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Ginsu0311 wrote:
No chance. That's unfair if you have an 'assist' of any kind.

I wouldn't recommend controllers unless it's for CO-OP or Campaign mode either, thumb-sticks just don't come close to mouse accuracy and speed. On the bright side you can customise your keys and you don't actually have to use WSAD like the rest of us if you find something that suits you better.
If people want that option, let them have it. Its about having fun. This is a set of games that was on the 360. No reason to shut people out for wanting to play a certain way.
tsassi wrote:
I personally don't think Controllers are a handicap anymore as far as they have come, but using them exclusively for shooters will not allow you to ever become better at FPSs because you are indeed limiting yourself to what the controller offers and what it does hold your hand with.
Better in what way though? Is switching to an input method that's perhaps more difficult really needed to become better? Does mastering the mouse make you a better player than master the controller?

I feel like this question isn't really sensible because, in a way, when you switch input methods you are playing a different game. Evidently, being good with a controller doesn't make you good with a mouse, and vice versa. They are two entirely different sets of skills. Unless there's absolutely a ton of aim assist on the controller, which one is harder to master seems very subjective.

The only thing I have to say on it is that if someone was completely new to FPS gaming and got to choose, I'd recommend them to go with mouse and keyboard. Why? Because I believe the aiming system there is more intuitive to learn. But if a game has both input methods set up and balanced well? I don't think it really makes sense for anyone to switch from their preferred input unless they want to learn something new.

SO While I DO agree that K&M is superior to Controller, it takes far more effort and work to get better at it than it does with a controller, so people saying they need the handicap for controller need to use K&M and realize how hard it actually is to use...
I think a lot of this comes down to your background. You moved from consoles to PCs, so you had a reference point for how good you should've been, unlike when you were learning to play on a controller. Someone with a PC background could arrive to the opposite conclusion. I've personally had experience with both for a great part of my life, though I've played more on a controller because of Halo. Honestly, I don't think either method felt inherently more difficult to get better with. Perhaps the mouse felt a bit easier as a total beginner because it's just more intuitive, but once you become adequate, I really don't see a difference from personal experience.

One thing I think deserves to be mentioned regarding aim assist and bullet magnetism is that whenever you ask a competitive Halo player, they always want one thing: less. You'd get few Halo players to agree that there should be none at all, but many would agree that what there is now is unnecessary.
Here's a funny story actually, my very first experience on a PC FPS was DOOM, and I played it exclusively on keyboard, never touching the mouse (as crazy as that sounds). But as a Kid I made it work and beat all games in the series that way... Wasn't until years later when I got Halo for PC that I actually started using a Mouse to play FPSs on PC, but I digress...

To answer your question, once I switched from controller to K&M, my reaction time became significantly better as did my twitch reflexes and precision as to where to put or keep my crosshair. Keeping in mind the spray patterns of weapons also became something important because I no longer had magnetism helping me out... Most importantly, my ability to lead projectiles and hit them consistently improved tenfold.

This however took the course of 5+ years, between adjusting and re adjusting my sensitivity (and now Mouse DPi), as well as my movement habits... Something I cannot say I ever would've had to worry too much about in a console FPS had I still stuck to using controllers. Being able to jump and aim at the same time was also HUGE for me, especially since I could not afford any fancy controllers at the time and I could not get used to Bumper Jumper over Default/Recon...

By the way, I am not saying that controllers are in any way, shape or form bad... if an Elite controller player can get good enough with a controller to compete with a K&M player on equal footing that is totally fine... but I'm just saying that K&M pretty much forces you as a player to improve in order to get better in shooters because it in no way holds your hands, which IMO automatically makes it better than a controller.

Like I stated before, if you put the world's best Controller FPS player with the World's best K&M FPS player, but you still allowed the controller player some level of aim assist, can you really say the controller player is more skilled? even if in a match they're almost if not completely even? Surely you must understand why this topic has been so divisive for many years... People just don't like the idea of someone having any semblance of assistance being on equal footing to someone who has had to work hard to get to the skill they've gotten to.

