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The “leveling the playing field” argument:A lot of people argue that non-DMR starts such as AR/Pistol will have one good team controlling power weapons/DMRs who will then proceed to trash the other team. The thing is that this has always been a part of Halo. A good team with knowledge of the power weapon spawns ect will win against a worse team. Also, a very important point is that a good map will have several DMRs/Battle rifles spawning on each side of the map. This has been the case in Halo 2 and 3. It is very hard for a team to control all DMR spawns and power weapon spawns at the same time for a considerable amount of time, especially with vehicles on the map. A good map “levels the playing field” on its own.
People complain about this? This is literally the way the game is meant to be played.
I feel like this topic is irrelevant. DMR is not noob friendly it takes 5 shots and a head shot to kill someone. Don't ruin the game for everyone else because you can't hit your shots. Also the connection based halo 1 pistol with RNG spread is so much less skill than the actual accurate DMR of Halo Reach or BR of Halo 2. I'm glad there is less AR start in the game. Those games are completely based on power weapons and set ups and only give advantages to whole teams. How are you supposed to kill anyone on a team of 4 with power weapons if your teammates are pooping their pants with ARs. Keep it the way it is. Let us play cross platform and toggle input options and network options for matchmaking and it will be balanced.
You are wrong. The DMR has never taken 6 shots to kill. It takes 4 body shots + 1 head shot to kill or ***4 head shots with the new bleedthrough system the TU introduced.***

***EDIT***: After some testing, I think this is likely false. Apologies, I read it somewhere and believed it to be true based on experiences I had in-game.
EDIT 2: Actually it isn't false, maybe it just isn't active in BTB for some reason. You can see it in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XyyRhUsnWY
I don't get why this issue even needs to be debated because it's just so obvious. People AREN'T complaining about TU Game modes. The issue is it's the ONLY game mode. For everything.

You want to play objectivce? DMR starts. BTB? DMR starts etc. I have maybe played... 7 matches that weren't DMR starts and im level 77.
People aren't asking for something that is really hard to fix. It's extremely simple, they literally just change the game types in matchmaking. It doesn't require any patches or big bug fixing or nothing. There is no excuse for them not addressing it.

Now I don't mean to alarm anyone but the player-base is dying and those remaining are pissed. I played a BTB match the other day and the players on both teams refused to play and instead just jumped around in the center because they knew the game would end in 0-0. What's the reason for them behaving this way? Because they don't like the maps, the balance on some are crap and a lot of the game modes are stupid ones that no one likes. DMR is one problem in all of this, but it's important, people hate it.

I DONT CARE if I get a TU match every now and then, but to force your player base to play this crap game mode that was never the default, that's the issue. Plain and simple. It shouldn't even need to be a debate it's just a fact.
People AREN'T complaining about TU Game modes.
I am, the TU sucks and has ruined the game balance.
People AREN'T complaining about TU Game modes.
I am, the TU sucks and has ruined the game balance.
Yea but lets be honest, it was in the 360 version, it existed but it was a 10-20% chance kinda thing. TBH it's fine like that. What we all want is the normal mode to be the default.
"Reach wasn't that good, DMR starts were always commonplace and TU is something the entire community wanted."

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive37.pl?read=1091242

Don't ever listen or believe these people. Reach had 700k-900k daily players a year after release. The game was very popular among the general Halo community and gaming community as a whole.

They lie because they want to create a fictional world where everyone wants every Halo game to play exactly like H2 with BR starts. Look at the TU. It does everything it can to make Reach play more like Halo 2. And according to this very snall, very vocal minority of players that like perma-DMR-TU-Reach, this is what everyone wanted.

Except it wasn't. Halo Reach had a community of 700k-900k until the TU was implemented, then the population sharply declined. People liked Bungie's Reach, hated 343's TU Reach.

