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Fear of the growing complexity of hacks

OP icim2bad4u

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So I wanted to reach out to the community and hopefully to the team to have some clarification as the progress of hacking is going to jump significantly.
I'm very worried that the game will release and then within 3-4 months be unplayable for about the same time and going in this cycle. The biggest concern for me is how to combat hackers that are now using machine learning. With there being so much incentive for profit im really concerned that the dev's wont be able to keep up with the machines. Is there any way to actually counter this?
icim2bad4u wrote:
So I wanted to reach out to the community and hopefully to the team to have some clarification as the progress of hacking is going to jump significantly.
I'm very worried that the game will release and then within 3-4 months be unplayable for about the same time and going in this cycle. The biggest concern for me is how to combat hackers that are now using machine learning. With there being so much incentive for profit im really concerned that the dev's wont be able to keep up with the machines. Is there any way to actually counter this?
Wow- people are now using machine learning to cheat in games. I just watched a video tweeted out by "Anti-Cheat Police Department" that shows basically an aimbot working on console that uses machine learning to aim at people. I don't know if this is real or not (or how accessible it really is), but if it is that is actually pretty impressive. They say that it "sends input to your controller whenever it sees a vaild target." I don't know how that works but I don't think it uses some kind of robot arm. This is actually a pretty clever approach. Input from a controller is always blindly trusted. I can't really throw many ideas out there about how to solve this because I honestly don't know specifically how it works.

I will throw some suggestions out for on the PC side of things. If this was used on PC I would imagine that the program would programatically send mouse and keyboard input. The best approach to combatting cheating devices, etc might not be to try and explicitly detect and block but to make it either impossible to use some cheat device or software or really hard to. We might need help from the operating system (Windows). For instance, if the game could ask Windows to disallow sending input programmatically while the game is running. Of course, I could still build a device that plugs into the computer and sends input that way. It is a complicated situation that would require more discussion and consideration. For now, I think the answer is this is something that can't be helped. I'm not saying it is impossible to combat this, I don't have all the information and answers right now. However, I question what the barrier to entry for machine learning cheating really is. How expensive is it? What hardware do you need to make it work? Is the really going to be that common of an issue that we need to worry about it?

As far as generic cheating (like flying around the map) goes, I think this can be helped by not baking all of the anticheat detection in client side. The dedicated server should be able to do basic sanity checks on player actions and reject moves that are obviously over the top or invalid.

I think cheating is always going to be a thing. There is a chance that what you described comes to be reality. It is possible that within a few months the game is rife with cheaters. I have my doubts about this actually happening, at least as badly as you describe it. If it does get that bad and so soon I can imagine or would hope that they would take action. It would be revenue impacting if noone plays your game because of rampant cheating. I don't think this is a problem that lies exclusively on the shoulders of game devs to fix.
icim2bad4u wrote:
So I wanted to reach out to the community and hopefully to the team to have some clarification as the progress of hacking is going to jump significantly.
I'm very worried that the game will release and then within 3-4 months be unplayable for about the same time and going in this cycle. The biggest concern for me is how to combat hackers that are now using machine learning. With there being so much incentive for profit im really concerned that the dev's wont be able to keep up with the machines. Is there any way to actually counter this?
Wow- people are now using machine learning to cheat in games. I just watched a video tweeted out by "Anti-Cheat Police Department" that shows basically an aimbot working on console that uses machine learning to aim at people. I don't know if this is real or not (or how accessible it really is), but if it is that is actually pretty impressive. They say that it "sends input to your controller whenever it sees a vaild target." I don't know how that works but I don't think it uses some kind of robot arm. This is actually a pretty clever approach. Input from a controller is always blindly trusted. I can't really throw many ideas out there about how to solve this because I honestly don't know specifically how it works.

I will throw some suggestions out for on the PC side of things. If this was used on PC I would imagine that the program would programatically send mouse and keyboard input. The best approach to combatting cheating devices, etc might not be to try and explicitly detect and block but to make it either impossible to use some cheat device or software or really hard to. We might need help from the operating system (Windows). For instance, if the game could ask Windows to disallow sending input programmatically while the game is running. Of course, I could still build a device that plugs into the computer and sends input that way. It is a complicated situation that would require more discussion and consideration. For now, I think the answer is this is something that can't be helped. I'm not saying it is impossible to combat this, I don't have all the information and answers right now. However, I question what the barrier to entry for machine learning cheating really is. How expensive is it? What hardware do you need to make it work? Is the really going to be that common of an issue that we need to worry about it?

