The "DMR Start" Problem

Important notice!
I am not advocating for any weapon stat changes (damage, range ect). The only thing I want is to make DMR start a toggleable option in matchmaking. DMR start was not as prevalent in old Reach as it is today. In my opinion DMR start is a bad standard mode for social games (mostly team slayer/objectives/BTB) and here is why.

The Designated Marksman Rifle
DMR is a very “noob friendly” weapon that excels at all ranges; close, medium, long, and extreme (across the map), and is also very effective against vehicles. The previous “iterations” of this weapon has never been AS powerful overall. Halo CE Pistol is very powerful, but it has a much higher skill ceiling at most ranges, especially extreme range (shot leading ect), and other weapons like the AR and the plasma rifle can compete with, if not counter it at close range. The Halo 2 Battle Rifle is also an extremely powerful weapon, but at extreme ranges it is not as effective as the DMR and there are non-power weapons that can compete with it at close range.

Given how vehicles work in Halo CE the Pistol is not as effective against them unless you aim at the driver (It can be very wasteful otherwise). The driver can then move into cover to regen his shield. The same goes for Halo 2 where Battle Rifle is not very effective against most vehicles (Good luck shooting down a banshee with it). In Reach this is not the case. With the DMR you don’t really need to aim at the driver for it to be extremely effective and moving into cover isn’t as effective for the driver because of Reach vehicle health. Two people with the DMR can melt a banshee in seconds. If the banshee survives the initial encounter it is left in a very damage state with no possible recovery. Then some guy who just spawned can pick it off across the map with his DMR. In DMR starts this happens very often to the point it hurts the vehicle combat part of Halo. Overall the DMR starts give you less incentive to use vehicles and to know about power weapon spawns. With everybody having DMRs at the start it is often just too dangerous to stick your head out and head for power weapons and vehicles. I have been to many objective games/BTB where most players are just “plinking” at each other with DMRs across the map for the whole match. Not even Halo CE Blood Gulch had that problem.

The “leveling the playing field” argument:
A lot of people argue that non-DMR starts such as AR/Pistol will have one good team controlling power weapons/DMRs who will then proceed to trash the other team. The thing is that this has always been a part of Halo. A good team with knowledge of the power weapon spawns ect will win against a worse team. Also, a very important point is that a good map will have several DMRs/Battle rifles spawning on each side of the map. This has been the case in Halo 2 and 3. It is very hard for a team to control all DMR spawns and power weapon spawns at the same time for a considerable amount of time, especially with vehicles on the map. A good map “levels the playing field” on its own.

TO CLARIFY AGAIN: I do not want to remove DMR start from the game or change any weapon stats. I like using the DMR, but I think AR/pistol starts makes for better gameplay in most cases. I only want 343 Industries to give us more matchmaking options

Agree, I posted yesterday how it makes big team way to hectic because you have 16 people all running around with dmrs. Snipers everywhere basically

I agree wholeheartedly. I feel like I've started with AR/DMR rather than AR/Magnum way too many times. You're starting with a really killer weapon, in terms of range and accuracy specifically. If I wanted to worry about getting my head blown off at the start of the match, I'd go with SWAT, Snipers, or just go competitive. At this point, starting without a DMR is like a breath of fresh air.

Now, do I hate using the DMR, or having other people using the DMR? Of course not, it's a great gun, period. I just don't want every match to be DMR or bust.

AcidicAlkaline wrote:

The DMR start is my biggest complaint with the game atm. I didn't even know there was a possibility to start with something other than the DMR in social slayer or objective modes. Every single match I've been in has been with DMR's to start, other than the obvious ones like Grifball. If 343 could just reduce the amount of DMR starts, or let lobbies vote on the match, then I think that would alleviate a lot of my complaints with the game. As is, DMR starts ruin the variety in Halo and create a boring, unfun experience.

This is my issue as well. I, and all my friends, hate the DMR starts on BTB. Vehicles, Turrets, any other weapon (sans sniper, rockets) is absolutely useless. What kind of halo game has a warthog be so useless? The obvious solution is to have AR/Magnum starts with DMR pickup.

The Halo 3 BR didn't tear through vehicles like a hot knife through butter. The Halo Reach DMR is too good against vehicles, and too good compared to other weapons. Throw in PC aiming with keyboard and mouse, and you have a weapon that now shuts down half the map.