You could argue that this is an elitist and honestly worthless mindset to have, but at the same time I can somewhat understand where these people are coming from, as it is the same reason cheating/aimbotting is so heavily frowned upon... Perhaps someday we won't have to make these kinds of arguments anymore, but the only way that's gonna happen is if crossplay between consoles and PC continue to be pushed, as we will never truly know how far we've come until the boundaries are pushed...
SpartanHex wrote:
Emmareld wrote:
I mean I suppose so, it wouldn't really be that big of an advantage over a Keyboard and mouse player.
On a competitive view, it doesn't really closes the gap, when it comes to aiming Keyboard and Mouse will win every time, aim assist or no. There is a bit more to these games than just good aim though, at least on objective modes. I know that from my experience on Halo 1 CE, Halo 2V and Halo Online with both controller and K/M.
Agreed.
At the highest levels of competitive play, K/M will dominate. With K/M support coming to consoles, eventually every pro will have to make the jump from controller to K/M if they want to have a chance at maintaining their Halo careers. Most will probably move to PC to get the FPS advantage as well.
Ginsu0311 wrote:
No chance. That's unfair if you have an 'assist' of any kind.

I wouldn't recommend controllers unless it's for CO-OP or Campaign mode either, thumb-sticks just don't come close to mouse accuracy and speed. On the bright side you can customise your keys and you don't actually have to use WSAD like the rest of us if you find something that suits you better.
If people want that option, let them have it. Its about having fun. This is a set of games that was on the 360. No reason to shut people out for wanting to play a certain way.
I don't agree with aim assist, if people want to use a controller they should be able to, without any kind of automatic assistance, I've made this clear in my posts.
Ginsu0311 wrote:
No chance. That's unfair if you have an 'assist' of any kind.

I wouldn't recommend controllers unless it's for CO-OP or Campaign mode either, thumb-sticks just don't come close to mouse accuracy and speed. On the bright side you can customise your keys and you don't actually have to use WSAD like the rest of us if you find something that suits you better.
Controller users are already at a disadvantage as everyone points out, so giving them an aim assist will help them but does not make it unfairly easier than using a keyboard and mouse. The aim assist would only stand to help level the playing field while KB/M users would even still have the advantage. I don't see any reason for someone to have an issue with this.
This is absolutely true. A mouse and keyboard is always going to be easier to aim with than a controller with aim assist. There's no reason not to give controller users aim assist as it doesn't give any advantage over the mouse and keyboard. More game developers are giving game pad aim assist support nowadays which makes me happy. PC is supposed to be extremely customization so I should be able to play using what i'm comfortable with and i'm much more comfortable with a controller (even if I only use it on a few games.).
Ginsu0311 wrote:
No chance. That's unfair if you have an 'assist' of any kind.

I wouldn't recommend controllers unless it's for CO-OP or Campaign mode either, thumb-sticks just don't come close to mouse accuracy and speed. On the bright side you can customise your keys and you don't actually have to use WSAD like the rest of us if you find something that suits you better.
If people want that option, let them have it. Its about having fun. This is a set of games that was on the 360. No reason to shut people out for wanting to play a certain way.
Yeah, but others find fun in fair competition, and dying in a game because the game gave that person a helping hand for using a controller can reduce how fun it feels. Now I'm fine with aim assist, in single-player, co-op, and custom games, because as you said some may find that more fun and in those cases you don't really mess with the players who want fair multiplayer competition with no extra help given to opponents.
ENDgie wrote:
Ginsu0311 wrote:
No chance. That's unfair if you have an 'assist' of any kind.

