Forums / Games / Halo: The Master Chief Collection (PC)

Flight 3: Controller Aim Assist should not go live

OP saw141

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Slickini wrote:
No seriously, I really don't want any changes affecting aim assist. It needs to remain the same as it was 9 years ago simply because it will change the game AND cross platform matches could have some balance issues. If people are really bothered, I am not, by the controller aim assist, then the only way to fix this is to force people to use keyboard and mouse. Simple.

I am certain that if 343i manages to perfect the raw mouse input, making it perfectly responsive and on par with other modern fps games, KBM users can easily beat the controller users.
Wtf? Cross platform matches aren't even confirmed. They simply said it's a possibility down the pipeline.
Besides which, your point is totally irrelevant, since people can and are playing the PC version with a controller right now. Today, and are gaining a distinct adavantage in doing so because controller assists are overtuned.

That's the whole discussion of this thread; have you not even been reading it?!
They can get KB+M input sweet as pie, and it won't change the fact controller users currently have a pretty significant aim hack. When you can miss a sniper shot by 2 freaking head's width and it still somehow hits because of ridiculous assistance, that's broken. It's as simple as that.

I don't get why people overreact. It's like "herp derp, aim asisst is too strong, it needs to go entirely" or "herp derp, leave it as it is". People these days seem to only think extreme options exist...
What the heck happened to the middle ground? You know, maybe them tuning it partially until it feels just right? Shades of grey and all that?
Cool your jets lil zoom... Yeah someone called me like that idk why... Anyways... Cross platform is still a possibility, meaning if they change the aim assist for PC controller users, it will simply make things harder for 343i to bring cross platform capability for everyone due to balance issues. A lot of people, including me, wants to play with Xbox players. So it's not irrelevant at all. I am bringing this to the discussion because I thought changing Aiming assist could worsen the chances of implementing it to the game, and tweaking aim assist could easily create a new problem for 343i in the future.

I have been playing Halo since I was literally 7 years old... what I am a trying to say is I played Halo Reach since launch and spent many many many hours playing it. I now play almost like.. Shroud on PC except I'm a little worse because I don't play as often as him. My point is KBM users should be able to beat the controllers users with ease because of insane aiming precision... if not, because of the ridiculous aim assist then... wait.. I actually did bring you a middle ground solution: don't let anyone use a controller on PC. "Have you not even been reading" my previous reply?

I do have another solution and ok.. 343i could simply tweak aim assist on both platform so it becomes a lot more fairer. But I am just on the fence because Halo 1, 2, 3 and 4 will need to suffer the same changes, meaning everything will need to be remodeled, if cross platform play stays a thing. IF cross play is cancelled, then nevermind, do whatever you want with the tweak, I don't care. Cross play might only be available in Custom games... and I think that's fair enough.
Slickini, given how strong controller assist is right now, each enemy may as well be twice the size in terms of hitbox. That's not "balancing the field". That's blowing out way out of balance.

This idea of creating a fair console to PC competitive environment is not going to work unless 343i tune down the controller assist levels. Significantly. Because if they don't, then most of us keyboard and mouse users are going to just filter out any cross platform games, should the feature be implemented.

Sometimes, a grand idea isn't worth it due to the drawbacks. If 343i are not prepared to address those drawbacks, then it's a bad idea.

This thread should be exploding with concern right now, but alas, too many people on this forum are controller players who want to retain their aim hack advantages, so naturally they stay silent. If 343i don't listen, they'll make fools of themselves by releasing a PC shooter that can only be played competitively with a controller.
Slickini, given how strong controller assist is right now, each enemy may as well be twice the size in terms of hitbox. That's not "balancing the field". That's blowing out way out of balance.

This idea of creating a fair console to PC competitive environment is not going to work unless 343i tune down the controller assist levels. Significantly. Because if they don't, then most of us keyboard and mouse users are going to just filter out any cross platform games, should the feature be implemented.

Sometimes, a grand idea isn't worth it due to the drawbacks. If 343i are not prepared to address those drawbacks, then it's a bad idea.

