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xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
for the love of god pls I can't play slayer anymore caz its all dmr start and every other game mode sept action sack and griffball are constant dmr slayer at least make a competitive classic slayer for thoughts that don't want to deal with it. I CAN'T STAND IT ANY MORE EVERY -Yoinking!- GAME DMR SLAYER SOMEONE AT 343 HAS A HARD ON FOR THE DMR THIS NEED TO BE FIXED EATHER CHANGE THE NUMBERS AROUND SO DMR SLAYER SHOWS LESS THAN 90% OR ADD CLASSIC SLAYER TO COMPETITIVE GAMES THIS -Yoink- IS STUPID SUCH A EASY FIX A NUMBER CHANGE OR AD 1 LINE OF CODE TO THE MENU TO ADD ANOTHER GAME MODE -Yoink-.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the topic at hand.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
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22 days later and noobs are still crying about DMR starts lol.
22 days later and sweaty DMR bois are still pretending that there aren't legitimate reasons for why DMR starts are problematic and that we are all just noobs lol
DMR gets old really fast. It's not a unique weapon, it's not interesting. If i wanted generic weapons i'd go for any other game than Halo. This is a game that offers so much more. Don't throw it away.
Answer is simple, although it really does feel since 343 took over Halo they have catered more to the competitive players over the casuals.

Just give the players what they want, allow them to choose what kind of game they want to play, whether it be competitive and sweaty or just straight forward and casual. Vanilla Reach was built in such a way that invited casuals into Halo, while competitive players did away with Reach until TU arrived. Honestly, that's all fine, people prefer their own thing.

But just please 343, I think it's fantastic that Reach is on the MCC with it's upgrades, but I just want to see some changes being made, as in it's current state it's not anywhere close to the quality control of legacy Reach.
I feel like DMR starts have to go, most of the maps are unplayable with DMR starts (especially the Hang em high and blood gulch remakes), it's just too OP and people don't bother picking up other weapons because one or 2 players with a DMR will easily pick them off. Bomb and flag matches are a complete joke because vehicles are reduced to junk as soon as the other team nears the objective in a Warthog due to all the DMR fire.

AR and pistol starts should at least be trialed, because these DMR starts clearly aren't working.
xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
Quake is one of the most competitive FPS games ever and controlling power weapons is exactly how it works. Halo is an arena shooter, and this is how arena shooters work.
UncleMosin wrote:
xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
Quake is one of the most competitive FPS games ever and controlling power weapons is exactly how it works. Halo is an arena shooter, and this is how arena shooters work.
In just two sentences, you have managed to say many, many wrong things. Comparing Halo to Quake is very disingenuous. Halo has always occupied an awkward midground between classic arena shooters and more modern FPS, comparing Quake and Halo is like comparing apples to oranges. Quake has fast strafes and bunnyhops, compared to Halo's relatively plodding movement. Quake also has the important distinction of letting you carry every weapon in the game at once, compared to Halo's 2 weapon restriction.

Furthermore, Quake is not about "controlling power weapons" because there are no power weapons in Quake, that concept doesn't exist. Quake is focused around good movement in fights, as well as predicting your opponent's movement, not just in the fight but also around the map as well. Go actually watch a pro Quake Live or Quake 3 match. If the match settings don't start them with every weapon available, then they often pickup most weapons near instantly, and the rest of the match is focused around timing Health and Armor power-ups and actual gunplay. Here, I'll link you a match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU6v8C1pw8Y

You'll also notice that Quake is mostly played in 1v1 Duels, compared to Halo which has most often been focused around 4v4 Teams.

AR/Mag is not good for competitive Halo (or well, competitive Classic Halo, 5 is the outlier, along with CE since CE Mag is stupid good) because Halo's slower movement and 2 weapon restriction, along with the fact that weapons are often placed much more sparsely around the map and the fact that AR/Mag have very poor range and generally fail as jack of all trades, means that competitive matches would turn into snowbally, volatile affairs. Which is great for casual FFA, but would give heart attacks to pros. There's a reason BR/DMR reigns supreme in competitive Halo circles.
UncleMosin wrote:
xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
Quake is one of the most competitive FPS games ever and controlling power weapons is exactly how it works. Halo is an arena shooter, and this is how arena shooters work.
In just two sentences, you have managed to say many, many wrong things. Comparing Halo to Quake is very disingenuous. Halo has always occupied an awkward midground between classic arena shooters and more modern FPS, comparing Quake and Halo is like comparing apples to oranges. Quake has fast strafes and bunnyhops, compared to Halo's relatively plodding movement. Quake also has the important distinction of letting you carry every weapon in the game at once, compared to Halo's 2 weapon restriction.