I wouldn't recommend controllers unless it's for CO-OP or Campaign mode either, thumb-sticks just don't come close to mouse accuracy and speed. On the bright side you can customise your keys and you don't actually have to use WSAD like the rest of us if you find something that suits you better.
If people want that option, let them have it. Its about having fun. This is a set of games that was on the 360. No reason to shut people out for wanting to play a certain way.
Yeah, but others find fun in fair competition, and dying in a game because the game gave that person a helping hand for using a controller can reduce how fun it feels. Now I'm fine with aim assist, in single-player, co-op, and custom games, because as you said some may find that more fun and in those cases you don't really mess with the players who want fair multiplayer competition with no extra help given to opponents.
For me, its only a matter of fine tuning the aim assist (which just sighly slows downs your reticle if you're using a controller) while keeping bullet magnetism the same for keyboard/mouse and gamepads, if possible just remove bullet magnetism (because come on, bullet magnetism will make the bullet go to their target direction even though you're not directly aiming at it, it helps people with bad aim and gets in the way of people aiming properly, no one wants to see a perfectly head aimed plasma burst going to the chest or you leading the shots perfectly only for the weapon itself to shoot further to a side than you want). On halo games, at least on first halo, that can be done per weapon basis with aim assist settings even taking into consideration whatever you're zoomed or not and things like max and minimal range for it to take effect. Due to how much detailed the internal settings for each weapon is regarding aim assist i've never heard a single case of people being able to abuse it on any pc Halo game. Edit: Better wording
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Comparing a guy who probably spent hours upon hours perfecting this style of play to people who casually wanna have fun in Halo for an hour or so a day, not really what I would call a good example to make your point.
It shouldn't matter overall, but the right call seems to be "no".
Terg500 wrote:
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Comparing a guy who probably spent hours upon hours perfecting this style of play to people who casually wanna have fun in Halo for an hour or so a day, not really what I would call a good example to make your point.
Dude... people have had nearly 20 years to perfect their Halo Game on a Controller... all most of us have had to Practice on PC is Halo Custom Edition, 2 Vista and that one other game I forget the name of... You cannot possibly tell me people are not for the most part good enough on Controller to compete vs K&M on PC. I've still encountered controller players that faceroll me even in Team Snipers... Controller players don't need as much help with aiming on a controller as a lot of people are making it out, honestly speaking...
Terg500 wrote:
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Comparing a guy who probably spent hours upon hours perfecting this style of play to people who casually wanna have fun in Halo for an hour or so a day, not really what I would call a good example to make your point.
Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't quake had autoaim which was actually way more agressive than aim assist?
SpartanHex wrote:
Terg500 wrote:
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Comparing a guy who probably spent hours upon hours perfecting this style of play to people who casually wanna have fun in Halo for an hour or so a day, not really what I would call a good example to make your point.
Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't quake had autoaim which was actually way more agressive than aim assist?
The first one somewhat did and it was mostly because it was ID's first true 3D game and a lot of people still used Keyboard exclusively which made aiming very difficult (remember, until Quake, people only had games such as DOOM to go by) ... That being said, future Quake titles, such as 3 Arena and Live had no such auto aim, so shots were 100% on you the player, hence why the game has sorta died down as the skill ceiling is just too high for most people to be willing to reach nowadays...