This thread should be exploding with concern right now, but alas, too many people on this forum are controller players who want to retain their aim hack advantages, so naturally they stay silent. If 343i don't listen, they'll make fools of themselves by releasing a PC shooter that can only be played competitively with a controller.
Maybe if we keep tellin them that the biggest and most popular FPSs on PC ALL have toned town or no aim assist at all for Controllers in Ranked modes at the very least, then they will have to find some kind of compromise. Having your aim being 100% true is honestly one of many that Counter Strike:GO and Quake are still played competitively to this day (despite the latter not being anywhere near as big as it was many years ago).
I definitely agree with OP.

When playing on medium to larger maps, I feel like it is fairly balanced; mouse players can make those easy adjustments on medium to far distant targets and the aim assist helps the controller players to feel like it is fairly balanced.

HOWEVER, on smaller to medium-sized maps, the aim assist on the controllers blows PC players out of the water. I am a top player in a few FPS games on the PC and I am routinely getting decimated by controller players when it comes to playing smaller maps (excluding SWAT or snipers). In those close-quarters battles, PC players have to move their mouse erratically to have a chance at tracking anyone where controller players can rely on the aim assist to keep their crosshair over-top the players. I honestly stopped playing any hardcore this flight because of how unfair it feels; I have only really been playing the 8v8 or Invasion the last few days because I just get frustrated.

I have seen people mention that the aim with a controller feels similar to how it is on the Xbox, but I feel like that is just changing the discussion. We aren't comparing how aiming feels between a controller on the Xbox and on the PC, we are supposed to be comparing how aiming feels between a mouse and a controller on the PC, and even then we have to break it down and compare how the two inputs differ between long-distance shooting and close-distance. There are tons of potential ways to solve this and I don't really see myself playing the game much if this issue isn't addressed.
I'm a console player but it seems like 343 needs to commit to a decision regarding crossplay. They say there are no current plans but then include controller support for PC?

I agree that PC players shouldn't have to think twice about using a different input method than the default PC controls for a PC game.

If the PC variety streamers in the Twitch Rivals on Tuesday use controller it is going to turn off a lot of the potential PC players (same thing happens if they use KBM and get wrecked by controller).

TLDR: if no crossplay-> PC build should not support controller....if crossplay-> 343 needs to balance/reduce aim assist.
I don't want the experience on controller to feel actually awful to use on PC. Mouse is an objectively more accurate and faster method of aiming than a joystick, controllers NEED the aim assist to keep up. I've never destroyed a KB/M player, only kept up with them.
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tsassi wrote:
It is in my interests that my preferred input method is superior to all others. If it is not, I feel disturbed and will complain until it is. If it is, I stay silent for my interests are already being served. Screw everyone else, but lucky for them: I am not a game designer.
A monitor sarcastically mocking discussion on the forum that they moderate, and is made for discussion? 343 really has some weird moderation from what I’ve learned, it does not reflect well.

