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Would you accept decanonization of materials?

OP Rookie Prime

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Noah B225 wrote:
It's the lazy way out; instead of dealing with the mistakes you made, you get away with them by pretending you never made them. It's revisionism (not in the good, critical sense of the word). It's also not a compliment to the writers; it's basically saying, 'yeah, our writers are terrible, and they're way too lazy to fix their own mistakes by writing new canon to correct inconsistencies'.
I don't think it is lazy at all. It's just another way to deal with the mistakes that you made, except that it's a harder one, convincing everyone to go along with the change in the story. I'll agree with just about everything else you said, though. Just not that it's an insult to the writers. Sure, some writers will take it that way, but it's just what it is: 343 Industries looking at what they made, looking at fan reaction, and adjusting their trajectory accordingly.
JNDreher wrote:
Like it or not, Halo 5 fits with the established lore, and the people most opposed to it are mostly the ones who don't bother to read the books, so I really don't think their opinions hold as much weight on the topic of Halo's canon as those who do.
As the third column of people I mention in my third paragraph, I can tell you that it fits only in that it technically doesn't violate what was previously stated, but absolutely violates the spirit of the prior canon in more than a few ways. In my experience, the people who read the books (such as myself) are the ones most affronted by the events of Halo 5, because we expected so much more out of the story than a narrative black hole.
That's not the kind of storytelling which Halo has ever followed, though. Halo has been about discovering and learning more about the truth of a single universe. Things are kept canon so that the consistency allows everything to "matter". Nothing has any weight or meaning when it has no effect on the rest of the story or can be blinked out of existence from the story, not when it's trying to maintain a canon to build upon. It's that weight and meaning, that sense of events truly having an impact because they are permanent and can never be undone, which makes the notion of a fictional story having a canon interesting and engaging. It more closely mirrors real life, it makes us care what happens.

If Halo 5 was declared non-canon, that makes every piece of Halo fiction subject to the same treatment. Does the outcry against Reach's retcons warrant Reach from becoming non-canon? Is Halo: Escalation, nearly as universally hated as Halo 5, going to be non-canon? Is the canon of a story going to depend wholly on audience reaction? Are we going to get polls after every Halo story asking the community whether it was good enough to be a Halo story, before it's allowed to be stamped canon?

I hate Halo 5's story. I despise what it's done to the Halo universe. But the absolute worst thing 343i could possibly do is start calling things non-canon. People wanted the same thing from Halo 4, to strike it from the record and start over. 343i took all that hate for Halo 4's story and gave us Halo 5, for all appearances trying as hard as possible to make H5 as far removed from H4 as possible. Don't ever think it can't get any worse, because it can.

Halo 6 can be better than Halo 5. It can get us back on the road Halo 4 began without pretending Halo 5 never happened.
I suppose my thinking partly involves what is that decanonization would be a choice of great import, and one that isn't done idly. If it helps, strictly speaking 343 has, in a soft way, decanonized material at least once -- the final cinematic of Halo 4. The Didact's narration was deemed non-canon by Catalog, in that roundabout terminology way he has of saying such things. It no longer fit with what Halo 5 was gonna be, so it no longer makes sense to have been said at any point in the timeline.

Please show me where Catalog somehow de-canonized the Didact's epilogue speech in Halo 4, which frankly was one of my favorite parts of the whole game because of the promise it showed. I'm not ready to buy that Catalog can simply dismiss what happened in a released game. The past is written; the metaphorical ink is dry.
I already can't help but think of everything 343 made as being some alternate interpretation of the Halo universe. In a similar manner, I consider the Nylund-verse to be a thing all its own, considering how so many of his original world building details (such as Chief being the one to discover 90% of all Covenant races-- most of them very late into the war, and him being the leader of ALL S-IIs, not just Blue Team) were later retconned, or outright ignored.