700k players - vanilla Reach
5k players - TU Reach

Never listen to these people. Ever. They will literally fabricate stories like "DMR starts were what everyone voted for in 2010" (no it wasnt, everyone voted for regular Slayer) and that the TU helped Reach and was what everyone wanted.
"Reach wasn't that good, DMR starts were always commonplace and TU is something the entire community wanted."

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive37.pl?read=1091242

Don't ever listen or believe these people. Reach had 700k-900k daily players a year after release. The game was very popular among the general Halo community and gaming community as a whole.

They lie because they want to create a fictional world where everyone wants every Halo game to play exactly like H2 with BR starts. Look at the TU. It does everything it can to make Reach play more like Halo 2. And according to this very snall, very vocal minority of players that like perma-DMR-TU-Reach, this is what everyone wanted.

Except it wasn't. Halo Reach had a community of 700k-900k until the TU was implemented, then the population sharply declined. People liked Bungie's Reach, hated 343's TU Reach.

700k players - vanilla Reach
5k players - TU Reach

Never listen to these people. Ever. They will literally fabricate stories like "DMR starts were what everyone voted for in 2010" (no it wasnt, everyone voted for regular Slayer) and that the TU helped Reach and was what everyone wanted.
Can you post an imgur link to the data for those of us who dont have a photobucket account?
"Reach wasn't that good, DMR starts were always commonplace and TU is something the entire community wanted."

http://forums.bungie.org/halo/archive37.pl?read=1091242

Don't ever listen or believe these people. Reach had 700k-900k daily players a year after release. The game was very popular among the general Halo community and gaming community as a whole.

They lie because they want to create a fictional world where everyone wants every Halo game to play exactly like H2 with BR starts. Look at the TU. It does everything it can to make Reach play more like Halo 2. And according to this very snall, very vocal minority of players that like perma-DMR-TU-Reach, this is what everyone wanted.

Except it wasn't. Halo Reach had a community of 700k-900k until the TU was implemented, then the population sharply declined. People liked Bungie's Reach, hated 343's TU Reach.

700k players - vanilla Reach
5k players - TU Reach

Never listen to these people. Ever. They will literally fabricate stories like "DMR starts were what everyone voted for in 2010" (no it wasnt, everyone voted for regular Slayer) and that the TU helped Reach and was what everyone wanted.
Oh hey speaking of lies: receipts. After the TU released the population started trending upward which more or less continued in January. This particular posters data sadly ends at that point but we do have the graphs that line up with XBL Charts and previous entries in the archive that demonstrate a dropoff well before the TU actually launched in December and started to recover after the TU releases which more or less stays level until Halo 4 releases.

Who is fabricating stories again?
So you think a slight uptick in activity during a massive patch, without showing the increased downward trend afterwards, is your counter-proof? Okay bud, stay in school.

@Viperspider sure, when I get home from work
So you think a slight uptick in activity during a massive patch, without showing the increased downward trend afterwards, is your counter-proof? Okay bud, stay in school.

@Viperspider sure, when I get home from work
Considering it is a consistent improvement in January and most of December over the previous that also coincides with a rise in the XBL rankings in later months I going to go with yes. Especially considering that any proof is a lot more than the no proof you provided that the TU dropped the population of hundreds of thousands to 5 thousand over any length of time.

So when is this gigantic drop supposed to have happened?

Also Viperspider the population data per day is all below the graphs.
Yeah because the game has the same head shot registration issues on m&k and controller. Therefore making them even beyond aim assist. I've played plenty of both to know that the registration is spotty and the servers are questionable. Sorry I don't only play 100 games of social (with bloom) and complain about DMRs. I ran plenty of social the other day and realized yes the headshots are more randomized and RNG from the bloom yet you are just complaining about DMRs. I also got tons of AR start slayer matches so I don't understand what your complaint is other than you don't properly use the DMR and you wish it was removed from social play XD
Yeah because the game has the same head shot registration issues on m&k and controller. Therefore making them even beyond aim assist. I've played plenty of both to know that the registration is spotty and the servers are questionable. Sorry I don't only play 100 games of social (with bloom) and complain about DMRs. I ran plenty of social the other day and realized yes the headshots are more randomized and RNG from the bloom yet you are just complaining about DMRs. I also got tons of AR start slayer matches so I don't understand what your complaint is other than you don't properly use the DMR and you wish it was removed from social play XD
Interesting, you got "tons" of AR starts when Im yet to find a player that has got more than 10 in their entire time playing the game and some are tier 100. Also interesting that most people here say the same... I would assume you're greatly exaggerating when you say "tons".