Hence why so many people are Hype for Halo MCC on PC as it is pretty much going to be the middle ground for Arena FPS between accesibility and skill required...
Terg500 wrote:
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Comparing a guy who probably spent hours upon hours perfecting this style of play to people who casually wanna have fun in Halo for an hour or so a day, not really what I would call a good example to make your point.
Dude... people have had nearly 20 years to perfect their Halo Game on a Controller... all most of us have had to Practice on PC is Halo Custom Edition, 2 Vista and that one other game I forget the name of... You cannot possibly tell me people are not for the most part good enough on Controller to compete vs K&M on PC. I've still encountered controller players that faceroll me even in Team Snipers... Controller players don't need as much help with aiming on a controller as a lot of people are making it out, honestly speaking...
All the practice we PC players had was practically just every other FPS title ever released on PC to get used to the movements, aim etc. that we can again set up to our preferences in the options as soon as Halo MCC PC is released. Getting used to the Halo gameplay would take a few weeks at most imo for the PC casuals to catch up to the years trained console casuals. The moment KB/M players get matched against controller players it would look more like this if we continue to do video examples in a more real everyday environment.
Terg500 wrote:
Terg500 wrote:
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Comparing a guy who probably spent hours upon hours perfecting this style of play to people who casually wanna have fun in Halo for an hour or so a day, not really what I would call a good example to make your point.
Dude... people have had nearly 20 years to perfect their Halo Game on a Controller... all most of us have had to Practice on PC is Halo Custom Edition, 2 Vista and that one other game I forget the name of... You cannot possibly tell me people are not for the most part good enough on Controller to compete vs K&M on PC. I've still encountered controller players that faceroll me even in Team Snipers... Controller players don't need as much help with aiming on a controller as a lot of people are making it out, honestly speaking...
All the practice we PC players had was practically just every other FPS title ever released on PC to get used to the movements, aim etc. that we can again set up to our preferences in the options as soon as Halo MCC PC is released. Getting used to the Halo gameplay would take a few weeks at most imo for the PC casuals to catch up to the years trained console casuals. The moment KB/M players get matched against controller players it would look more like this if we continue to do video examples in a more real everyday environment.
This is how it would be for something like SWAT and maybe Team Snipers, but for regular game modes where the TTK is 4 times higher, I sincerely doubt it will be as easy as you think, for reference, go into Halo 2 Vista and try to 4SK an established controller player before they can 4SK you, it's hard... Just because you're Good at Halo doesn't automatically make you good at CoD, at Counter Strike, at any other arena shooter like Quake, etc and vice versa...
Terg500 wrote:
Terg500 wrote:
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Comparing a guy who probably spent hours upon hours perfecting this style of play to people who casually wanna have fun in Halo for an hour or so a day, not really what I would call a good example to make your point.
Dude... people have had nearly 20 years to perfect their Halo Game on a Controller... all most of us have had to Practice on PC is Halo Custom Edition, 2 Vista and that one other game I forget the name of... You cannot possibly tell me people are not for the most part good enough on Controller to compete vs K&M on PC. I've still encountered controller players that faceroll me even in Team Snipers... Controller players don't need as much help with aiming on a controller as a lot of people are making it out, honestly speaking...
All the practice we PC players had was practically just every other FPS title ever released on PC to get used to the movements, aim etc. that we can again set up to our preferences in the options as soon as Halo MCC PC is released. Getting used to the Halo gameplay would take a few weeks at most imo for the PC casuals to catch up to the years trained console casuals. The moment KB/M players get matched against controller players it would look more like this if we continue to do video examples in a more real everyday environment.
This is how it would be for something like SWAT and maybe Team Snipers, but for regular game modes where the TTK is 4 times higher, I sincerely doubt it will be as easy as you think, for reference, go into Halo 2 Vista and try to 4SK an established controller player before they can 4SK you, it's hard... Just because you're Good at Halo doesn't automatically make you good at CoD, at Counter Strike, at any other arena shooter like Quake, etc and vice versa...
Halo 2 vista does has aim assist with the controller which is helping to even out the "established" keyboard and mouse vs "established" controller player match on this example.
SpartanHex wrote:
Terg500 wrote:
Terg500 wrote:
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Comparing a guy who probably spent hours upon hours perfecting this style of play to people who casually wanna have fun in Halo for an hour or so a day, not really what I would call a good example to make your point.
Dude... people have had nearly 20 years to perfect their Halo Game on a Controller... all most of us have had to Practice on PC is Halo Custom Edition, 2 Vista and that one other game I forget the name of... You cannot possibly tell me people are not for the most part good enough on Controller to compete vs K&M on PC. I've still encountered controller players that faceroll me even in Team Snipers... Controller players don't need as much help with aiming on a controller as a lot of people are making it out, honestly speaking...
All the practice we PC players had was practically just every other FPS title ever released on PC to get used to the movements, aim etc. that we can again set up to our preferences in the options as soon as Halo MCC PC is released. Getting used to the Halo gameplay would take a few weeks at most imo for the PC casuals to catch up to the years trained console casuals. The moment KB/M players get matched against controller players it would look more like this if we continue to do video examples in a more real everyday environment.
This is how it would be for something like SWAT and maybe Team Snipers, but for regular game modes where the TTK is 4 times higher, I sincerely doubt it will be as easy as you think, for reference, go into Halo 2 Vista and try to 4SK an established controller player before they can 4SK you, it's hard... Just because you're Good at Halo doesn't automatically make you good at CoD, at Counter Strike, at any other arena shooter like Quake, etc and vice versa...
Halo 2 vista does has aim assist with the controller which is helping to even out the "established" keyboard and mouse vs "established" controller player match on this example.
But it is also not fine tuned, so it in turn makes using K&M over a controller pretty much a handicap, especially if you don't use hotkeys to BxR combos on K&M... What I am saying is they shouldn't give controllers too strong aim assist, but at the same time, they shouldn't make K&M the only way to really enjoy the game on PC... if they can find a perfect balance so that no one control scheme is really better than the other, then I'm okay with that, hard work and dedication aside...
It won't happen. While it would be a nice ease of life addition, it's best not to give certain forms of control preferential treatment. Even if M&KB is still objectively better. Let people play with what they want, they'll have to live with the consequences.
SpartanHex wrote:
Terg500 wrote:
Terg500 wrote:
Hurbii wrote:
Consolers need it for cross-play to be competitive/fair in any way. End of story for me, I'm completely ok with it as a pc gamer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwcOP8CVR5I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zffq-1G_x_E