As far as generic cheating (like flying around the map) goes, I think this can be helped by not baking all of the anticheat detection in client side. The dedicated server should be able to do basic sanity checks on player actions and reject moves that are obviously over the top or invalid.

I think cheating is always going to be a thing. There is a chance that what you described comes to be reality. It is possible that within a few months the game is rife with cheaters. I have my doubts about this actually happening, at least as badly as you describe it. If it does get that bad and so soon I can imagine or would hope that they would take action. It would be revenue impacting if noone plays your game because of rampant cheating. I don't think this is a problem that lies exclusively on the shoulders of game devs to fix.
See I'm thinking that its not very accessible but there is money to be made so it will happen. I have the feeling halo is going to be massive and wherever there is massive games there is money to be made exploiting them. With how readily available they are and how cheap they are is what makes me nervous. also lets not even get into virtual machines. This just seems like an absolute nightmare waiting to happen and I don't want halo to be the one that gets blindsided by it. The only real solution I could think of is a system to detect a never ending incline in skill or something to that affect.
icim2bad4u wrote:
icim2bad4u wrote:
The only real solution I could think of is a system to detect a never ending incline in skill or something to that affect.
You might be on to something with that. I had thought of this too, for instance becoming suspicious if a player always has 100% headshots. The only problem I have with this is how do you differentiate between people who are really good and people who are cheating? It wouldn't be good if the anticheat system locks down pro Halo players. It would also be pretty easy to get around this system by say turning off your cheats for a few games.
If you play on xbox the probability that you find a hacker is almost null, but if you play on pc you may find several, it is more difficult to cheat on a console.
icim2bad4u wrote:
So I wanted to reach out to the community and hopefully to the team to have some clarification as the progress of hacking is going to jump significantly.
I'm very worried that the game will release and then within 3-4 months be unplayable for about the same time and going in this cycle. The biggest concern for me is how to combat hackers that are now using machine learning. With there being so much incentive for profit im really concerned that the dev's wont be able to keep up with the machines. Is there any way to actually counter this?
Cheating is something that can never be truly stopped. Once you roll out a new anti cheat some genius is just gonna find a way to work around it. If there were to be a counter, I was thinking somewhere along the lines of the RIOT Vanguard, the anticheat used for Valorant (learn more here, and here). It is an extremely effective anti cheat, the only problem is that its, well, "methods" are rather controversial. Well, actually there is one more problem, this is only available for PC at the moment (console hacking isnt that common anyway), if 343 magically came up with a way to implement their own version of this system to console, well then cheating would be pretty much solved already.
everything is up to the devs smart brains to make anticheat. i remembered Foward Assault game in mobile had very many hackers. but at the same time the dev can't keep up with the new versions.i hope 343 can keep up. thats the bad thing about PC, mods are good, but when comes mods, there comes cheats, negative cheats. in MCC ever played my first duo slayer H3. and they just reked me, 0-50 they had rockets, and sniper and know where we all spawn, they killed me in a split second, my life time average was like 10 seconds top. ever just spawn and the split second a rocket already killed me.
If you play on xbox the probability that you find a hacker is almost null, but if you play on pc you may find several, it is more difficult to cheat on a console.
It's literally the same cuz of crossplay
Gulchshot wrote:
If you play on xbox the probability that you find a hacker is almost null, but if you play on pc you may find several, it is more difficult to cheat on a console.
It's literally the same cuz of crossplay
First thing I did when crossplay became a thing was disable it. Ain't no way I'm putting up with people doing crap like this. I'm on Xbox.
Gulchshot wrote:
If you play on xbox the probability that you find a hacker is almost null, but if you play on pc you may find several, it is more difficult to cheat on a console.
It's literally the same cuz of crossplay
First thing I did when crossplay became a thing was disable it. Ain't no way I'm putting up with people doing crap like this. I'm on Xbox.
Haven't ran into anything yet. I'm also on Xbox, but with crossplay.
icim2bad4u wrote:
So I wanted to reach out to the community and hopefully to the team to have some clarification as the progress of hacking is going to jump significantly.
I'm very worried that the game will release and then within 3-4 months be unplayable for about the same time and going in this cycle. The biggest concern for me is how to combat hackers that are now using machine learning. With there being so much incentive for profit im really concerned that the dev's wont be able to keep up with the machines. Is there any way to actually counter this?
Cheating is something that can never be truly stopped. Once you roll out a new anti cheat some genius is just gonna find a way to work around it. If there were to be a counter, I was thinking somewhere along the lines of the RIOT Vanguard, the anticheat used for Valorant (learn more here, and here). It is an extremely effective anti cheat, the only problem is that its, well, "methods" are rather controversial. Well, actually there is one more problem, this is only available for PC at the moment (console hacking isnt that common anyway), if 343 magically came up with a way to implement their own version of this system to console, well then cheating would be pretty much solved already.
Effective is not a word you'd give to RIOT's Vanguard anti cheat. Even in the BETA, the game was swarmed with cheaters. Once Ranked came out with full game release, high elo games were swarmed with cheaters. This is part of the reason why lots and lots of people stopped playing the game and turned back to CS:GO. I was one of those people. I'm not going to have a very shady anti-cheat service installed into my machine, that (apparently) scans my computer, especially if it's not as effective as they say.