Of course, there's plenty of overlap, but after how many revisions 343 has made to the Fall of Reach, god only knows which one they consider canon.
Please show me where Catalog somehow de-canonized the Didact's epilogue speech in Halo 4, which frankly was one of my favorite parts of the whole game because of the promise it showed. I'm not ready to buy that Catalog can simply dismiss what happened in a released game. The past is written; the metaphorical ink is dry.
I don't think it so much decanonized them, as more it realized that in the current writing the speech makes no sense to have occured during any time period.

Originally catalogue tried to state the speech happened back during the forerunner era, but once evidence was provided that that made no sense, it pretty much backtracked into a wordy "I dunno".

I already can't help but think of everything 343 made as being some alternate interpretation of the Halo universe. In a similar manner, I consider the Nylund-verse to be a thing all its own, considering how so many of his original world building details (such as Chief being the one to discover 90% of all Covenant races-- most of them very late into the war, and him being the leader of ALL S-IIs, not just Blue Team) were later retconned, or outright ignored.

Of course, there's plenty of overlap, but after how many revisions 343 has made to the Fall of Reach, god only knows which one they consider canon.
TBH I think the reason for Nylund having chief encounter the first of everything was to help hype up the covenent and provide a keen introduction to the reader. I seem to recall Blue team being pretty impressed by the BR and SMG in First Strike too as if oggling the new game features.

I don't think Chief has ever not been made head of the S-II's, I mean, all the S-II respect for him is also clear in even Karen Travis' stuff. Its just that Chief's main team tends to consist of largely the same people, and is often named blue team. Its what fans have been refering to them as for over a decade as well.
I don't think Chief has ever not been made head of the S-II's, I mean, all the S-II respect for him is also clear in even Karen Travis' stuff. Its just that Chief's main team tends to consist of largely the same people, and is often named blue team. Its what fans have been refering to them as for over a decade as well.
Every time we see Chief in Fall of Reach, he's in command of all living Spartan-IIs-- its just that sometimes, such as when he, Kelly, and Sam boarded the Covenant ship, he can't take everyone with him.

But after First Strike, there's been this emergence of the concept of all the IIs being divided into official fireteam-sized units. Recall that in Fall of Reach, Blue, Red, and Green Team were not really defined units. Blue were just the IIs who were with Chief, while Red and Green were everyone else, and they consisted of whoever Chief wanted them to consist of.

Like, I'm sure if you were to ask 343 now, they'd say that it was a special case, but I believe that Nylund included the Battle of Jericho VII chapters as a sort of introduction to the Spartan routine. They all go in, kick a bunch of -Yoink- with Chief leading them, but ultimately have to pull back when the UNSC inevitably lose the fight in space, dooming the planet. And here, we had Blue, Red, and Green Team in action, with Blue having five members instead of what would become the traditional four.
The most I'd want is for someone to attempt a rewrite of the Kilo-5 books. But even that's a bit much.
Please show me where Catalog somehow de-canonized the Didact's epilogue speech in Halo 4, which frankly was one of my favorite parts of the whole game because of the promise it showed. I'm not ready to buy that Catalog can simply dismiss what happened in a released game. The past is written; the metaphorical ink is dry.
Thought it would be harder to find than it was. Google is our friend!To reiterate, it's not like he said "it's non-canon now." But the quote no longer fits in any point in time, and this seems to be 343's way of addressing that -- confusion in the Domain recordings and whatnot.
No, I wouldn't like that at all
i dont think its a good idea, which is unfortunate because i really would like certain things to be de-canonized. there are so many different mediums - whether its the games, books, comics... each of these has a different author with their own way of how the story should go. Its so hard to get a story to add up when there are so many sources like that. I wish the story would have been all planned out from the get go, i realize not necessarily feasible with a story this big. i was really disappointed with the comic series regarding the janus key, redo that cause that had potential.