The majority of PC gamers use MK / B, it does not make sense for a PC game to have a software implementation that TOP TIER players are saying makes a non majority input method superior. KB / M is often cited as objectively superior when it comes to aiming. The whole reason consoles were even given aim assist was because they pale in comparison due to the difficulty of fine movement with joysticks. This is not a console game anymore regardless of it being a port of one. I’ve also adjusted my original opinion and I feel that the aim assist should be EXACTLY the same as it is on consoles, but that inputs shouldn’t play together. Only controllers with controllers, only mice with mice. That way controller users can be happy and the game will retain the features people are used to, but that they won’t have an unfair advantage over KB/M. Also they definitely need to fix the raw input and KB / M delay issues. If people concerned about KB / M becoming dominant due to this thread, like it seems this monitor is; wouldn’t you ALSO not want KB / M players with “superior” inputs dominating controller users? My concern is that even with fixing the KB / M issues, it may not be enough since most of the claims about aim assist say it’s ridiculous. Input based matchmaking is the way to go to retain the games in the states they were in that sense, but allow KB / M users to play on a fair ground. But I don’t know.
It sounds like the aim assist just needs turned down. Halo was built to be a console game played with a controller. That's what made it special was capturing an fps title so well on controller. When someone tries to learn mouse and keyboard it isn't so simple when something has been being learned for so many years. In the original post you brought up overwatch. I've played a decent amount and my friend does college esports with it. We've talked about how McCree players strafe to aim on console, versus pc that struggles to strafe as well, but has better standing aim. It's not just input, it's a playstyle. Some people just want to sit back with a bluetooth controller, use streaming services, or enjoy a higher fps and options. The best answer is to separate the two, but if not possible, then it should not be removed, just turned down. Mouse and controller isn't always better. Playing destiny 2 I've learned some weapons benefit and others don't, some require a different playstyle because of it. Some people play on laptops and don't have a good setup. You can't punish those people who bought the game just because. Mouse and keyboard feel horrid right now, but this isn't the first halo I've felt that way with. If the population is high enough though, just split them up in gamemodes where it matters.
It sounds like the aim assist just needs turned down. Halo was built to be a console game played with a controller. That's what made it special was capturing an fps title so well on controller. When someone tries to learn mouse and keyboard it isn't so simple when something has been being learned for so many years. In the original post you brought up overwatch. I've played a decent amount and my friend does college esports with it. We've talked about how McCree players strafe to aim on console, versus pc that struggles to strafe as well, but has better standing aim. It's not just input, it's a playstyle. Some people just want to sit back with a bluetooth controller, use streaming services, or enjoy a higher fps and options. The best answer is to separate the two, but if not possible, then it should not be removed, just turned down. Mouse and controller isn't always better. Playing destiny 2 I've learned some weapons benefit and others don't, some require a different playstyle because of it. Some people play on laptops and don't have a good setup. You can't punish those people who bought the game just because. Mouse and keyboard feel horrid right now, but this isn't the first halo I've felt that way with. If the population is high enough though, just split them up in gamemodes where it matters.
You’re right that MK / B is not always inherent better. It‘a because of the current raw input and aim assist situation. But the player I cited originally “Kephrii” was actually switching back to his mouse to snipe during this flight. He’d use his controller for every weapon except the sniper because he said he just thought it was easier to do the fine corrections or something. So he was actually having to use BOTH because d the way things are...
saw141 wrote:
tsassi wrote:
It is in my interests that my preferred input method is superior to all others. If it is not, I feel disturbed and will complain until it is. If it is, I stay silent for my interests are already being served. Screw everyone else, but lucky for them: I am not a game designer.
A monitor sarcastically mocking discussion on the forum that they moderate, and is made for discussion? 343 really has some weird moderation from what I’ve learned, it does not reflect well.

The majority of PC gamers use MK / B, it does not make sense for a PC game to have a software implementation that TOP TIER players are saying makes a non majority input method superior. KB / M is often cited as objectively superior when it comes to aiming. The whole reason consoles were even given aim assist was because they pale in comparison due to the difficulty of fine movement with joysticks. This is not a console game anymore regardless of it being a port of one. I’ve also adjusted my original opinion and I feel that the aim assist should be EXACTLY the same as it is on consoles, but that inputs shouldn’t play together. Only controllers with controllers, only mice with mice. That way controller users can be happy and the game will retain the features people are used to, but that they won’t have an unfair advantage over KB/M. Also they definitely need to fix the raw input and KB / M delay issues. If people concerned about KB / M becoming dominant due to this thread, like it seems this monitor is; wouldn’t you ALSO not want KB / M players with “superior” inputs dominating controller users? My concern is that even with fixing the KB / M issues, it may not be enough since most of the claims about aim assist say it’s ridiculous. Input based matchmaking is the way to go to retain the games in the states they were in that sense, but allow KB / M users to play on a fair ground. But I don’t know.
It's long been held that controller users playing Halo on PC (Halos 1 and 2 have been on PC for over a decade WITH the same aim assist that console has.) know that they are putting themselves at a disadvantage. It's only now with this Reach flight that kbm users are claiming to be at a disadvantage. All the aim assist does is barely drag the reticle towards a target that you're pointing at.