All in all, I think Microsoft is way more competent than an indie company with 200 years of experience.
icim2bad4u wrote:
So I wanted to reach out to the community and hopefully to the team to have some clarification as the progress of hacking is going to jump significantly.
I'm very worried that the game will release and then within 3-4 months be unplayable for about the same time and going in this cycle. The biggest concern for me is how to combat hackers that are now using machine learning. With there being so much incentive for profit im really concerned that the dev's wont be able to keep up with the machines. Is there any way to actually counter this?
Cheating is something that can never be truly stopped. Once you roll out a new anti cheat some genius is just gonna find a way to work around it. If there were to be a counter, I was thinking somewhere along the lines of the RIOT Vanguard, the anticheat used for Valorant (learn more here, and here). It is an extremely effective anti cheat, the only problem is that its, well, "methods" are rather controversial. Well, actually there is one more problem, this is only available for PC at the moment (console hacking isnt that common anyway), if 343 magically came up with a way to implement their own version of this system to console, well then cheating would be pretty much solved already.
Effective is not a word you'd give to RIOT's Vanguard anti cheat. Even in the BETA, the game was swarmed with cheaters. Once Ranked came out with full game release, high elo games were swarmed with cheaters. This is part of the reason why lots and lots of people stopped playing the game and turned back to CS:GO. I was one of those people. I'm not going to have a very shady anti-cheat service installed into my machine, that (apparently) scans my computer, especially if it's not as effective as they say.

All in all, I think Microsoft is way more competent than an indie company with 200 years of experience.
I totally understand your concern, one of the links I put up there explains your situation. In terms of effectiveness, I didn't say the game was entirely cleansed. Of course there will still be hackers. I'm talking about in terms of relativity here, Vanguard has preformed far better than most other anti cheats, While the method is certainly a bit sus (😳), you cant deny that its showed results. Besides, you stated the games beta phase, the game and anticheat as a whole as been upgraded (here). And you certainly ARE right, I'm sure Microsoft can come up with a much safer way to provide similar results, but in terms of effectiveness, I cant think past the Vanguard (as of now at least)
icim2bad4u wrote:
So I wanted to reach out to the community and hopefully to the team to have some clarification as the progress of hacking is going to jump significantly.
I'm very worried that the game will release and then within 3-4 months be unplayable for about the same time and going in this cycle. The biggest concern for me is how to combat hackers that are now using machine learning. With there being so much incentive for profit im really concerned that the dev's wont be able to keep up with the machines. Is there any way to actually counter this?
Cheating is something that can never be truly stopped. Once you roll out a new anti cheat some genius is just gonna find a way to work around it. If there were to be a counter, I was thinking somewhere along the lines of the RIOT Vanguard, the anticheat used for Valorant (learn more here, and here). It is an extremely effective anti cheat, the only problem is that its, well, "methods" are rather controversial. Well, actually there is one more problem, this is only available for PC at the moment (console hacking isnt that common anyway), if 343 magically came up with a way to implement their own version of this system to console, well then cheating would be pretty much solved already.
Effective is not a word you'd give to RIOT's Vanguard anti cheat. Even in the BETA, the game was swarmed with cheaters. Once Ranked came out with full game release, high elo games were swarmed with cheaters. This is part of the reason why lots and lots of people stopped playing the game and turned back to CS:GO. I was one of those people. I'm not going to have a very shady anti-cheat service installed into my machine, that (apparently) scans my computer, especially if it's not as effective as they say.