Honestly, these arguments all but hold no water anymore in my book...
Comparing a guy who probably spent hours upon hours perfecting this style of play to people who casually wanna have fun in Halo for an hour or so a day, not really what I would call a good example to make your point.
Dude... people have had nearly 20 years to perfect their Halo Game on a Controller... all most of us have had to Practice on PC is Halo Custom Edition, 2 Vista and that one other game I forget the name of... You cannot possibly tell me people are not for the most part good enough on Controller to compete vs K&M on PC. I've still encountered controller players that faceroll me even in Team Snipers... Controller players don't need as much help with aiming on a controller as a lot of people are making it out, honestly speaking...
All the practice we PC players had was practically just every other FPS title ever released on PC to get used to the movements, aim etc. that we can again set up to our preferences in the options as soon as Halo MCC PC is released. Getting used to the Halo gameplay would take a few weeks at most imo for the PC casuals to catch up to the years trained console casuals. The moment KB/M players get matched against controller players it would look more like this if we continue to do video examples in a more real everyday environment.
This is how it would be for something like SWAT and maybe Team Snipers, but for regular game modes where the TTK is 4 times higher, I sincerely doubt it will be as easy as you think, for reference, go into Halo 2 Vista and try to 4SK an established controller player before they can 4SK you, it's hard... Just because you're Good at Halo doesn't automatically make you good at CoD, at Counter Strike, at any other arena shooter like Quake, etc and vice versa...
Halo 2 vista does has aim assist with the controller which is helping to even out the "established" keyboard and mouse vs "established" controller player match on this example.
But it is also not fine tuned, so it in turn makes using K&M over a controller pretty much a handicap, especially if you don't use hotkeys to BxR combos on K&M... What I am saying is they should give controllers too strong aim assist, but at the same time, they shouldn't make K&M the only way to really enjoy the game on PC... if they can find a perfect balance so that no one control scheme is really better than the other, then I'm okay with that, hard work and dedication aside...
I fully agree that aim assists needs to be balanced to stay aim assist instead of auto aim haha. Project Cartographer did reduced aim assist which was way too poweful on vanilla halo 2 vista, though i haven't played nearly enough with a controller to evaluate if its on a decent sweet spot. I kinda use both control schemes picking the controller when i'm driving a vehicle and then going keyboard and mouse on foot and on non driver vehicle seats. Driving with the mouse on halo games just feels wrong.
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