Also, splitting the matchmaking by input method would suck a LOT. Firstly that would disable the ability to hotswap between inputs. When I get matched into a game of Team Snipers or SWAT, I drop the controller and switch to KBM so I can click on heads easier. The fact that the dominant majority of PC gamers use KBM would mean that it would be a lot harder to find matches as a controller user. It would split the userbase not even in half but more like 3/4.
MikauAnaki wrote:
saw141 wrote:
tsassi wrote:
It is in my interests that my preferred input method is superior to all others. If it is not, I feel disturbed and will complain until it is. If it is, I stay silent for my interests are already being served. Screw everyone else, but lucky for them: I am not a game designer.
A monitor sarcastically mocking discussion on the forum that they moderate, and is made for discussion? 343 really has some weird moderation from what I’ve learned, it does not reflect well.

The majority of PC gamers use MK / B, it does not make sense for a PC game to have a software implementation that TOP TIER players are saying makes a non majority input method superior. KB / M is often cited as objectively superior when it comes to aiming. The whole reason consoles were even given aim assist was because they pale in comparison due to the difficulty of fine movement with joysticks. This is not a console game anymore regardless of it being a port of one. I’ve also adjusted my original opinion and I feel that the aim assist should be EXACTLY the same as it is on consoles, but that inputs shouldn’t play together. Only controllers with controllers, only mice with mice. That way controller users can be happy and the game will retain the features people are used to, but that they won’t have an unfair advantage over KB/M. Also they definitely need to fix the raw input and KB / M delay issues. If people concerned about KB / M becoming dominant due to this thread, like it seems this monitor is; wouldn’t you ALSO not want KB / M players with “superior” inputs dominating controller users? My concern is that even with fixing the KB / M issues, it may not be enough since most of the claims about aim assist say it’s ridiculous. Input based matchmaking is the way to go to retain the games in the states they were in that sense, but allow KB / M users to play on a fair ground. But I don’t know.
It's long been held that controller users playing Halo on PC (Halos 1 and 2 have been on PC for over a decade WITH the same aim assist that console has.) know that they are putting themselves at a disadvantage. It's only now with this Reach flight that kbm users are claiming to be at a disadvantage. All the aim assist does is barely drag the reticle towards a target that you're pointing at.

Also, splitting the matchmaking by input method would suck a LOT. Firstly that would disable the ability to hotswap between inputs. When I get matched into a game of Team Snipers or SWAT, I drop the controller and switch to KBM so I can click on heads easier. The fact that the dominant majority of PC gamers use KBM would mean that it would be a lot harder to find matches as a controller user. It would split the userbase not even in half but more like 3/4.
Halo CE on PC having aim assist is factually incorrect... it doesn’t even have a built in lag compensator which is frankly the real reason the game is unplayable with a Controller... even in custom edition where some lobbies have an ability to enable “no lead” mode, the game has been out on PC for so long that Controllers just won’t be able to compete...

With Halo 2 vista on the other hand, not only can one still compete with a controller due to the netcode feeling far better than Halo PCs, but it also having far heavier aim assist and incredibly tough to pull off BxR that k&m users pretty much needed macros to consistently pull off... you can actually destroy in vista with a controller and people still place top in FFA BRs using just controllers...

If I am being frank... if you only play on controller and have never touched a k&m for a shooter your entire life then you don’t actually know how hard it can be to properly track moving and strafing targets... you don’t know the pain of having your crosshairs just barely 1mm from the character model only to have your shots completely miss. Having to constantly swipe your mouse downwards just to manage obscene levels of recoil people usually never have to deal with on a Controller...

