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I feel like I just stepped back into 2010 at the old Bungie forums.
I remember why I haven't touched Reach PC since last Sunday... Playing BTB on Hemorrhage/Blood Gulch just now our team was (again) constantly getting bombarded with DMR rounds the moment we spawned from hidden enemy positions, dying in seconds. Isn't this fun? ... Yay?
I feel like I just stepped back into 2010 at the old Bungie forums.
Thank you for insightful comment, you surely added something to the discussion.
Reach for PC is not the same as Reach for xbox 360. The game needs to be fixed, so we are having this thread in 2019.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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I feel like I just stepped back into 2010 at the old Bungie forums.
Thank you for insightful comment, you surely added something to the discussion.
Reach for PC is not the same as Reach for xbox 360. The game needs to be fixed, so we are having this thread in 2019.
Thank you for talking my comment and not understanding the point. These were the same exact issues that people spoke about almost a decade later. Instead of thinking everything is an insult try not be so sarcastic or jump on everyone that comments.
To me it feels like the DMR removes the rest of the weapons, and vehicles from the game. Some vehicles still have uses though very limited and you no longer have to use Rockets or Spartan Lazers to take em out, just shoot'em with your DMR. I haven't even seen one person use a Plasma pistol to try and stop a vehicle anymore let alone even pick it up, and the same goes for the Needler and the Plasma rifle. The game used to be about controlling the weapon spawns and using that to your advantage, it was a vary face to face game, but now everyone just hides in cover across the map and poke people to death.
I feel like I just stepped back into 2010 at the old Bungie forums.
Thank you for insightful comment, you surely added something to the discussion.
Reach for PC is not the same as Reach for xbox 360. The game needs to be fixed, so we are having this thread in 2019.
Thank you for talking my comment and not understanding the point. These were the same exact issues that people spoke about almost a decade later. Instead of thinking everything is an insult try not be so sarcastic or jump on everyone that comments.
>>> see second part of my original comment.
Reach (PC, 2019) is not the same game it was on xbox. Mouse and keyboard, 1080p 60fps. Easier than ever to shoot with precision weapons. I mean just look at team snipers matches on pc and team snipers on xbox. The game needs to be fixed.
una yp wrote:
Most will happen is a playlist that is not dmr starts.
Which is exactly what we're asking!
I feel like I just stepped back into 2010 at the old Bungie forums.
Thank you for insightful comment, you surely added something to the discussion.
Reach for PC is not the same as Reach for xbox 360. The game needs to be fixed, so we are having this thread in 2019.
Thank you for talking my comment and not understanding the point. These were the same exact issues that people spoke about almost a decade later. Instead of thinking everything is an insult try not be so sarcastic or jump on everyone that comments.
>>> see second part of my original comment.
Reach (PC, 2019) is not the same game it was on xbox. Mouse and keyboard, 1080p 60fps. Easier than ever to shoot with precision weapons. I mean just look at team snipers matches on pc and team snipers on xbox. The game needs to be fixed.
That's not what I was talking about. The same issues that happened in 2010, which is the DMR starts ruining the meta of the game was always an issue of discussion even in the Bungie forums. My point was it's sad the same issues that happened years ago is still plaguing the game now. No one moves in Big Team Battle, trying to get the Laser on Paridiso is a nightmare same with any other map where the laser is in the center. What you don't realize is I agree with everything you said. The meta of the game years later needs to be fixed. Pistol/AR worked in 5 it can work in Reach.
I don't come to the Halo Forums at all but this has really frustrated me when playing Big Team Battle. I was wondering if 343 has responded about this issue? I think that the DMR has it's place but it just makes BTB not fun at all.
I don't come to the Halo Forums at all but this has really frustrated me when playing Big Team Battle. I was wondering if 343 has responded about this issue? I think that the DMR has it's place but it just makes BTB not fun at all.
Make sure to post your opinion here https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/f3681fbc78fa43878c4aec9a63a46224/topics/mcc-multiplayer-feedback-pc/46d5cc54-4a2d-478d-89c6-ec27fd8ef84a/posts?page=56#post1110
Postums of 343i himself encouraged players who want to see more AR starts to report it in that thread.
There are really two solutions to the variety of issues that DMR starts brings as opposed to AR/Magnum starts.
Those issues being; the weapons weren't designed around the idea of DMR being a starting weapon and are mostly ignored outside of select super power weapons (snipers, and rockets come to mind), Vehicles become mostly worthless on most game modes outside of Gauss Hogs and tanks, turrets being completely worthless due to it's counter being in your spawning weapon loadout, instead of only needing to fear certain weapons you now need to fear every player spawn at range, camping is an issue due to map control being given to the increased power of sightlines and less power on positioning, sprint becomes even more powerful as it is the only power to get you out of a DMR's sights, lack of variety just being less fun, and a few others that have been listed here.

Those two solutions, realistically, are to either patch the game and overhaul the balance of weapons with the pre-existing maps to try and adjust the sandbox to accommodate for DMR being a starter weapon. That, or, just replace the DMR with the magnum on the standard game modes.