"Let's use a warthog and take them down!" said no one ever, as the warthog can't even leave base without getting shot from 5 different angles.

I agree, just put the OPTION slayer classic !

But as i know, their's such an option on console right ?

I put that here, From REDDIT, not me.

The starting gear should be Assault Rifle/Assault Rifle + Magnum, especially in BTB. DMR start makes Halo Reach a generic shooter and it sucks the fun out of the game. That is:

• It makes other weapons useless: the DMR isn't the most powerful weapon in the game, but when everybody starts with it, almost every weapon you could pick from the ground becomes obsolete:
• Short range and melee weapons become useless since there is no way you can shorten the distances between you and the enemy. For example the only way to use a shotgun in maps like Tempest or Breakpoint is to either A) hide and wait for an unsuspicious enemy to come in your area or B) crouch walk to get to the enemy and hope they don't spot you before you can hit them. But that doesn't feel much like Halo now does it?
• The DMR and the Needle Rifle become useless for obvious reasons. I could be wrong, but I don't recall assault rifles being on the ground in Halo Reach maps; on the other hand DMRs and Needle Rifles are map weapons. Almost like the DMR should be a power weapon, not a weapon everyone has.
• The sniper rifle and the focus rifle lose a lot of their importance. A DMR is almost as good as a sniper rifle in mid-long range. It's not uncommon to see a sniper lose to a good DMR player. Two DMR players on the other hand usually do a better job than a sniper in controlling a part of the map in open ground. That being said, sniper rifles still are one of the (few) weapons still worth seeking out in BTB.
• Magnum: it's strength is the fact that you can one-shot players whose shield is down. With AR/Magnum start you probably would still use the assault rifle as your primary weapon since it's more effective than the magnum in medium/short range; you would switch to the magnum when you empty your mag during a gunfight or when you spot an enemy without shields. Now there's not much use of a weapon like that when the DMR does everything the magnum does but better; there's also no need of a secondary weapon to switch to when you have no time to reload, since a single mag of the DMR is more than enough to kill 2 players.
• Heavy weapons: their main use should be as anti-vehicle. Now there's not much use of an anti-vehicle weapon when 2 or 3 DMRs can do a better job than a rocket launcher at taking out a Warthog+gunner or a full-manned Falcon. Their turret loses to a DMR in almost every situation, except when you catch a player on foot in open ground, in mid-close range of the turret. Hell, you can easily take out a Wraith when you have 3 players focusing their DMR fire on it.
• Fixed turrets: they are a joke. If everyone didn't have a DMR they would be such a powerful tool to control a part of the map in the open (and that is their meaning in the game I guess). You would use a fixed turret to suppress the enemy players, and they could do nothing but hide behind cover and find a way to get behind you. Now with everyone having a DMR, you can't survive 5 seconds firing a turret. Detaching a turret is also pointless, because you still have less firepower then every player you could encounter, and you are also an easy target due to the fact that you move slowly.
• It heavily changes the vehicle gameplay, in the worse. As I mentioned before: the DMR is exceptionally effective at taking out vehicles. That wouldn't be a problem if there was just a single guy trying to hit you when you drive, but since everyone has a DMR, driving is a death sentence. Vehicle are supposed to be anti-infantry, not the opposite.
• Banshee and Falcon: you can't even get in shooting range before getting shot down. These vehicles make you a big target, and the fact that you are flying means almost everyone on the ground will notice you and try to kill you (which they easily can, since the DMR allows them to do so, unlike the assault rifle). It's like having a bullseye painted on you.
• Ghost: its front protection isn't nearly enough to prevent you from getting blown up in 5 seconds, when two players shoot at you with a DMR. It's supposed to be an hit-and-run vehicle, but you really can't run away when 2 angry people are putting precision shots in your back. You are lucky if you manage to even approach the enemy without losing your shield.
• Warthog: this one hits close to home. I love driving the warthog and getting driver assists. But what's really the point when your gunner can't survive for 15 seconds? The warthog in BTB is almost pointless. In this flight I never seen a gunner getting more than a killing spree.
• Wraith: didn't see it much in action in the flight, but you know the drill. Gets blown to pieces pretty quickly.
• Objective gamemodes don't seem to be designed around it: you can forget flag runs, for example. It's way too easy to take out a specific player when the enemy has reasons to do so. I don't have solid arguments in favor
  of this point, but then again it just doesn't feel right. It's just an impression, it feels like teamwork loses a lot of its value when everyone starts with DMR. All you need is good shooting, and everything else doesn't matter.
• My most important point: it makes the game feel like a generic shooter. The map becomes just a playground where you kill enemies. No point in rushing to power weapons, no point in controlling map zones, no point in using vehicles, no point in staying close to your teammates. My first thought when I respawn is to locate an enemy to shoot at, because I know I need nothing else but the weapon I respawn with to be effective. I don't need to worry about enemies vehicles roaming around, or to acknowledge where my teammates are, which team controls what weapons and what parts of the map. It feels like a bare bones shooter and it doesn't feel like Halo at all to me.