Furthermore, Quake is not about "controlling power weapons" because there are no power weapons in Quake, that concept doesn't exist. Quake is focused around good movement in fights, as well as predicting your opponent's movement, not just in the fight but also around the map as well. Go actually watch a pro Quake Live or Quake 3 match. If the match settings don't start them with every weapon available, then they often pickup most weapons near instantly, and the rest of the match is focused around timing Health and Armor power-ups and actual gunplay. Here, I'll link you a match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU6v8C1pw8Y

You'll also notice that Quake is mostly played in 1v1 Duels, compared to Halo which has most often been focused around 4v4 Teams.

AR/Mag is not good for competitive Halo (or well, competitive Classic Halo, 5 is the outlier, along with CE since CE Mag is stupid good) because Halo's slower movement and 2 weapon restriction, along with the fact that weapons are often placed much more sparsely around the map and the fact that AR/Mag have very poor range and generally fail as jack of all trades, means that competitive matches would turn into snowbally, volatile affairs. Which is great for casual FFA, but would give heart attacks to pros. There's a reason BR/DMR reigns supreme in competitive Halo circles.
to be quite honest does anybody actually give a -Yoink- about the competitive mode in reach? halo is a party game and yeah sure there's the place for a competitive scene but they should get their own balancing that is completely distinct from the casual modes. 95% of players are playing casual playlists, and fixing the issues that are causing OVERWHELMING community response should be the priority. presently those most major issues are audio bugs, the lack of reporting, and dmr starts. the easiest one to fix that also affects literally EVERYONE (cuz I ain't had audio problems or the need to report anyone personally and I'm sure the same applies to many other players) is the dmr starts. just remove dmr starts from casual playlists lmao
UncleMosin wrote:
xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
Quake is one of the most competitive FPS games ever and controlling power weapons is exactly how it works. Halo is an arena shooter, and this is how arena shooters work.
In just two sentences, you have managed to say many, many wrong things. Comparing Halo to Quake is very disingenuous. Halo has always occupied an awkward midground between classic arena shooters and more modern FPS, comparing Quake and Halo is like comparing apples to oranges. Quake has fast strafes and bunnyhops, compared to Halo's relatively plodding movement. Quake also has the important distinction of letting you carry every weapon in the game at once, compared to Halo's 2 weapon restriction.

Furthermore, Quake is not about "controlling power weapons" because there are no power weapons in Quake, that concept doesn't exist. Quake is focused around good movement in fights, as well as predicting your opponent's movement, not just in the fight but also around the map as well. Go actually watch a pro Quake Live or Quake 3 match. If the match settings don't start them with every weapon available, then they often pickup most weapons near instantly, and the rest of the match is focused around timing Health and Armor power-ups and actual gunplay. Here, I'll link you a match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tU6v8C1pw8Y

You'll also notice that Quake is mostly played in 1v1 Duels, compared to Halo which has most often been focused around 4v4 Teams.

AR/Mag is not good for competitive Halo (or well, competitive Classic Halo, 5 is the outlier, along with CE since CE Mag is stupid good) because Halo's slower movement and 2 weapon restriction, along with the fact that weapons are often placed much more sparsely around the map and the fact that AR/Mag have very poor range and generally fail as jack of all trades, means that competitive matches would turn into snowbally, volatile affairs. Which is great for casual FFA, but would give heart attacks to pros. There's a reason BR/DMR reigns supreme in competitive Halo circles.
to be quite honest does anybody actually give a -Yoink- about the competitive mode in reach? halo is a party game and yeah sure there's the place for a competitive scene but they should get their own balancing that is completely distinct from the casual modes. 95% of players are playing casual playlists, and fixing the issues that are causing OVERWHELMING community response should be the priority. presently those most major issues are audio bugs, the lack of reporting, and dmr starts. the easiest one to fix that also affects literally EVERYONE (cuz I ain't had audio problems or the need to report anyone personally and I'm sure the same applies to many other players) is the dmr starts. just remove dmr starts from casual playlists lmao
If you would look at my other posts in this thread, I do advocate for AR/Mag in Social Playlists.