Now, that said, you could just leave it as be, as there are problems that exist with removing DMR starts. Namely "you would be unable to counter people who have picked up a DMR, or other power weapon" and "people would camp because their starting weapons are worthless at range." These are the two most prominent points being made for DMR to stay a standard spawn weapon in most social games. These are legitimate points to consider, and talk about. However, I'd like to throw in my own two cents about these points.

"You would be unable to counter people who have picked up a DMR, or other power weapon." sounds bad, but... Isn't that the point? A team excelled at map and weapon control and effectively shut down the enemy so well they were not only unable to obtain any and all means to defend themselves, but also are continuously shut down to the point of being unable to do so. I would just like to say, that's not really that practical of a result to the average game. Most maps are designed in such a way to ensure that players are physically unable to control an entire map and it's spawns so well that the enemy team, not only ,cannot overwhelm an enemy with sheer numbers, but also be unable to obtain a weapon somewhat near them to have a decent chance, but also be in such a position on the map to not take advantage of their close range starting weapons. That just simply doesn't happen that way. This is also discounting the simple point that halo 3, and heck, Reach, had most social games start with magnum/AR and not really have this issue outside of completely one sided games. Those, however, were just a difference in skill, not that the game encouraged it with it's starting weapons. Those still happen with DMR starts.

"People would camp because their starting weapons are worthless at range." Simply, uh, no. I don't think so. Not only did past halo games simply prove that not true at all, but the idea of obtaining better weapons is that incentive to not do this. If you have to go into a contested mid-fight to obtain, say, a shotgun, you'd do it. Because then, camping with an AR is now a really bad idea if you're going against that shotgun. DMR's, being less frequent thanks to being a pickup, would also pose less a threat to actually moving around the map to control it and it's weapons more. Camping, or controlling an area, with close quarters weapons is not nearly as obnoxious as controlling an entire corner of the map and all it's sightlines with multiple DMRs.

Those are my personal thoughts on the two biggest arguments for DMR starts. I hope we keep the discussion going and have 343 listen to what the majority of the community wants the most, and act on it.
Flatopia wrote:
There are really two solutions to the variety of issues that DMR starts brings as opposed to AR/Magnum starts.
Those issues being; the weapons weren't designed around the idea of DMR being a starting weapon and are mostly ignored outside of select super power weapons (snipers, and rockets come to mind), Vehicles become mostly worthless on most game modes outside of Gauss Hogs and tanks, turrets being completely worthless due to it's counter being in your spawning weapon loadout, instead of only needing to fear certain weapons you now need to fear every player spawn at range, camping is an issue due to map control being given to the increased power of sightlines and less power on positioning, sprint becomes even more powerful as it is the only power to get you out of a DMR's sights, lack of variety just being less fun, and a few others that have been listed here.

Those two solutions, realistically, are to either patch the game and overhaul the balance of weapons with the pre-existing maps to try and adjust the sandbox to accommodate for DMR being a starter weapon. That, or, just replace the DMR with the magnum on the standard game modes.

Now, that said, you could just leave it as be, as there are problems that exist with removing DMR starts. Namely "you would be unable to counter people who have picked up a DMR, or other power weapon" and "people would camp because their starting weapons are worthless at range." These are the two most prominent points being made for DMR to stay a standard spawn weapon in most social games. These are legitimate points to consider, and talk about. However, I'd like to throw in my own two cents about these points.

"You would be unable to counter people who have picked up a DMR, or other power weapon." sounds bad, but... Isn't that the point? A team excelled at map and weapon control and effectively shut down the enemy so well they were not only unable to obtain any and all means to defend themselves, but also are continuously shut down to the point of being unable to do so. I would just like to say, that's not really that practical of a result to the average game. Most maps are designed in such a way to ensure that players are physically unable to control an entire map and it's spawns so well that the enemy team, not only ,cannot overwhelm an enemy with sheer numbers, but also be unable to obtain a weapon somewhat near them to have a decent chance, but also be in such a position on the map to not take advantage of their close range starting weapons. That just simply doesn't happen that way. This is also discounting the simple point that halo 3, and heck, Reach, had most social games start with magnum/AR and not really have this issue outside of completely one sided games. Those, however, were just a difference in skill, not that the game encouraged it with it's starting weapons. Those still happen with DMR starts.

"People would camp because their starting weapons are worthless at range." Simply, uh, no. I don't think so. Not only did past halo games simply prove that not true at all, but the idea of obtaining better weapons is that incentive to not do this. If you have to go into a contested mid-fight to obtain, say, a shotgun, you'd do it. Because then, camping with an AR is now a really bad idea if you're going against that shotgun. DMR's, being less frequent thanks to being a pickup, would also pose less a threat to actually moving around the map to control it and it's weapons more. Camping, or controlling an area, with close quarters weapons is not nearly as obnoxious as controlling an entire corner of the map and all it's sightlines with multiple DMRs.