Also it's always amusing when people play the "you don't know how to use it" card. Who said they were getting beat by it? I come first in most matches. It doesn't mean I like it though. I know how to use a DMR. But do you think it's fun spamming DMR from cover for an entire match? Cause I sure as hell don't, it's boring. I miss.... oh I don't know.... maybe leaving cover into the open for more than 5 seconds without being spammed fired?

A reminder to everyone as well that this guy is basically saying the following. "I do well in matches, therefore there is nothing wrong with DMR starts". @SPARTAkickASS, I don't think people are saying "Oh I can't win and it's the DMR's fault" People are saying "I want to play NORMAL Halo Reach" Not some extra game type.
Yeah because the game has the same head shot registration issues on m&k and controller. Therefore making them even beyond aim assist. I've played plenty of both to know that the registration is spotty and the servers are questionable. Sorry I don't only play 100 games of social (with bloom) and complain about DMRs. I ran plenty of social the other day and realized yes the headshots are more randomized and RNG from the bloom yet you are just complaining about DMRs. I also got tons of AR start slayer matches so I don't understand what your complaint is other than you don't properly use the DMR and you wish it was removed from social play XD
Interesting, you got "tons" of AR starts when Im yet to find a player that has got more than 10 in their entire time playing the game and some are tier 100. Also interesting that most people here say the same... I would assume you're greatly exaggerating when you say "tons".

Also it's always amusing when people play the "you don't know how to use it" card. Who said they were getting beat by it? I come first in most matches. It doesn't mean I like it though. I know how to use a DMR. But do you think it's fun spamming DMR from cover for an entire match? Cause I sure as hell don't, it's boring. I miss.... oh I don't know.... maybe leaving cover into the open for more than 5 seconds without being spammed fired?

A reminder to everyone as well that this guy is basically saying the following. "I do well in matches, therefore there is nothing wrong with DMR starts". @SPARTAkickASS, I don't think people are saying "Oh I can't win and it's the DMR's fault" People are saying "I want to play NORMAL Halo Reach" Not some extra game type.
The extra game type would be adding AR starts to games that shouldn’t have it. Play social 4v4 slayer and there’s a 50% chance you get AR start. I remember old halo reach and guess what gun I remember using as a big team noob... the DMR. I don’t remember the game every being a majority of AR start and hoarding power weapons. Sorry that this implementation of the old game makes so many of you upset you have to aim with precision. If it’s so awful stop playing it or figure out what you like 😂 I also didn’t say get good or get used to it. I simply saw the owner of this post only played 100 games (social bloom) and had 500 kills and 1300 deaths. These are the classic stats of someone unfamiliar with halo. I personally think people of such inexperience shouldn’t be on here complaining about making huge changes to the game which would cut off an entire portion of the fan base. It won’t happen and 343 isn’t listening. They are simply a filter for these complaints so they can hand the real ones to the actual studios working on this game. A ton of people don’t understand what is going on in production and still probably won’t. It’s pretty sad to get on these forums and see.
Yeah because the game has the same head shot registration issues on m&k and controller. Therefore making them even beyond aim assist. I've played plenty of both to know that the registration is spotty and the servers are questionable. Sorry I don't only play 100 games of social (with bloom) and complain about DMRs. I ran plenty of social the other day and realized yes the headshots are more randomized and RNG from the bloom yet you are just complaining about DMRs. I also got tons of AR start slayer matches so I don't understand what your complaint is other than you don't properly use the DMR and you wish it was removed from social play XD
Interesting, you got "tons" of AR starts when Im yet to find a player that has got more than 10 in their entire time playing the game and some are tier 100. Also interesting that most people here say the same... I would assume you're greatly exaggerating when you say "tons".