That string of posts was specifically responding to two people who thought that AR/Mag should be for Ranked as well.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not bypass the word filter. Do not post inappropriate content
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
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It's not the DMR all that much, it's more because they are using the TU. The vanilla DMR is more balanced with the rest of the weapon sandbox. Pistol AR starts are what was intended for the game so I agree. They should switch to vanilla settings and have pistol AR starts.
The pistol has plenty enough range to allow players to fight at range, in fact in comparison to halo 2-3 the pistol is reach's version of the battle rifle. The dmr on the other hand is an across the map mini sniper rifle, all players starting with such a monster invalidates half of the weapons and vehicles in the game, slowing it down to a pop and shot plinking contest, which isn't what halo is about.
Honestly, I fully agree with the OP here. The DMR start needs to be an option you can turn off. This isn'tbecause I dislike the DMR, but because it is such a strong weapon. Its an excellent choice at short, medium, long, and extreme range, and is a better choice then nearly every other weapon in Reach. Nothing would change in a DMR start if you removed every weapon from the map, because there's no point in grabbing any other weapon.

Shotguns, Swords, and Gravity Hammers? The only time I get killed by those is if I get caught by surprise by someone crouching, and I fail to notice them. Even then, when it comes to swords I'm generally quick enough with an Armor Lock/Punch combo to kill who ever lunged at me.

ARs, Plasma Rifles, ect.? Who needs them? The DMR is more effective then any automatic in the game. A few headshots and a melee deals with them, and if they're out of melee range then the DMR still wins.

DMR vs Needle Rifle? Ehhh, close call here...with the reduced bloom I personally find the DMR is slightly stronger. Usually I find it all comes down to who shoots first

Long Range weapons like the Sniper Rifle? You really better make sure you get that head shot, cause otherwise you'll be pelted with DMR shots and be unable to scope back in. Often times people who use Sniper Rifles will use it to take down my shields, then swap to a DMR for the finishing blow simply because it is just as accurate and shoots faster

Even in Halo 3, when you started with the BR you could look for a better gun, because while the BR was a fine weapon it did not outclass everything at every range.
xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
You're right - perhaps dynamic was the wrong word. The point about consistency is good, but I'd argue a point that I made in another reply; the real problem to me is the maps. They feel way worse to play compared to almost all Halo 3 maps. Whether it's the spawning or the lack of symmetry or something else, they just don't feel as good, and I think the DMR start is a symptom of that.

I never had any issues with the ranked modes in Halo 3 (and to my point, I played very competitively) when you didn't start with a BR (unless playing team BRs mode). Also makes me miss the BR, I really don't like the DMR and the gameplay it encourages in general. Maybe that's where I'm drawing my experience from. You had to be really good with the BR to compete with someone with a sniper.
xstickss wrote:
xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
You're right - perhaps dynamic was the wrong word. The point about consistency is good, but I'd argue a point that I made in another reply; the real problem to me is the maps. They feel way worse to play compared to almost all Halo 3 maps. Whether it's the spawning or the lack of symmetry or something else, they just don't feel as good, and I think the DMR start is a symptom of that.

It’s because the maps were designed for the Vanilla settings, not the TU settings. The whole weapon sandbox, in fact the whole game was not purposed for the TU settings at all.
xstickss wrote:
xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
You're right - perhaps dynamic was the wrong word. The point about consistency is good, but I'd argue a point that I made in another reply; the real problem to me is the maps. They feel way worse to play compared to almost all Halo 3 maps. Whether it's the spawning or the lack of symmetry or something else, they just don't feel as good, and I think the DMR start is a symptom of that.

It’s because the maps were designed for the Vanilla settings, not the TU settings. The whole weapon sandbox, in fact the whole game was not purposed for the TU settings at all.
You mean the vanilla settings that included DMR starts as an option from day one of Reach and had DMR starts as standard in BTB, those vanilla settings? Spoiler alert, bad maps are going to stay bad no matter what you spawn with, likewise badly designed weapons are going to stay bad no matter what you spawn with. It seems like some of y'all are finally coming to grips with the fact that Reach has some god awful maps some 9 years after the fact...

The most significant thing the TU changes in terms of overall balance is the Needle Rifle which IMO needed the help to make it stand out from the DMR. Otherwise the auto's get some advantages in melee combat, but not much beyond that. The overall balance of Reach, for better or worse, doesn't actually change. The DMR's minimum, paced killtime is decreased somewhat but that doesn't affect its overall position relative to other weapons in the sandbox, especially when that killtime is still molasses slow by most Halo standards.