Those are my personal thoughts on the two biggest arguments for DMR starts. I hope we keep the discussion going and have 343 listen to what the majority of the community wants the most, and act on it.
Good points!
Just to throw in my 2 cent - The DMR start has made the multiplayer become extremely stale. What's the point in a game that doesn't have a loadout when you start with the best weapon? Halo reach BASICALLY HAS A LOADOUT because the DMR is exactly what people would pick if there was a loadout. It defeats the entire purpose of weapon pickups as there's no need to scavenge for a better weapon. Map control also becomes pointless as you aren't fighting for a good spot that has the good weapons.

Instead we're all just starting with the best weapon w/o any variety at all. Magnum + AR would make this game SO much more fun.
Not sure how Reach ever played on console(never owned an Xbox), but with MKB the DMR has proven itself to be a power weapon in its own right. Everyone spawning with one makes the game incredibly stale, reminds me of GoW5 where nobody even bothers with anything but the sniper rifle because you spawn with a Shotgun that is essentially the most versatile weapon in the game. Spawning with DMR makes the game play less like an arena shooter and just like every other hitscan shooter on the market.

I want to keep playing this game, I really do, because games where you start with Ar/Pistol are incredibly fun, especially comboing with plasma weapons into bullet weapons is a really unique and fun playstyle that I have never seen in another game and allows for a lot of variety in weapons used. With DMRs its just plink plink plink until their armor is gone followed by another plink. BTB is suffering especially with this, the large map size means nothing and vehicles/turrets are almost useless due to how easy it is to shred someone using one with your dmr.
Yea I won't be playing as long as DMR starts stay, I like to play BTB OBJ/slayer, people don't move around the map, it's just cross map DMR'ing, it's extremely boring.... I think every CTF BTB i've done had been a 0-0 tie..... all getting in the hog does is get you instantly murdered and it's impossible to carry the flag on foot across the map, people don't even bother trying anymore because they know it's pointless, it feel's like a lite team snipers.

I'm just gonna wait for H3 on PC, Reach really doesn't translate well to PC at all.

Oh and make sure you remove button combo's from H2, that's gonna get macro'd on PC.
Pillow119 wrote:
Klong wrote:
Would be cool to mod the Reach pistol to have a slower RoF and little to no bloom and see how that plays out. Its important to have a good starting precision weapon, but terrible to let it be dominant at all ranges.
While I believe that the Magnum is fine as it is right now in TU settings, I can still agree with this statement, and is pretty much a tl;dr version of the DMR start debacle. People are acting as if the Magnum straight up can't shoot bullets and that the Assault Rifle would be the only weapon worth using in an AR/Magnum start, except it would actually provide opportunities for both weapons to be used. The Assault Rifle can kill people relatively quickly in close range, and the Magnum can be of use at both medium and close range, but is limited by a tight ammo and clip capacity.
Yeah, the magnum isn't a terrible weapon and has decent kill potential! I was playing a magnum start slayer game, and was in the middle of telling my buddy how refreshing it is to start with magnums to have a chance to use other weapons as well. But then I got 5 shot by a guy who spammed his shots as fast as possible and just got the luck of the bloom, while I somewhat paced my shots. That is when it feels bad, and then I finished by telling him "nah, DMR starts are better..."
Moosease wrote:
Amazing to me how a decade ago the Bungie forums were full of people griping about AR starts...now people don't want DMR starts. Amazing.
Yes there are some pretty extreme posts in here generally claiming that they don't want DMR starts period. But I think almost everyone could reasonably agree that a balanced mix of the two types of starts in all game modes wouldn't be a bad idea, especially on PC. AR starts vs. DMR starts drastically change how the game plays, each have their advantages and disadvantages. Having a balance of both would keep things fresh.

Variety is super important, halo has so much potential for a healthy balance of variety, but the playlists are currently not utilizing all of this potential. Moving heavily in favor of one style of gameplay is not a good idea and will be disappointing to either the group of players who enjoyed early Reach, or those who enjoyed later Reach.
I don’t want DMR starts at all. I have no prior Halo or console shooter experience, but I have nearly two decades of both competitive and casual FPS experience on PC. The DMR is basically the perfect weapon for mouse-aim, it’s hitscan, quite spammable(especially with nospread), large magazine, and can take people’s heads off at any distance.

Whatever the DMR’s role or how it acted on console is irrelevent. This is a pc port primarily played with MKB and it’s quite clear that with these controls it earns the title of power weapon. DMR-starts reminds me of Clan Arena mode in Quake, in which every player starts with every weapon. It’s mostly a camp fest since nothing besides maybe ammo or a powerup needs to be seached for, and ends up mostly as a boring railgun cover shooter. Other modes, much like Reach AR/Pistol starts force people to move around the map for power weapons, and adds map control as another skill to learn.
SpartanHex wrote:
DMR is my favorite weapon on the whole franchise but starting with it EVERY TIME is really boring... I can't believe i'm starting to miss those old AR + pistol starts.
This is the best post I've seen so far. Bless you.
I don't think TU DMR is a problem, but if 343 wanted to make the DMR slightly less effective against vehicles, I wouldn't really feel bad. If they raised the TTK by 1 shot (maybe 2 shots?) vs. Warthogs it might make the vehicle more useful.

With the DMR, you always feel like you have a chance against anyone with any weapon, even though there are weapons that are clearly better at short/long range.
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