in the assault on Sunaion, fought through all of Cortana's Promethean forces and saved Chief and Blue team by literally withstanding the punishing blows of a Guardian.
1. He was in a spaceship at the end of CE. For all we know there were already more UNSC on the way to pick him up, and he's in his own spaceship (background about it's capabilities is not needed. It's a spaceship in a sci-fi game).Quote:So, by this notion, please tell me, from the games themselves:
Whole lotta context between (or in Reach's case, for) the games to just be overlooked, yet somehow it wasn't until the new games came along that outside media was required. Can't say I buy that one bit.
- How Chief made it back to Earth in the beginning of Halo 2
- How Johnson went from looking like a delicious meal for the Flood in CE to being with Chief in Halo 2
- Why Chief went from "finishing the fight" aboard the dreadnought with Truth in Halo 2 to deciding to jump to Earth in Halo 3
- How Johnson, Miranda, and Arbiter made it back to Earth so fast they found Chief shortly after his jump
- Why Reach was so important to the UNSC and why its fall was so tragic
- Why Halsey was so important to keep out of enemy hands that Carter ordered Jun to remain with her
He was not on a spaceship; he was on a fighter craft. Something much smaller and without slipspace capabilities. Hand waving away how people get out of perilous situations as 'not being needed' is short sighted.
I wasn't referring to the joke legendary ending; I'm talking about the 343 Guilty Spark mission where the last time we see Johnson, he and the rest of his squad were being overrun by Flood. Everyone else succumbed to the Flood but he's fine? He doesn't get a pass because Bungie didn't originally think he would be a hit and then shoved him into Halo 2 without an explanation... but wait, they did... In both a book and comic!
This is all extremely presumptuous. Chief had no issue infiltrating and gallivanting around High Charity; the pinnacle of the Covenant, and while it was being consumed by the Flood, but a dreadnought with a couple of Brutes is too much? You hand wave this away when it's pretty crucial information to know why he seemingly immediately contradicts his words of fighting and decides to jump. His main goal in Halo 2 (and carrying over into Halo 3) is his seeking to eliminate the Prophets. Why he decides against moving against one when it's within his grasp is not merely background information, but pretty important.
You are correct it isn't specified, and that is why it's confusing. It appears Johnson and the gang get back to Earth almost immediately, since we see at the end of Halo 2 that the dreadnought is already at Earth while they're still on the Halo ring. It's not when you realize Chief was on the dreadnought for two weeks that it makes sense. Gotta read a comic!
So, for context of Reach, we have to go off of implication and a hyperbolic statement made by someone in another game? The most succinct explanation we're given to Reach is a line from Halsey in a trailer --the same format you condemned 343i for doing-- about it being 'Humanity's fortress among the stars', but that also doesn't tell us much. How is it a fortress? What we see in-game is countryside, an ONI facility, more countryside, a hidden Sabre facility, a city, and finally a shipyard. That doesn't give much assurance of why Reach is 'just too damn important', to use Holland's words. Gotta read a book to see just why Reach falling was disastrous.
She's not a military big wig, she's a civilian contractor that works for ONI. There's also the confusing dialogue from Jorge saying 'he's been hers half his life' and how he's made adjustments to 'her armor'. Pretty big implications that make people go "wait, who is she?"
Since this discussion is diverging more into general lore inclusion/exclusion in the games, I'll bring this back around to the start. The Spartan-IVs have been given as much context as previous Spartans; they're the next wave of Spartans, they can kick butt and take names where standard infantry won't cut it, and we're given no inclination they're any more numerous than previous Spartans. Additional outside sources shed more light on them, just like the other Spartans, but doesn't need explained in-game. I don't see how the mystique has been drained out from their inclusion.
spartan IV's, while in full armor, are canonically almost on par with spartan II's.
this is something I see stated time and time again. but its an ironic statement as there had only been a total of about 500 S-IV personnel (including those who have already died in h4 or in books) at the time of halo 5. compare this to the total 930+ S-III's (this is the minimum estimate as there are way too many unnamed S-III teams and personnel and teams with unstated number of members (these teams only get counted as a +1 or +?, depending on who is known to be on the team (its very frustrating how vague and incomplete S-III lore is)) . its only consisting of all S-III's that are/were active, and is excluding all washouts and failed augmentations). there just seems to be more S-IVs than there actually are as 343 has been incorporating them in quite a lot of stories.
its safe to say that ODSTs are not be rendered obsolete, as there's still more ODSTs than there are spartan in all the generations combined. the obsoletion misconception stems from the fact that the majority of the spartan-IV program was selected from the ODSTs. it just seems like there are now less ODSTs as again there are more stories being written incorporating S-IVs. there also just isn't as many stories focusing on ODSTs than spartans in general, as halo has always been a heavily spartan centered series