Also it's always amusing when people play the "you don't know how to use it" card. Who said they were getting beat by it? I come first in most matches. It doesn't mean I like it though. I know how to use a DMR. But do you think it's fun spamming DMR from cover for an entire match? Cause I sure as hell don't, it's boring. I miss.... oh I don't know.... maybe leaving cover into the open for more than 5 seconds without being spammed fired?

A reminder to everyone as well that this guy is basically saying the following. "I do well in matches, therefore there is nothing wrong with DMR starts". @SPARTAkickASS, I don't think people are saying "Oh I can't win and it's the DMR's fault" People are saying "I want to play NORMAL Halo Reach" Not some extra game type.
The extra game type would be adding AR starts to games that shouldn’t have it. Play social 4v4 slayer and there’s a 50% chance you get AR start. I remember old halo reach and guess what gun I remember using as a big team noob... the DMR. I don’t remember the game every being a majority of AR start and hoarding power weapons. Sorry that this implementation of the old game makes so many of you upset you have to aim with precision. If it’s so awful stop playing it or figure out what you like 😂 I also didn’t say get good or get used to it. I simply saw the owner of this post only played 100 games (social bloom) and had 500 kills and 1300 deaths. These are the classic stats of someone unfamiliar with halo. I personally think people of such inexperience shouldn’t be on here complaining about making huge changes to the game which would cut off an entire portion of the fan base. It won’t happen and 343 isn’t listening. They are simply a filter for these complaints so they can hand the real ones to the actual studios working on this game. A ton of people don’t understand what is going on in production and still probably won’t. It’s pretty sad to get on these forums and see.
@NZL King Prawn Dont waste your time talking to this troll. It could be more obvious that he is trolling when he said "I don’t remember the game every being a majority of AR start and hoarding power weapons." since this is literally the concept Halo multiplayer has always been based around. Not to mention, most of what he's saying is typical bait - looking up poster's stats, saying things along the lines of "you just dont like it because you're bad", not actually presenting any counterpoints.
I wonder if people actually think DMR starts take more skill than AR/Magnum starts because they don't. Objectively speaking AR/Magnum starts take far more skill since you need to know when to switch to the proper gun per situation.
WerepyreND wrote:
There isn't a "DMR Start Problem." There is a vehicle damage system problem and map design problems, the DMR was always a scapegoat to avoid looking at Reach's deeper flaws.

The chip damage system for vehicles ruined vehicle combat in Reach and every game that came after it. It doesn't matter whether you spawn with the DMR or not those issues still persist, especially when hitscan is in play.

As far as a "level playing field" argument goes, there has never been enough utility pickups to go around, which makes it incredibly easy to predict and counter fresh spawns. They either A.) Travel via a sheltered path so you know where they will be coming from B.) They will be running towards a utility weapon in which case they will be either out of the fight for a spell or not have enough of them to turn the tide. or C.) They don't have time to get to anything else and get killed without being able to fight back.

The few utility weapons that the losing team can get a hold of is rarely enough to turn the tide against a competent team that has enough utility weapons and power weapons to go around for their whole team. Halo demands a utility weapon off spawn to keep games competitive and balanced for everyone involved.

There is a reason AR/Pistol is the de facto setup for CE. There is a reason players demanded BR starts in Halo 2 and 3. There is a reason players demanded DMR starts in Reach. There is a reason most player chose to spawn with at least one precision weapon in Halo 4. And there is a reason Halo 5 never had any equivalent of a SMG or AR start to begin with. It is because Halo plays better when players spawn with a utility weapon regardless of other issues the games have.