Many of us who switched from controller to k&m for shooters have had to work far FAR harder to get skills necessary to even make it work to our benefits... many you will never ever think you’d need until you played on k&m... and it honestly blows my mind how many of you who have been playing Halo ALL your trucking lives want people who are still getting used to the ropes of reach and the later releasing Halo 2 remaster and 3 to deal with experienced legal aimbotters who will have zero problems dealing with a control scheme that takes far more effort and skill to use... its no wonder even with games like fortnite that support crossplay, you always see the control methods being separated and sorted by input methods...

if no one will compromise then this is frankly the only foreseeably easy way for the devs to go about handling a controller with aim assist on a now on PC FPS
I'm a console player but it seems like 343 needs to commit to a decision regarding crossplay. They say there are no current plans but then include controller support for PC?

I agree that PC players shouldn't have to think twice about using a different input method than the default PC controls for a PC game.

If the PC variety streamers in the Twitch Rivals on Tuesday use controller it is going to turn off a lot of the potential PC players (same thing happens if they use KBM and get wrecked by controller).

TLDR: if no crossplay-> PC build should not support controller....if crossplay-> 343 needs to balance/reduce aim assist.
A Halo not having controller support just sounds ridiculous. One of the big issues brought up from this flight is that the mouse input seems to have some delay for a lot of people so that could be a big factor in this.

Bullet magnetism is still there for K&M users just not aim assist like "sticky aim". At the moment it seems they need to tone down the "sticky aim" a bit but they definitely should not remove it.
Just fix the mouse input. it's so bad it's not even funny. the controller is not the issue.Yes the aim assist is strong, but a mouse and keyboard is just superior in every way in a FPS. If they fix this one issue, controller players have no chance.

Go play cs-go or overwatch, then come back to this game. You will come to the conclusion that the mouse input is so off that the game is nearly unplayable.

If this goes live with this problem, steam will kill this game with all the negative reviews, and I will not be purchasing this game.

Please fix this major issue!
I'm a console player but it seems like 343 needs to commit to a decision regarding crossplay. They say there are no current plans but then include controller support for PC?

I agree that PC players shouldn't have to think twice about using a different input method than the default PC controls for a PC game.

If the PC variety streamers in the Twitch Rivals on Tuesday use controller it is going to turn off a lot of the potential PC players (same thing happens if they use KBM and get wrecked by controller).

TLDR: if no crossplay-> PC build should not support controller....if crossplay-> 343 needs to balance/reduce
Controller support needs to be included for streaming, laptop users, and for people who want to play causually/just use one. Hardly any game doesn't have controller support. Destiny and other fps games use it. Reach is incredibly casual and others experiences shouldn't be compromised because of the competitive side
I'm a console player but it seems like 343 needs to commit to a decision regarding crossplay. They say there are no current plans but then include controller support for PC?

I agree that PC players shouldn't have to think twice about using a different input method than the default PC controls for a PC game.

If the PC variety streamers in the Twitch Rivals on Tuesday use controller it is going to turn off a lot of the potential PC players (same thing happens if they use KBM and get wrecked by controller).

TLDR: if no crossplay-> PC build should not support controller....if crossplay-> 343 needs to balance/reduce
Controller support needs to be included for streaming, laptop users, and for people who want to play causually/just use one. Hardly any game doesn't have controller support. Destiny and other fps games use it. Reach is incredibly casual and others experiences shouldn't be compromised because of the competitive side
Ok then as I said, if it is so essential they need to make some adjustments due to the backlash they are getting. I haven't seen anybody address it which is worrying. I would venture to say that most PC players don't want to buy an XBOX controller to be able to play at a competitive level and you also don't want to think that you are losing games solely because of the default input method for PC.

They are hosting this pre-release tournament which showcases high profile Twitch users with no indication that the input has been changed/fixed. Are they playing on a more polished build or did they ditch the whole "ready when it's ready" mantra? This will most likely be the most attention it has received since the initial announcement and it will be bad if such a disparity regarding input is highlighted to the public eye.
I'm a console player but it seems like 343 needs to commit to a decision regarding crossplay. They say there are no current plans but then include controller support for PC?