It hurts to see how much potential of the game is wasted for a simple thing like this, it really does. The fact that the game is on PC and people are more precise than ever in mid-long range doesn't help either.
Now I know that the starting gear in Halo games have been discussed countless time before. I don't even hope they actually make the assault rifle the default weapons in the final game. I'd just like to know if I'm the only one who thinks that DMR start sucks.

AcidicAlkaline wrote:

^This, absolutely. With everyone starting out with DMRs, there's little reason for anyone to to use anything but them. Vehicles are completely invalidated, and most tactics go out the window. It becomes a purely a game of "who can ping the other players better from across the map". This also affects the AA-M/K issue a lot of people have been having. People would be far less upset at the AA that controllers have if the game wasn't so completely focused on precision headshots with the DMR. The DMR game modes should still be there - especially for SWAT. There should just be a whole lot more Classic Slayer rounds in 4v4 and 8v8.

It's not just slayer with this problem, it is every gametype.Even when people play the objective instead of purely deathmatching it is a pain because you die the second you leave spawn from someone camping at their own spawn. The maps were simply not designed or balanced around everybody having a dmr on spawn.

10,000% this thread is real T.

I assume everyone here has posted in the MCC feedback thread already? > https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/f3681fbc78fa43878c4aec9a63a46224/topics/mcc-multiplayer-feedback-pc/46d5cc54-4a2d-478d-89c6-ec27fd8ef84a/posts?page=25 <

If not please do. We need to spam this cuz it is honestly out of hand and ruining the experience. I really hope it's going to be dealt with. If not honestly maybe we could run a discord for everyone who doesn't want to have DMR starts? And just run -Yoink- tons of custom games? Haha it's a thought.

I was just talking about this with my friend. We were playing on the map Hemorrhage and the DMR made it impossible for us to be mobile because the landscape is so large with hardly any protection from projectiles. Many players just stuck to one spot on the map that allowed a view spanning over the land and waiting for someone to get into their view.

There are many more maps that suffer the same way, it's clear you weren't supposed to have a DMR starting weapon as you play.

I very much agree. DMR starts always sucked but they suck even more on PC. Vehicles are a bad ideia on most maps. You start with the very best overall weapon and what's effectively a neat paperweight that you will replace for a power weapon.
It's all just DMR battles all the time. Just DMR. Just DMR. Just DMR.

ManiacMonolith wrote:

I assume everyone here has posted in the MCC feedback thread already? > https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/f3681fbc78fa43878c4aec9a63a46224/topics/mcc-multiplayer-feedback-pc/46d5cc54-4a2d-478d-89c6-ec27fd8ef84a/posts <

If not please do. We need to spam this cuz it is honestly out of hand and ruining the experience. I really hope it's going to be dealt with. If not honestly maybe we could run a discord for everyone who doesn't want to have DMR starts? And just run -Yoink- tons of custom games? Haha it's a thought.

Absolutely this.
Regarding the custom games, I already started sending out friends requests to people who don't like DMR start based on their comments on forums (here and the steam forums). So you if you are interested in custom games where we play the default gamemodes without TU DMR, please send me a friend request or accept mine.
I plan to make a group for these kind of custom games, if it gets fairly large (~50 people) it will be very easy to have full lobbies, expecially in busy times like friday and saturday evenings.