AR/Pistol starts shouldn't even be in the game.
This quote perfectly explains why DMR starts are a necessity. Please read this with an open mind if you disagree.
KnightFJS wrote:
I wonder if people actually think DMR starts take more skill than AR/Magnum starts because they don't. Objectively speaking AR/Magnum starts take far more skill since you need to know when to switch to the proper gun per situation.
And know where the weapon spawns are. Learning item spawns isn't that difficult if the only ones you need to know are Sniper and Rocket Launcher.
This post has been edited by a moderator. Please do not flame or attack other members.
*Original post. Click at your own discretion.
Spoiler:
Show
Heads up, 343 may have actually listened.

https://www.halowaypoint.com/en-us/forums/f3681fbc78fa43878c4aec9a63a46224/topics/mcc-multiplayer-feedback-pc/46d5cc54-4a2d-478d-89c6-ec27fd8ef84a/posts?page=88#post1760
Yeah because the game has the same head shot registration issues on m&k and controller. Therefore making them even beyond aim assist. I've played plenty of both to know that the registration is spotty and the servers are questionable. Sorry I don't only play 100 games of social (with bloom) and complain about DMRs. I ran plenty of social the other day and realized yes the headshots are more randomized and RNG from the bloom yet you are just complaining about DMRs. I also got tons of AR start slayer matches so I don't understand what your complaint is other than you don't properly use the DMR and you wish it was removed from social play XD
Interesting, you got "tons" of AR starts when Im yet to find a player that has got more than 10 in their entire time playing the game and some are tier 100. Also interesting that most people here say the same... I would assume you're greatly exaggerating when you say "tons".

Also it's always amusing when people play the "you don't know how to use it" card. Who said they were getting beat by it? I come first in most matches. It doesn't mean I like it though. I know how to use a DMR. But do you think it's fun spamming DMR from cover for an entire match? Cause I sure as hell don't, it's boring. I miss.... oh I don't know.... maybe leaving cover into the open for more than 5 seconds without being spammed fired?

A reminder to everyone as well that this guy is basically saying the following. "I do well in matches, therefore there is nothing wrong with DMR starts". @SPARTAkickASS, I don't think people are saying "Oh I can't win and it's the DMR's fault" People are saying "I want to play NORMAL Halo Reach" Not some extra game type.
The extra game type would be adding AR starts to games that shouldn’t have it. Play social 4v4 slayer and there’s a 50% chance you get AR start. I remember old halo reach and guess what gun I remember using as a big team noob... the DMR. I don’t remember the game every being a majority of AR start and hoarding power weapons. Sorry that this implementation of the old game makes so many of you upset you have to aim with precision. If it’s so awful stop playing it or figure out what you like 😂 I also didn’t say get good or get used to it. I simply saw the owner of this post only played 100 games (social bloom) and had 500 kills and 1300 deaths. These are the classic stats of someone unfamiliar with halo. I personally think people of such inexperience shouldn’t be on here complaining about making huge changes to the game which would cut off an entire portion of the fan base. It won’t happen and 343 isn’t listening. They are simply a filter for these complaints so they can hand the real ones to the actual studios working on this game. A ton of people don’t understand what is going on in production and still probably won’t. It’s pretty sad to get on these forums and see.
According to his bio this guy is 21. He was 11 or 10 when Halo Reach was out and 3-4 when Halo 1 was out xD . Let that sink in everyone. Classic 343 fan boy who never actually played Halo.
I'm also 21 however my favorite Halo is Halo 2 followed very closely by Halo 3 and I still remember how excited I was on Christmas 2007 to finally be able to play them after I played Halo at my friend's house. My brother got the newer Halo 3 and I got Halo 2 but I couldn't have been happier to get the older one, probably my best and most well used Christmas present ever.

TLDR: being young doesn't mean you are a 343 fanboy, I prefer the Bungie games FAR more.
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