I agree that PC players shouldn't have to think twice about using a different input method than the default PC controls for a PC game.

If the PC variety streamers in the Twitch Rivals on Tuesday use controller it is going to turn off a lot of the potential PC players (same thing happens if they use KBM and get wrecked by controller).

TLDR: if no crossplay-> PC build should not support controller....if crossplay-> 343 needs to balance/reduce aim assist.
A Halo not having controller support just sounds ridiculous. One of the big issues brought up from this flight is that the mouse input seems to have some delay for a lot of people so that could be a big factor in this.

Bullet magnetism is still there for K&M users just not aim assist like "sticky aim". At the moment it seems they need to tone down the "sticky aim" a bit but they definitely should not remove it.
1) I get that it's "A Halo game". But it's a PC -- a PC version -- of a Halo game. So i could easily retort "controller being a favoured competitive input method on a PC game is ridiculous" and I'd be fully right. You can't let the fact it's a Halo game override common sense when you're porting it to a platform that traditionally uses KB+M as its control scheme "just because".

2) No, bullet magnetism is NOT there for KB+M users, neither is sticky aim. Controller users have BOTH of these, and the real problem isn't sticky aim, it's bullet magnetism, though when you COMBINE both, they collectively give controllers a considerable advantage, particularly on smaller maps, and particularly with precision weapons where each shot has to count.

But yeah, bullet magnetism is the real culprit as it effectively means you can shoot an entire spartan's-width to the side of your target and that's close enough for it to count as a hit. When your enemies effective hitboxes are more than twice the size as a direct result of this, you've got an issue, and I can't for the life of me comprehend why some of you people are apathetic towards this. Doubling enemy hitbox sizes doesn't compensate for the enhanced precision of mouse. It doesn't level the playing field. It DESTROYS it.
MikauAnaki wrote:
If you really hate controllers that much then 343i should add a special gamemode that turns off the aim assist. Don't ruin the Halo experience for long-time fans because you wanna maintain your kbm superiority.
Dude, I don't care if controller players get bullet magnetism and aim assist in campaign, but in multiplayer it's just brokenly strong, and it would be a laughing stock for a PC game to release where using the native PC controls of a mouse and keyboard put you at a major disadvantage against controller users. Specifically when the game already has an Xbox version where you controller users can play it to your desire.

This hardly 'ruins the experience for long time fans'. You denialists need to accept that you're literally intending to play the PC VERSION of the game, but you want it to basically be dominated by controllers? Wtf? I don't go up to the latest console release and complain about controllers being stronger than mouse and keyboard, so why is it somehow OK for the reverse on this forum?
Just fix the mouse input. it's so bad it's not even funny. the controller is not the issue.Yes the aim assist is strong, but a mouse and keyboard is just superior in every way in a FPS. If they fix this one issue, controller players have no chance.

Go play cs-go or overwatch, then come back to this game. You will come to the conclusion that the mouse input is so off that the game is nearly unplayable.

If this goes live with this problem, steam will kill this game with all the negative reviews, and I will not be purchasing this game.

Please fix this major issue!
No lol, you haven't been paying attention. The mouse input lag affects different players differently, and many players are having little to no issue, whilst others are having huge issues. Controllers are still dominating across the board -- even people with no mouse input issues are still getting trashed. You really don't seem to realise just how over-tuned the controller bullet magnetism really is, do you?

Even with 100% buttery perfect smooth mouse input, controllers still have a huge advantage and i'm quite frankly sick of how many people ITT seem to be defending the way it is?

MikauAnaki wrote:
I don't want the experience on controller to feel actually awful to use on PC. Mouse is an objectively more accurate and faster method of aiming than a joystick, controllers NEED the aim assist to keep up. I've never destroyed a KB/M player, only kept up with them.
I don't disagree that they need some level of aim assist -- but the way it's currently tuned is simply put, too strong. FAR too strong. At the end of the day, you're choosing to play the PC version with your controller, yet you expect special treatment. You come to the PC VERSION and expect it to bend to console player's whims?
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