All in all, I think Microsoft is way more competent than an indie company with 200 years of experience.
I totally understand your concern, one of the links I put up there explains your situation. In terms of effectiveness, I didn't say the game was entirely cleansed. Of course there will still be hackers. I'm talking about in terms of relativity here, Vanguard has preformed far better than most other anti cheats, While the method is certainly a bit sus (😳), you cant deny that its showed results. Besides, you stated the games beta phase, the game and anticheat as a whole as been upgraded (here). And you certainly ARE right, I'm sure Microsoft can come up with a much safer way to provide similar results, but in terms of effectiveness, I cant think past the Vanguard (as of now at least)
I think, if anything, Vanguard allied with Riot's resolve to maintain a competitive environment on Valorant contributes to its arguable success. Nonetheless, a free FPS without cheats is next to impossible to exist. The facts are that during Closed/Open Beta and shortly after release, Valorant was plagued with cheaters despite Riot's promise that Vanguard would solve the issue with cheaters from day 1. I thank you, however, for letting me know about the Vanguard's update as I haven't played Valorant since then. The high elo games were unplayable with the amount of ESP/Aimbots.

I am glad that we agree that Microsoft would never let something like this slide as Halo is its golden egg goose.
icim2bad4u wrote:
So I wanted to reach out to the community and hopefully to the team to have some clarification as the progress of hacking is going to jump significantly.
I'm very worried that the game will release and then within 3-4 months be unplayable for about the same time and going in this cycle. The biggest concern for me is how to combat hackers that are now using machine learning. With there being so much incentive for profit im really concerned that the dev's wont be able to keep up with the machines. Is there any way to actually counter this?
Cheating is something that can never be truly stopped. Once you roll out a new anti cheat some genius is just gonna find a way to work around it. If there were to be a counter, I was thinking somewhere along the lines of the RIOT Vanguard, the anticheat used for Valorant (learn more here, and here). It is an extremely effective anti cheat, the only problem is that its, well, "methods" are rather controversial. Well, actually there is one more problem, this is only available for PC at the moment (console hacking isnt that common anyway), if 343 magically came up with a way to implement their own version of this system to console, well then cheating would be pretty much solved already.
Effective is not a word you'd give to RIOT's Vanguard anti cheat. Even in the BETA, the game was swarmed with cheaters. Once Ranked came out with full game release, high elo games were swarmed with cheaters. This is part of the reason why lots and lots of people stopped playing the game and turned back to CS:GO. I was one of those people. I'm not going to have a very shady anti-cheat service installed into my machine, that (apparently) scans my computer, especially if it's not as effective as they say.