The majority of the sandbox is still perfectly fine in TU DMR starts or vanilla DMR, the maps were flawed long before Reach's weapon balance was finalized.
WerepyreND wrote:
xstickss wrote:
xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
You're right - perhaps dynamic was the wrong word. The point about consistency is good, but I'd argue a point that I made in another reply; the real problem to me is the maps. They feel way worse to play compared to almost all Halo 3 maps. Whether it's the spawning or the lack of symmetry or something else, they just don't feel as good, and I think the DMR start is a symptom of that.

It’s because the maps were designed for the Vanilla settings, not the TU settings. The whole weapon sandbox, in fact the whole game was not purposed for the TU settings at all.
You mean the vanilla settings that included DMR starts as an option from day one of Reach and had DMR starts as standard in BTB, those vanilla settings? Spoiler alert, bad maps are going to stay bad no matter what you spawn with, likewise badly designed weapons are going to stay bad no matter what you spawn with. It seems like some of y'all are finally coming to grips with the fact that Reach has some god awful maps some 9 years after the fact...

The most significant thing the TU changes in terms of overall balance is the Needle Rifle which IMO needed the help to make it stand out from the DMR. Otherwise the auto's get some advantages in melee combat, but not much beyond that. The overall balance of Reach, for better or worse, doesn't actually change. The DMR's minimum, paced killtime is decreased somewhat but that doesn't affect its overall position relative to other weapons in the sandbox, especially when that killtime is still molasses slow by most Halo standards.

The majority of the sandbox is still perfectly fine in TU DMR starts or vanilla DMR, the maps were flawed long before Reach's weapon balance was finalized.
DMR starts didn't happen in BtB until post TU.
Some bombs wrote:
WerepyreND wrote:
xstickss wrote:
xstickss wrote:
Pillow119 wrote:
The DMR is a fun weapon, should just be a pickup, not removed. Honestly, I'm very shocked at those poll results but thats still half the people wanting DMR starts and the others wanting AR/Magnum starts. What I'm sad about is that DMR-start people already have their gamemodes in Team Hardcore and others, meanwhile the AR/Magnum start people only have, like, FFA and Invasion (for the first phase).

Guess simply adding a Classic AR/Magnum setting would fix all the issues. Could even add DMR start BTB to ranked, and keep the AR/Magnum BTB in social.
Honestly if anything, the AR/Mag start should be Ranked, and DMR be social.

AR/Mag allows for way more dynamic gameplay.
Dynamic isn't what makes good competitive games. Pros and people who grind ranked want consistency. AR/Mag encourages aggressive play and rushing for power weapons, which makes for fun casual games, but i'll never argue it's competitive.
You're right - perhaps dynamic was the wrong word. The point about consistency is good, but I'd argue a point that I made in another reply; the real problem to me is the maps. They feel way worse to play compared to almost all Halo 3 maps. Whether it's the spawning or the lack of symmetry or something else, they just don't feel as good, and I think the DMR start is a symptom of that.

It’s because the maps were designed for the Vanilla settings, not the TU settings. The whole weapon sandbox, in fact the whole game was not purposed for the TU settings at all.
You mean the vanilla settings that included DMR starts as an option from day one of Reach and had DMR starts as standard in BTB, those vanilla settings? Spoiler alert, bad maps are going to stay bad no matter what you spawn with, likewise badly designed weapons are going to stay bad no matter what you spawn with. It seems like some of y'all are finally coming to grips with the fact that Reach has some god awful maps some 9 years after the fact...

The most significant thing the TU changes in terms of overall balance is the Needle Rifle which IMO needed the help to make it stand out from the DMR. Otherwise the auto's get some advantages in melee combat, but not much beyond that. The overall balance of Reach, for better or worse, doesn't actually change. The DMR's minimum, paced killtime is decreased somewhat but that doesn't affect its overall position relative to other weapons in the sandbox, especially when that killtime is still molasses slow by most Halo standards.

The majority of the sandbox is still perfectly fine in TU DMR starts or vanilla DMR, the maps were flawed long before Reach's weapon balance was finalized.
DMR starts didn't happen in BtB until post TU.
Imagine actually believing this, like what do you think you are accomplishing here? This isn't up for debate fam.
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