Ive heard the greg bear novels were fantastic and i am sure they were written well. (ive only read plot synopses so i do have an understanding) butttt it seems like so many things changed so drastically from those novels that are virtually a complete 180 from the games, and he introduces a lot of conflicting concepts that are really after halo had been well established. I was never a big fan of the primordial, i dont like that the precursors ( a godlike race that facilitates life ) became the flood. Sorry, just dont buy it.

idk man... halo CE was like my bible growing up and i would have liked to see canon still revolve around the original halo CE/ Halo 2 story i.e. humanity was supposed to be the descendants of the forerunners and was changed so we could fight them and put ourselves on the pedestal, quite literally with the mantle. i love how much the halo universe has expanded, i just wish there was more collaboration and planning, better scripting and screenwriting, so that there halo universe has a story that flows well
No; a GOOD writer can retroactively fix most of the mistakes Halo 5 made. Decanonization would just throw away all that work and we would be taking a step-back, forced to pretty much have to wait for new media to re-cover what's already happened. Let's just move on; it's a bump in the road, it's behind us. Let's focus on ensuring that Halo 6 is written well.
Please show me where Catalog somehow de-canonized the Didact's epilogue speech in Halo 4, which frankly was one of my favorite parts of the whole game because of the promise it showed. I'm not ready to buy that Catalog can simply dismiss what happened in a released game. The past is written; the metaphorical ink is dry.
Thought it would be harder to find than it was. Google is our friend!To reiterate, it's not like he said "it's non-canon now." But the quote no longer fits in any point in time, and this seems to be 343's way of addressing that -- confusion in the Domain recordings and whatnot.
Did anyone ever figure out who catalog actually was? And why Catalog hasn't been heard from in so long?
No; a GOOD writer can retroactively fix most of the mistakes Halo 5 made. Decanonization would just throw away all that work and we would be taking a step-back, forced to pretty much have to wait for new media to re-cover what's already happened. Let's just move on; it's a bump in the road, it's behind us. Let's focus on ensuring that Halo 6 is written well.
Pretty much this.

I really didn't like Halo 5, but it would be far worse to retcon it. As mentioned in the first reply in the thread, it sets a dangerous precedent. It's one game, we need to just put it behind us and hope for Halo 6 to deliver.
Don't know if it's been said yet or not, but the games will never be "decanonized". Everything aside from the games is based on the games. Consider Halo 4-5 as removing everything from the Kilo 5 trilogy to be as close to "decanonization" as you'll get.
Don't know if it's been said yet or not, but the games will never be "decanonized". Everything aside from the games is based on the games. Consider Halo 4-5 as removing everything from the Kilo 5 trilogy to be as close to "decanonization" as you'll get.
I've never read it. If it what you say is true, is it worth reading at all? Is the information in it retconned so heavily that it is completely irrelevant to the rest of the Halo universe?
Halo 5 seems pretty... unpopular, as a contribution to the Halo mythos. I don't just mean on here. I mean, like... anywhere I've ever seen someone talk about Halo 5's campaign. They'll say Cortana being evil was dumb, or the new Spartans are dumb, maybe that it's a big tonal shift from Halo 5 -- and in a few peoples' cases, they might spend months, maybe soon years worrying at the many ways in which Halo 5's campaign took what appeared to be a well-assembled complex of characters and events, themes and tones and put it under a big flashing sign that reads "the Created."

So... why not a do-over? Seems like a prime candidate, as much of one as we've ever had. Would you guys be upset if 343 Industries took it upon themselves to make Halo 6 the Halo 4 sequel that people expected? And if they decided they could take something they built and sold as canon and invalidate its authenticity within the canon simply by saying so? Would decanonization weaken the seeming significance of the canon itself?

For the sake of completeness of topic, I'll ask also: do you think it's plausible -- or even likely -- that 343 Industries would do this?
willl never happen
ThirdEye27 wrote:
I've never read it. If it what you say is true, is it worth reading at all? Is the information in it retconned so heavily that it is completely irrelevant to the rest of the Halo universe?
It's worth reading for framework information, nothing more. The writing is medeocre, the characterizations cliche, and some events completely non-canonical.