All in all, I think Microsoft is way more competent than an indie company with 200 years of experience.
I totally understand your concern, one of the links I put up there explains your situation. In terms of effectiveness, I didn't say the game was entirely cleansed. Of course there will still be hackers. I'm talking about in terms of relativity here, Vanguard has preformed far better than most other anti cheats, While the method is certainly a bit sus (😳), you cant deny that its showed results. Besides, you stated the games beta phase, the game and anticheat as a whole as been upgraded (here). And you certainly ARE right, I'm sure Microsoft can come up with a much safer way to provide similar results, but in terms of effectiveness, I cant think past the Vanguard (as of now at least)
In all honesty i dont think their anti-cheat is the right answer and i dont think microsoft can do better at this point having worked in the IT industry with the massive security hole in microsoft currently that has not been patched. There record doesnt hold high hopes as of recent. I think the only way to really solve this issue is to come up with a system that sees in essence a linear curve in skill that doesnt drop off and flag the account and have it reviewed. or for instance if that curve is only lets say 10 mins in a 20 minute game how would that compare to the average player ( a hacker that has a toggle and turns it off when he's called out). i think there should be a system to review match to match performance and see these outliers and overall performance to see if people are only using it when it counts ( to rank up) this is really the only solution I can come up with. fight computers with computers as they should be easier to find/weed out
Unfortunately, with the rapidly growing population of gaming since the beginning of the pandemic and the popularity of online streaming (given how competitive that scene is) Cheating has almost become "normalized" and accepted. As i said about the population though, its become increasingly harder to monitor hackers/cheaters given how many reports they devs would have to sit through. In the Halo 3 era there was still cheaters bridging host, but nothing to the level of hacks/cheats today, back then the banhammer system was brutal and most people had their consoles bricked if they repeatedly went against the MS terms of services. Is there anyway that hardware bans can be done on PC and Xbox today? or is that not really gonna cut it to stamp it out for good?
Unfortunately, with the rapidly growing population of gaming since the beginning of the pandemic and the popularity of online streaming (given how competitive that scene is) Cheating has almost become "normalized" and accepted. As i said about the population though, its become increasingly harder to monitor hackers/cheaters given how many reports they devs would have to sit through. In the Halo 3 era there was still cheaters bridging host, but nothing to the level of hacks/cheats today, back then the banhammer system was brutal and most people had their consoles bricked if they repeatedly went against the MS terms of services. Is there anyway that hardware bans can be done on PC and Xbox today? or is that not really gonna cut it to stamp it out for good?
Hardware bans would not be affective with the use of virtual machines as you can spoof your hardware so that would not be an option
Unfortunately, with the rapidly growing population of gaming since the beginning of the pandemic and the popularity of online streaming (given how competitive that scene is) Cheating has almost become "normalized" and accepted. As i said about the population though, its become increasingly harder to monitor hackers/cheaters given how many reports they devs would have to sit through. In the Halo 3 era there was still cheaters bridging host, but nothing to the level of hacks/cheats today, back then the banhammer system was brutal and most people had their consoles bricked if they repeatedly went against the MS terms of services. Is there anyway that hardware bans can be done on PC and Xbox today? or is that not really gonna cut it to stamp it out for good?
The real problem with Infinite's multiplayer, especially as a F2P title, is the free/public cheats that will, evidently, be available to the public. I just hope that Microsoft has the right mindset to handle the imminent waves of cheaters that will plague the game. I sincerely hope this is not the case, but Activision was handling cheaters well and then they just gave up because it is impossible with Warzone.
view a comment and it is true how to separate someone who is good and a player with hacks, lately start to doubt about some players, I have to see a repetition; I have had some games where a player from far away who looks out from afar kill me as if I had a sniper, precise shots where you can see that bullets are lost but something makes them arrive magically.
Anti-cheat is something that 343 discussed in the April Inside Infinite Blog.
Quote:
Michael VanKuipers: Thanks, Jeff! We knew from the start that delivering an awesome PC game meant taking cheating seriously, and we're committing to doing it in a way that's respectful to the experience of legitimate players. Our anti-cheat philosophy is to make cheating more difficult in ways that don't involve kernel drivers or background services. We've done a lot of work securing the Slipspace engine and developing novel ways to protect and change the game to slow down cheat development. When people do cheat, we're focused on catching them through their behavior and not from data that we've harvested from their machines. Combating cheaters is an ever-evolving arms race, but we're making the tech investments needed today to continue the fight for years to come.
Now I'm hardly a cyber-security expert, I'd argue I know nothing about it, but my interpretation of this is that there will be a program within the game which is actively searching for the same things that players look for when finding cheaters. Think flying characters, faster than usual movement speeds, unexpected damage values or twitchy aim (a sign of auto-aim).

In other words, it sounds like they are using the machine-learning to defeat the machine-learning. If it works like I expect, there should be moments where there are a lot of hackers and moments where there are absolutely none.

Side Note: Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that tech has evolved to the point where we could be pitting two self-learning programs against each other in a anti-cheat/cheat arms race? Have I just been playing too much Mass Effect or do we live in a weird sci-fi future world?
Anti-cheat is something that 343 discussed in the April Inside Infinite Blog.
Quote:
Michael VanKuipers: Thanks, Jeff! We knew from the start that delivering an awesome PC game meant taking cheating seriously, and we're committing to doing it in a way that's respectful to the experience of legitimate players. Our anti-cheat philosophy is to make cheating more difficult in ways that don't involve kernel drivers or background services. We've done a lot of work securing the Slipspace engine and developing novel ways to protect and change the game to slow down cheat development. When people do cheat, we're focused on catching them through their behavior and not from data that we've harvested from their machines. Combating cheaters is an ever-evolving arms race, but we're making the tech investments needed today to continue the fight for years to come.
Now I'm hardly a cyber-security expert, I'd argue I know nothing about it, but my interpretation of this is that there will be a program within the game which is actively searching for the same things that players look for when finding cheaters. Think flying characters, faster than usual movement speeds, unexpected damage values or twitchy aim (a sign of auto-aim).

In other words, it sounds like they are using the machine-learning to defeat the machine-learning. If it works like I expect, there should be moments where there are a lot of hackers and moments where there are absolutely none.

Side Note: Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that tech has evolved to the point where we could be pitting two self-learning programs against each other in a anti-cheat/cheat arms race? Have I just been playing too much Mass Effect or do we live in a weird sci-fi future world?
this is in essence what I'm hoping for and yes it is kind of surreal lmao. Just hope they come out and talk about the anticheat more because with how popular this resurgence is going to be I really don't want to see my favorite franchise best looking game in a decade die out because of the community.
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