It hasn't been retconned so much as it has been unwritten. Things introduced and began in it have been reversed through games and lore from Halo 4 to Halo 5. It's my observation and theory that this is why the beginning of the Reclaimer Saga has seemed so rushed and ill-formed, because it's focusing on resolution of plot issues introduced by Traviss. Now that it's all over with, I predict we'll see a greater return to storyline.
ThirdEye27 wrote:
I've never read it. If it what you say is true, is it worth reading at all? Is the information in it retconned so heavily that it is completely irrelevant to the rest of the Halo universe?
It's worth reading for framework information, nothing more. The writing is medeocre, the characterizations cliche, and some events completely non-canonical.

It hasn't been retconned so much as it has been unwritten. Things introduced and began in it have been reversed through games and lore from Halo 4 to Halo 5. It's my observation and theory that this is why the beginning of the Reclaimer Saga has seemed so rushed and ill-formed, because it's focusing on resolution of plot issues introduced by Traviss. Now that it's all over with, I predict we'll see a greater return to storyline.
Sorry if I'm drifting slightly off track, but I'm curious: I read the trilogy and played the games and always saw the former leading to the latter, and don't recall any problematic transition. Do you have any specific examples of things introduced in the trilogy being that were unwritten by the games?
One thing I think is mostly forgotten about is that for all its faults Halo 5s story did some good things for the lore.

  1. History of Meridian
  2. History of the elites
  3. Lore on some of the armours
  4. Lore from the MP maps
  5. Lore from the intel
  6. Lore from the NPCs
Halo 5s main story sucked but all of the side details that are overlooked by many actually have a lot of benefits for the Canon, we loose a lot of cool Canon bits if we just make all of 5 non canon. Not to mention some recent story's from Fractures and Slipspace would now be non Canon as well and some of them story's are actually respected and liked.Personally we would loose a lot more than we would gain, it would be confirmation that 343 don't know what there doing which is something no one here wants to believe.
That would be chaos lol it would be too messy and screw everything up. Just more hate for 343.
Noah B225 wrote:
Sorry if I'm drifting slightly off track, but I'm curious: I read the trilogy and played the games and always saw the former leading to the latter, and don't recall any problematic transition. Do you have any specific examples of things introduced in the trilogy being that were unwritten by the games?
When I say "unwritten", what I more mean is quickly and sometimes unceremoniously resolved. Undone through writing. For example:
  • Halsey is no longer a "war criminal" or a prisoner; the events of Halo 5 have made that pursuit all but irrelevant for now.
  • Jul 'Mdama is dead, and his political war against the Arbiter at a close.
  • ONI is less "let's stoke the embers of war" than in Kilo 5 - political treachery and intrigue have taken a far back seat in the narrative.
  • The Servants of the Abiding Truth are no more, or at least leaderless.
  • The Spartan II's are no longer totally unclassified (this has more been ignored, rather than reversed directly)
And possibly a few more examples that I'm missing.
Noah B225 wrote:
Sorry if I'm drifting slightly off track, but I'm curious: I read the trilogy and played the games and always saw the former leading to the latter, and don't recall any problematic transition. Do you have any specific examples of things introduced in the trilogy being that were unwritten by the games?
When I say "unwritten", what I more mean is quickly and sometimes unceremoniously resolved. Undone through writing. For example:
  • Halsey is no longer a "war criminal" or a prisoner; the events of Halo 5 have made that pursuit all but irrelevant for now.
  • Jul 'Mdama is dead, and his political war against the Arbiter at a close.
  • ONI is less "let's stoke the embers of war" than in Kilo 5 - political treachery and intrigue have taken a far back seat in the narrative.
  • The Servants of the Abiding Truth are no more, or at least leaderless.
  • The Spartan II's are no longer totally unclassified (this has more been ignored, rather than reversed directly)
And possibly a few more examples that I'm missing.
I see, I misunderstood what you meant by 'unwritten'. I totally agree that many plot points were poorly resolved or were left unexploited. Thanks for taking the time to explain what you meant, I appreciate it!
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